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On May 12 2011 00:27 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 23:43 NguN wrote:
Is anybody watching Artosis' stream?
On Shakuras Plateau, his build was a 1 Gate Nexus, with a forge next, He skips the Zealot and sends his first Stalker out to pressure a little and see what's happening. He then puts 3 cannons down at his natural. After moving out with a few stalkers, he sees a proxy pylon (i.e. 4 gate), puts down a 4th cannon. He ends up holding with 3 cannons, 2 stalkers with ease.
Unfortunately, he couldn't stop units from being elevated into his base (I think this happened, I was busy posting this and then when I came back to the stream units were in his base) and killed him before his Nexus could pay dividends.
This seems like a neat build, and maybe a way for a viable expand in PvP! It does seem to be more mapped out though. Thoughts?
EDIT: This build probably wouldn't work on maps like Metalopolis due to how open it is. Maybe this is just map specific, with something smaller to defend? PvP FE is not viable, just stop trying. You can hold off the first wave of 6s1z with cannons, but all the 4 gater needs to do is to wait for an additional round of warp ins and then win. Forget the fancy stuff with warp prisms, blink, or colossus. I have never failed to break a PvP FE with a 4 gate, and I've seen plenty of people try (including players better than artosis...)
on shakuras it works thanks to the ramp if you perform the build right.
i'm gm on eu, and i've got a build that works fantastic against every 4gate if he won't get past the cannons and warp on top of your main.
you won't break cannons with gateway support. cannons are ridiculously strong in sc2.
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i've been having a great deal of success with 3 gate robo/3 gate blink stalkers/2gate stargate expand since the patch dropped. the one 4gate that i came up against i held easy with an extra sentry and an immortal about to pop.
to the above poster, cannons can be broken with an aggresive 4 gate unless it's a complete wall off or they hit late. stalkers can walk around cannons rather quickly
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On May 12 2011 03:29 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 00:27 Anihc wrote:On May 11 2011 23:43 NguN wrote:
Is anybody watching Artosis' stream?
On Shakuras Plateau, his build was a 1 Gate Nexus, with a forge next, He skips the Zealot and sends his first Stalker out to pressure a little and see what's happening. He then puts 3 cannons down at his natural. After moving out with a few stalkers, he sees a proxy pylon (i.e. 4 gate), puts down a 4th cannon. He ends up holding with 3 cannons, 2 stalkers with ease.
Unfortunately, he couldn't stop units from being elevated into his base (I think this happened, I was busy posting this and then when I came back to the stream units were in his base) and killed him before his Nexus could pay dividends.
This seems like a neat build, and maybe a way for a viable expand in PvP! It does seem to be more mapped out though. Thoughts?
EDIT: This build probably wouldn't work on maps like Metalopolis due to how open it is. Maybe this is just map specific, with something smaller to defend? PvP FE is not viable, just stop trying. You can hold off the first wave of 6s1z with cannons, but all the 4 gater needs to do is to wait for an additional round of warp ins and then win. Forget the fancy stuff with warp prisms, blink, or colossus. I have never failed to break a PvP FE with a 4 gate, and I've seen plenty of people try (including players better than artosis...) on shakuras it works thanks to the ramp if you perform the build right. i'm gm on eu, and i've got a build that works fantastic against every 4gate if he won't get past the cannons and warp on top of your main. you won't break cannons with gateway support. cannons are ridiculously strong in sc2.
Wanna try it vs me? I'll be home in ~4 hours.
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On May 12 2011 03:39 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 03:29 Elefanto wrote:On May 12 2011 00:27 Anihc wrote:On May 11 2011 23:43 NguN wrote:
Is anybody watching Artosis' stream?
On Shakuras Plateau, his build was a 1 Gate Nexus, with a forge next, He skips the Zealot and sends his first Stalker out to pressure a little and see what's happening. He then puts 3 cannons down at his natural. After moving out with a few stalkers, he sees a proxy pylon (i.e. 4 gate), puts down a 4th cannon. He ends up holding with 3 cannons, 2 stalkers with ease.
Unfortunately, he couldn't stop units from being elevated into his base (I think this happened, I was busy posting this and then when I came back to the stream units were in his base) and killed him before his Nexus could pay dividends.
This seems like a neat build, and maybe a way for a viable expand in PvP! It does seem to be more mapped out though. Thoughts?
