EPTI defently find Archons to be valueable to the Protoss army. I merely wonder if going light on the Archons and adding a light amount of Collosus would be more ideal?
[D]PvZ Archon build - Page 7
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
I defently find Archons to be valueable to the Protoss army. I merely wonder if going light on the Archons and adding a light amount of Collosus would be more ideal? | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
I actually like going stargate first though and then switch into zealot/archon. It feels a bit safer as i get scouting options, a way to stop his third and a sort of counter to mutalisk play. Zealot archon straight up can actually have quite some problems against quick muta play. I also just prefer going no sentries or just 1 with this build, I find they only delay archons and guardian shield isn't really that good against zerg especially with this composition. Your zealots are hard to cover and sentries are the only slow unit in a zealot/stalker/archon composition. | ||
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imbecile
563 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On May 15 2011 21:25 imbecile wrote: For mass archon it might be worth it to get shield upgrades with double forge. Helps with the turtling too. Especially if you go a DT path, quite a bit of gas will be freed up in comparison to a HT/Storm path, and DTs have more shield too. I advise against it. To get +3shields, it costs around 4minutes worth of gas harvesting from a single base. The upgrade alone costs almost as much as the Weapon and Armor upgrade combined (sometime like ~150/150 less). You are going to have like four archons 10mins into the game if you try get the shield upgrade early on. Lets say you aim for +2/0/+2 with double forge going the DT route. TC, Upgrades, DS, WG and Say 3 DT's to harass = 1487 Gas~= 4-5 Archons A single base roughly has around 228gas income per minute, you are looking at 6.5mins worth of gas from a single base. That is a huge investment and you have nothing to really make use of it. 1 Shield upgrades are nice, but not early on. The Archons aren't mean to tank damage anyway, it is only a last resort thing, the Zealots should make it so the Archons avoid getting hit. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On May 15 2011 19:51 Xana wrote: I've been playing against this quite a lot lately, and I've found something that I find works pretty darn well actually. If your Zerg opponent spots you lacking Collosus Tech, a very nasty response from the Zerg is to go Hydra ling Infestor with early drop tech. Hydras really rip through Zealots and Archons, and they deal extremely well versus Immortals aswell. The weakness comes in the form of lightning death from storms. On top of that you've got to be extremely agressive with that sort of style. Sitting back and playing a macro only game as Zerg is not going to cut it. I generally noticed that dropping the back and assaulting the front while expanding, generally leaves the protoss slowly dying. Archons and Zealots really aren't that fast - not to talk about the High Templars. Getting good exchanges in somewhat medium sized engagements is not all that hard either. I defently find Archons to be valueable to the Protoss army. I merely wonder if going light on the Archons and adding a light amount of Collosus would be more ideal? Archons are nearly as fast as Stalkers. | ||
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Bulldozor
Denmark74 Posts
I pressure the zerg with the blink stalkers and sometimes outright kill him or atleast his third, as zergs aren't prepared for a big early/mid game push. I continuesly "shark arround" (coined: geoff) and pick off anything i can, i try to deny the third for as long as possible and blink into the main if he moves his army to secure it. It's my experience that the zerg has two responces to seeing this pressure 1) more roaches. If he does so i continue down the collosus path trying to make the zerg max on roaches 2) hydra ling. If he goes for the less common hydra ling build i start throw down the templar archives but don't upgrade storm and add 5-10 gateways (when on 3 base) and max out a chargelot / blink stalker / archon army. If the zerg realizes this, collosus tech isnt to far behind and blink stalkers allow you enough map controll to take a forth on most maps.) (This is also my responce to infestors because feedback is awesome awesome) I should note i tend to grab an early +1 atk (and continue to get + attack instead of armor) as i get the forge for canons anyway and it makes blink stalker harass a lot better. This is what i've been doing PvZ with archons, sorry i don't have time to elaborate much but i thought it was sorta in line with what OP's post is about so i figured it would be worth posting. | ||
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Datum
United States371 Posts
I also agree that pure upgraded roaches might be the answer to this. + Show Spoiler + In this past GSL, we saw NesTea use just a few roaches to fend off 1 archon+zealots. Would the same thing work here? The other possible counter may involve burrow tactics. This would force the protoss to get a robo and obs. The protoss player wouldn't lose the game because of burrow, but their gas, and therefore archons, would be severely delayed. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
I wouldn't shoot directly towards the composition right off the bat because there are builds with more effective timings but its something to keep in mind in the late game. However, its going to be harder to get compared to the BW Dr. Manhattan composition due to limited gas supplies so I suppose you do need a specialized build. That or you start throwing down nexus at expos just for the gas. | ||
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ki11z0ne
United States427 Posts
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SweetAs
New Zealand290 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