EDIT: This build probably wouldn't work on maps like Metalopolis due to how open it is. Maybe this is just map specific, with something smaller to defend? PvP FE is not viable, just stop trying. You can hold off the first wave of 6s1z with cannons, but all the 4 gater needs to do is to wait for an additional round of warp ins and then win. Forget the fancy stuff with warp prisms, blink, or colossus. I have never failed to break a PvP FE with a 4 gate, and I've seen plenty of people try (including players better than artosis...) on shakuras it works thanks to the ramp if you perform the build right. i'm gm on eu, and i've got a build that works fantastic against every 4gate if he won't get past the cannons and warp on top of your main. you won't break cannons with gateway support. cannons are ridiculously strong in sc2. Wanna try it vs me? I'll be home in ~4 hours.
If you do play, some replays would be much appreciated. 
Oh, and i had a question. If i try this Archon+zealot mix, do you think i should upgrade shield first? I mean that will give archons much more survivability, but zealots will be weaker. But then again, if i upgrade armor, zealots will last longer, but archon wont get anything out of the upgrades... Oh, and Armor is cheaper.
Plah, maybe i will just go +3 attack first, don't have to think about it.
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On May 12 2011 03:39 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 03:29 Elefanto wrote:On May 12 2011 00:27 Anihc wrote:On May 11 2011 23:43 NguN wrote:
Is anybody watching Artosis' stream?
On Shakuras Plateau, his build was a 1 Gate Nexus, with a forge next, He skips the Zealot and sends his first Stalker out to pressure a little and see what's happening. He then puts 3 cannons down at his natural. After moving out with a few stalkers, he sees a proxy pylon (i.e. 4 gate), puts down a 4th cannon. He ends up holding with 3 cannons, 2 stalkers with ease.
Unfortunately, he couldn't stop units from being elevated into his base (I think this happened, I was busy posting this and then when I came back to the stream units were in his base) and killed him before his Nexus could pay dividends.
This seems like a neat build, and maybe a way for a viable expand in PvP! It does seem to be more mapped out though. Thoughts?
EDIT: This build probably wouldn't work on maps like Metalopolis due to how open it is. Maybe this is just map specific, with something smaller to defend? PvP FE is not viable, just stop trying. You can hold off the first wave of 6s1z with cannons, but all the 4 gater needs to do is to wait for an additional round of warp ins and then win. Forget the fancy stuff with warp prisms, blink, or colossus. I have never failed to break a PvP FE with a 4 gate, and I've seen plenty of people try (including players better than artosis...) on shakuras it works thanks to the ramp if you perform the build right. i'm gm on eu, and i've got a build that works fantastic against every 4gate if he won't get past the cannons and warp on top of your main. you won't break cannons with gateway support. cannons are ridiculously strong in sc2. Wanna try it vs me? I'll be home in ~4 hours.
Can't because i go to sleep 8[
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On May 12 2011 03:39 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 03:29 Elefanto wrote:On May 12 2011 00:27 Anihc wrote:On May 11 2011 23:43 NguN wrote:
Is anybody watching Artosis' stream?
On Shakuras Plateau, his build was a 1 Gate Nexus, with a forge next, He skips the Zealot and sends his first Stalker out to pressure a little and see what's happening. He then puts 3 cannons down at his natural. After moving out with a few stalkers, he sees a proxy pylon (i.e. 4 gate), puts down a 4th cannon. He ends up holding with 3 cannons, 2 stalkers with ease.
Unfortunately, he couldn't stop units from being elevated into his base (I think this happened, I was busy posting this and then when I came back to the stream units were in his base) and killed him before his Nexus could pay dividends.
This seems like a neat build, and maybe a way for a viable expand in PvP! It does seem to be more mapped out though. Thoughts?
EDIT: This build probably wouldn't work on maps like Metalopolis due to how open it is. Maybe this is just map specific, with something smaller to defend? PvP FE is not viable, just stop trying. You can hold off the first wave of 6s1z with cannons, but all the 4 gater needs to do is to wait for an additional round of warp ins and then win. Forget the fancy stuff with warp prisms, blink, or colossus. I have never failed to break a PvP FE with a 4 gate, and I've seen plenty of people try (including players better than artosis...) on shakuras it works thanks to the ramp if you perform the build right. i'm gm on eu, and i've got a build that works fantastic against every 4gate if he won't get past the cannons and warp on top of your main. you won't break cannons with gateway support. cannons are ridiculously strong in sc2. Wanna try it vs me? I'll be home in ~4 hours.
Oh great...
Look, thing is forge FE only works if the other dude lets it work. It will never work as standard play simply because you can: A) avoid the cannons as the opposing player; B) outrange the cannons with colossus if need be (FE player turtles).
The reason Brown had his forge FE work is because it went unnoticed all the way up till the 4 gate came up the ramp, he FF'd a couple units into the cannons, and then killed a LOT of probes with phoenix.
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United States15275 Posts
Naniwa just won the first game against Sase in the Rakaka finals with a Archon strat. Can anyone summarize that for me?
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I didn't chronoboost at 12/18 so i have one more for my wargate research (4/5 chrono) like that i have same timing before patch easy against 2 gates/robo or 3 gates
I have won all my PvP
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ive been experimenting with some builds latley.
all the builds start with the 3 stalker rush. from there i take out forward pylon, probe, zel, stalker if the person goes for a 4 gate. when im out looking for the pylon i build a sentry before my warp gate finished and after that i have 3 gates and a robo. backs home and warps in 3 zealots for defense if i see that his "delayed" 4 gate is sill coming. after that i ff my ramp and gets an observer for scouting. if i scout robo tech i make colossos immeditly skipping immortal. builds 3 colossos and go and win.
my second build starts the same but im getting a startport. getting around 6-7 phenix and runs to harass. makes a twilight for charge and makes only zealots! push with my army lift half of his army up and let the zealots do the dps.
third build is 3 stalker rush and then blink. going to harass and expo if i see him ff his ramp. otherwise keep getting blink and walk up the ramp and shoot some and blink back.
wich one of these would you guys prefer? cant descide with one im going with. would be nice with some response
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I have been playing it similar to pre patch fast stalkers to deny pylon build. Now, you have more units and can easily drop a robo for fast obs -> colossus. I usually try to make it a 2-3 base macro though. Observer will tell you if they put down a Stargate. If you are ahead on colossus, which you probably will be with robo so fast, and you scout phoenix, make your own. A 2 base can support colossus/phoenix with intermittent gateway.
Seems like I just said build EVERYTHING, but as the game progresses it is viable to produce the colossus and make enough phoenix to counter theirs. You might have less but your ground army should be stronger. I only comment because have played 4 PvPs in a row with similar game progression.
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Been playing alot with DTs after patch. Basicly, you can't die to rushes with 2 gate DT anymore and get DTs ~20 sec later than opponent gets blink so you can defend that aswell. Against robo builds you won't be behind unless you fuck up with DTs and lose more than 1 or 2. Simply getting archon zealot will usually destroy everything robo builds has before +2 colossus as they usually have mostly zealots and few sentries, both destroyed by archons. If he has immortals, you'll usually be able to just go and kill him even if you lose initial DT.
However, don't have exact build or timings yet, so it could be that theres a rush that will kill this build. Blink stalkers with cannon at ramp for example was quite strong, though u can expand freely with DTs in that case. Another would be Stargate with cannons, never faced this but as you don't really have any anti-air (All gas goes to DTs) it might kill you.
In any case, it's quite fun build, at last better than 4gate.
Build order something like this, 2 gates, chrono 2 stalkers, then zealots and council when 100 gas. Use stalkers to get map control (See if he attacks). If he pushes, get 1 sentry, if not, just zealots, get 3rd gate. Dark shrine as soon as possible. Move out as soon as you get first 3 DTs, send 1 to his base. At this point either kill him with DTs, get archon and push if you think you can kill him, or expand if he has cannons.
If you decide to go 1 base all-in, get 5 gates, you can support zealots and DTs out of 5.
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Gas steal fah' days. It's now my standard PvP opener.
I'm really digging a 3 gate Immortal FE, stupid fun. See collosus? Stargate.
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I play random so I might not be most knowledgable on this subject but 5/4 gate chargelots I have been getting the upper hand on everything. I pull from gas and get charge super fast so I guess being random helps catch them offguard. Blink stalkers generally has way too few stalkers when I hit to hold it off. Not too many players have been ff ramp blocking but when that happens I contain and expand while switching to blink charge combo.
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Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 02:58 Keilah wrote:
On the defensive end, I've managed to get 3 stalkers, 2 sentries, double gas, 23 probes, and 3 gates beginning the morph into warpgates at 5:37, with enough funds for 2 stalkers and a sentry, leaving you with 5 stalkers, 3 sentries, and 39/50 food in time to defend your ramp (options: cut a probe to build 3 stalkers with your first round of warpins, or build an extra probe, but be at 40/42 food and needing to warp in the next pylon ASAP).
The first sentry comes out early, incase someone does a 10gate warp build and you want to FF your ramp to stall for your warpins, and you will have 2 stalkers and a sentry out at ~4:55 to kill the proxy probe and get to work on the pylon(s). Once you start warping, you have then econ to build pure stalker, with occasional tiny cuts for pylons if you lose zero units. I cant find a way to use chronoboost energy after warpins start... perhaps you can use it to make up for bad macro, or you can choose to go zealot/zealot/sentry instead of 3x stalker, building up some spare cash and making room to actually USE your chronoboost.
AFAIK this build wouldn't have worked pre-patch because your opponents gates would begin morphing at 5:25, and sentries took 5s longer each to build.