You have no actual form of scouting, and the way in which you do your build, you invest virtually everything you have just getting Tech and Infrastructure that you have no army, it comes a live when every Warpgate is up and kicking and it feels like you are playing Zerg, but before then, before your mass gateways go up, you are on 3 sentries, a few Zealots and an Archon or two with only 3/4gateways that you aren't even using. You cant keep up that early in the game to aggresion, making an Archon puts two of your gateways on a 45second cooldown... Sure it is devastating but you cant reinforce fast enough and gets tied up with your other gateway army. I think the composition is strong. However there is a need to hit some sort of mid game timing but you are cutting every corner to get there, you invest into Tech that doesn't pay it self off for a long time, you bank a lot of resources, you build all your infrastructure to support unit production in big bursts rather than a steady flow and to top it all off you have no real way to create a threatening army before everything kicks in. Yes you have storm and Blink in your path, but with no scouting you have no idea if you will need them or not and if you choose to get them blindly, you don't at any point have many of the units that the upgrades actually benefit. TBH, I like the composition, but having no ability to scout and no form of steady army production till around 11-12mins mark just doesn't sit well with me. Drop/Muta play that hits you before everything kicks in is a killing blow. Also if you choose to go a standard army then try transition into this it doesn't work too well at all. EDIT: TL;DR: - Waiting until 11-12mins in to start your unit production is far too long IMO - You are very vulnerable to timings due to a lack of a threatening army - You have no way to produce an army till every thing kicks in. As you are not using gateway cooldowns leading up to your gateway explosion, if a situation arises where you need units fast, you will be in the deep end very quickly. 3/4 Gateways are great, but the idea behind it is that you are using your cooldowns modestly and building up your army slowly, you cannot in a panic just throw an army together with banked resources with such few production facilities. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On May 15 2011 20:41 Markwerf wrote: I like this style of play and have been trying it alot before already but never got good results with it. The change to archons might make it better though. I actually like going stargate first though and then switch into zealot/archon. It feels a bit safer as i get scouting options, a way to stop his third and a sort of counter to mutalisk play. Zealot archon straight up can actually have quite some problems against quick muta play. I also just prefer going no sentries or just 1 with this build, I find they only delay archons and guardian shield isn't really that good against zerg especially with this composition. Your zealots are hard to cover and sentries are the only slow unit in a zealot/stalker/archon composition. With the 9 gates, you can easily warp-in a lot of stalkers if you see 4 gas + lair (which this response is also better for infestors as zealots are melee and are very vulnerable to infestors) with a probe scout. + with chrono, you should have enough stalkers. Also, since you have the twilight council, you can easily prepare for blink. | ||
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trNimitz
204 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On May 16 2011 00:23 iChau wrote: With the 9 gates, you can easily warp-in a lot of stalkers if you see 4 gas + lair (which this response is also better for infestors as zealots are melee and are very vulnerable to infestors) with a probe scout. + with chrono, you should have enough stalkers. Also, since you have the twilight council, you can easily prepare for blink. But your 9 Gates come up at the 10-11min mark because you are also upgrading and getting Templar tech at the same time. If you can get to that point then I think you are in a good position, but until you get there you are just relying on a probe scout and praying he doesn't do some kind of funky all-in | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
if in the 12 minute mark zerg don't have a third or is not saturating his third, i don't attack and just try to protect my 3 bases. it's very similar to the OP build, I just build less sentrys and a little less zealots, and build more stalkers and a robo... and i try to hit earlier to hit the zerg, just when his third base starts to pay off. Obs: I like zealots but i try to build earlier stalkers and hit earlier, so i don't have that biiiig mass of zealots. | ||
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Anomandaris
Afghanistan440 Posts
On May 16 2011 00:42 trNimitz wrote: Tried this out, just standard roach/mass infestor play rapes it. Immoblized melee units are the definition of useless. :/ yeah got the same problem | ||
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SwirlQ
United States148 Posts
On May 16 2011 03:12 rpgalon wrote: I wall off, and do a +2 timing push with like 5-6 archons 7-9 stalkers 1 sentry, looots of zealots and 1 observer, while taking my third expand behind the push, I hit in the 12 minute mark, and like to go for the zerg third base. if in the 12 minute mark zerg don't have a third or is not saturating his third, i don't attack and just try to protect my 3 bases. it's very similar to the OP build, I just build less sentrys and a little less zealots, and build more stalkers and a robo... and i try to hit earlier to hit the zerg, just when his third base starts to pay off. Obs: I like zealots but i try to build earlier stalkers and hit earlier, so i don't have that biiiig mass of zealots. isnt that to long to wait? id be getting my 4th by that time xDD ( im zerg ) | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
If there are infestors then you have to keep some high templars around for feedback. Worked pretty well for me so far! For the person questioning the 9 gateways, you start floating a ton of minerals if you only have 8. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On May 16 2011 06:21 iamke55 wrote: If there are infestors then you have to keep some high templars around for feedback. Worked pretty well for me so far! For the person questioning the 9 gateways, you start floating a ton of minerals if you only have 8. I'm kinda curious about feedback, does making some DTs and feedbacking the Overseers work well in your experience? It would seem like that would be helpful in controlling zerg's gas. | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
On May 16 2011 07:19 Antisocialmunky wrote: I'm kinda curious about feedback, does making some DTs and feedbacking the Overseers work well in your experience? It would seem like that would be helpful in controlling zerg's gas. If you can kill an overseer with feedback it's because of the zerg playing bad and not dumping his mana, it's not something you can rely on. | ||
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