Build:
-chrono probes 2x ASAP,
-13 gate, scout,
-14 gas,
-chrono probes a third time,
-16 pylon,
-17 cyber,
-18 gate,
-18 gas #2,
-build 1 more probe,
-19 warpgate (chrono x4 of course),
-19 stalker,
-return your scouting probe (if you have a problem with this, perhaps you can edit the build, but your opponent will have a stalker out in a few seconds anyways),
-build another probe,
-22 pylon,
-22 stalker @ 2nd gate,
-24 sentry @ 1st gate,
-26 gate #3 (make sure this goes down by 4:27),
-build 3 more probes,
-@ 100% stalker, build stalker,
-@ 100% sentry, build sentry,
-@ 100 minerals, build pylon
OPTIONS from here:
-stop probes, build another pylon, warp in 3 stalkers
-build 1 probe, build another pylon, warp in 2 stalkers and a sentry
-build 2 probes, warp in 2 stalkers and a sentry, build the next pylon ASAP while microing
What's the advantage of a build like this? If your opponent sees your sentries and stalkers and doesn't attack with his 4 gate you're even on tech and he can even throw up an expansion pretty safely. If he teched to robo or twilight instead of 4 gating, you're behind from blindly making so many sentries with your gas. You might as well just 4 gate defensively; that way if he is doing something greedy you can at least turn it into an offensive 4 gate, unlike this build. Meanwhile it would be just as effective at holding off a 4 gate.
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On May 12 2011 03:17 Newguy wrote:FnaticMSiTT1 vs goswserNrGMUTE vs goswserI don't play protoss, but I was offracing for fun yesterday, and messed around with this quick dt build into archon + chargelot + blink stalker. I open with a fast pressure, delaying my 4 warp gate some but giving me the potential to do a great deal of damage, then switch to my midgame composition. So far I've only done it twice and I sort of made it up on the spot, but I beat FnaticMSiTT1 and NrGMUTE with it, and posted replays if anyone wants to see it.
Alright now this seems useful... Basically the strat is to 4-gate with 2 chronoed zealots+ 1 stalker as opposed to the normal zealot stalker opening, this prevents proxy pylon and you can pick off stalkers/zealots probes early to and will withhold the first round of units. Then you transition to DTs and expand when dark shrine finishes, kill as many probes as possible, and morph in archons. Then you research blink+charge and attack. Seems like if your timing always hits before 3-4+ colossi, you're pretty much good to go. And if he opened double gas you can just follow up with standard 4gate.
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After playing around a bit of pvp, 4gate is still viable, it's just a lot more obvious. Probe cut at 20 or 22, a LOT of saved chrono and 1 gas even when I leave the base. On the bright side you can make more than 20 probes fairly safely, although you still have to cut if you suspect 4gate. The pylon change made a HUGE difference though. Now that sentries and stalkers can both shoot a pylon, those things go down quite quickly and a defensive 3gate robo can hold fairly well, especially with the sentry build time buff.
Finally, Archons are pretty good. Chargelot Archon DESTROYS any colossus based build that doesn't have 4-5+ colossi. Enemy zealots melt, and then the squishy stalkers die to chargelots =/.
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On most maps it seems that blink stalkers are the way to go, especially since you can harass your opponent, while expanding. Later getting archons and chargelots seems to be quite good, unless your opponent goes for a 2 robo colossus, which I am not sure how it will play out. What I am sure, though, is that colossus tech is cheaper than blink/archons and it will come down to how effective your blink stalkers are at harassing, otherwise on a 2 base vs 2 base, I believe colossus tech is better.
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On May 12 2011 17:42 Barca wrote:
Gas steal fah' days. It's now my standard PvP opener.
I'm really digging a 3 gate Immortal FE, stupid fun. See collosus? Stargate.
What if he pushes with his first Colossus...?
Agree with the gas steal, I take my gas right around 18-20 supply, if he hasn't taken his then I gas steal
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Seems to me that a chargelot/archon build can possibly become amazing if done right. All the gas you get can be spent on the Charge upgrade, DT shrine and forge upgrades. You gain map control early on which is always great to have. There is only a tiny window early game where it should get scary if the enemy is still doing a 4g type of build just before your charge finishes.
Definitely going to experiment with the timings of this build. Perhaps opening in the Adelscott way with 2 gates into cyber into late gas, and then transitioning into Charge tech once your expo is up. Altho I wouldnt recommend this on maps with big open naturals.
Anyhow, PvP is looking to become way more awesome now.
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PvP has almost officially become 1 gate forge expo into chargelot archon, ive tryed this against a few strategy and had great success. Archon and chargelots> Col;osus stalkers
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EPT
