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On May 11 2011 15:36 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 15:20 Anihc wrote:
People are overreacting... +20 seconds warp gate research time is not a complete game changer. The matchup is still pretty much the same. It does make 4 gate slightly easier to defend with a non-4 gate build, more so the 10 gate builds like K4G. But if you think builds like 1 gate robo are now viable then I'll just continue to easily roll over you with a 4 gate... That's what I've been doing. Some people have the khutspa to triple chrono their nexus and take an early 2nd gas while my probe is still in their base. It's only 20 seconds, not an hour.
I learned that the hard way today, Triple chrono and took my 2nd gas only to die to 4 gate :D
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I've been having a lot of success with a 12 nexus build as strange as that sounds
User was warned for this post
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On May 12 2011 20:43 Aletheia27 wrote:
I've been having a lot of success with a 12 nexus build as strange as that sounds
replays pls :D
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i have too tried a charge archon build. but got crushed against a blink stalker build, maybe because he dident let me come outside my base and kept harrasing so i couldent get a good angle to attack. still i think it has potentional.
can you go one base charge archon in pvp? like 3 gate, twilight, ht teck and then go archon. or sould i go something like dt tech instead and harass and expand? or is the one base ht better and go for a all in push?
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Iunno but I've been seeing a lot of players use archons to break forcefields.
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hi,800 rating diamond here,so all the references here are from the high diamond ladder.
I read all the posts with all kind of fancy new things,and im simply kinda confused.
I laddered all yesterday after the patch came out,and faced like 5-6 pvp's in a row,and frankly everyone was using strange things:before the patch majority of the players always went for a 4gate,but now every1 is trying robo openings/dt's/fast colossi.
And frankly,it was pretty easy to roflstomp them with a standard 4gate.I don't see how the patch changed so drastically the pvp matchup.In ladder usually 90% of the games are on one base,and hitting 10-15 seconds later with the standard 6s1z doesnt change so dramatically the tactic.Besides busting the ramp is pretty much the same,the pylon change affected in such a minor way,that still the skill required from the defender to bust the proxy pylons is pretty much the same.
Maybe it's me(probably it's me)but i can't see how this patch changed anything in the pvp matchup.
Maybe the archon's change,but still 90% of ladder pvp's don't go that far in the tech tree.
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Canada13389 Posts
On May 12 2011 21:13 Bigfett wrote:
i have too tried a charge archon build. but got crushed against a blink stalker build, maybe because he dident let me come outside my base and kept harrasing so i couldent get a good angle to attack. still i think it has potentional.
can you go one base charge archon in pvp? like 3 gate, twilight, ht teck and then go archon. or sould i go something like dt tech instead and harass and expand? or is the one base ht better and go for a all in push?
Don't do storm but running HT is better for the economy than DTs since zealots are mineral only and HTs are very mineral light. Chargelots need a lot of surface area though so you need to flank with them and catch the opponent in the middle of the map not at the ramp.
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On May 12 2011 21:13 Bigfett wrote:
i have too tried a charge archon build. but got crushed against a blink stalker build, maybe because he dident let me come outside my base and kept harrasing so i couldent get a good angle to attack. still i think it has potentional.
can you go one base charge archon in pvp? like 3 gate, twilight, ht teck and then go archon. or sould i go something like dt tech instead and harass and expand? or is the one base ht better and go for a all in push?
Don't rush straight to chargelots/archon. Either do a DT opening or blink opening, and then transition into chargelots.
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On May 12 2011 21:32 Abigail wrote:
hi,800 rating diamond here,so all the references here are from the high diamond ladder.
I read all the posts with all kind of fancy new things,and im simply kinda confused.
I laddered all yesterday after the patch came out,and faced like 5-6 pvp's in a row,and frankly everyone was using strange things:before the patch majority of the players always went for a 4gate,but now every1 is trying robo openings/dt's/fast colossi.
And frankly,it was pretty easy to roflstomp them with a standard 4gate.I don't see how the patch changed so drastically the pvp matchup.In ladder usually 90% of the games are on one base,and hitting 10-15 seconds later with the standard 6s1z doesnt change so dramatically the tactic.Besides busting the ramp is pretty much the same,the pylon change affected in such a minor way,that still the skill required from the defender to bust the proxy pylons is pretty much the same.
Maybe it's me(probably it's me)but i can't see how this patch changed anything in the pvp matchup.
Maybe the archon's change,but still 90% of ladder pvp's don't go that far in the tech tree.
Diamond players probably went for unsafe tech builds, and those still loses to 4gate. On my skill level (~800 master) i don't dare to play 4gate anymore because i think it is too risky, however it can still depend on what build opponent used to defend, for example blink after 4gate can still beat most builds if u didnt let stalkers died. I'm messing around with blink stalkers because i think it is the safest build and i'm looking for a "go to build" for every PvP. With proper map awareness and scouting imho 4gate is easy to stop, especially if u open with anti 4gate build like a 3 stalker rush, but it is not really necessary.
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On May 11 2011 07:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Just go 3 Gate Blink, it really counters everything at this point. You can hold a 4 gate and keep pressuring vs all builds. If you see no immortals, it generally means they're going DT and drop a robo asap (very crisp timing).
Expand away as far as you possibly can, if they move out, go for a base race. If you want to see/play vs it send me a PM on TL and I can give you some replays or play with you.
I've been trying 3 gate blink but it gets absolutely destroyed by the 3 stalker rush into 3 gate robo so I stopped because the build order losses or annoying
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3 stalker rush i so easy to scout, u should be more than prepared, or do this opening yourself and transition into blink.
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On May 12 2011 22:58 Perplex wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 07:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Just go 3 Gate Blink, it really counters everything at this point. You can hold a 4 gate and keep pressuring vs all builds. If you see no immortals, it generally means they're going DT and drop a robo asap (very crisp timing).
Expand away as far as you possibly can, if they move out, go for a base race. If you want to see/play vs it send me a PM on TL and I can give you some replays or play with you. I've been trying 3 gate blink but it gets absolutely destroyed by the 3 stalker rush into 3 gate robo so I stopped because the build order losses or annoying
You're not doing it right...
Go blink, and poke and attack his ramp. Don't commit unless you are sure you can win. You should not lose any stalkers. Expand to a far away base when you attack. If you want to do the chargelot transition, expand to a far away base, get charge/forge upgrades, DT/HT tech, and 3 additional gateways. During this "powering" phase, sit outside his base and threaten to backstab/base race with him if he tries to move out.
If he attacks before colossus, you can delay him infinitely with sentries while killing his base.
If he waits until he has colossus, you can base race with him anyway, or overpower him with your 2 base +1 chargelot/blink stalker/archon army.
If he moves out with 2 colossus and you're not ready to fight him yet, that means you didn't put enough pressure on him with your blink stalkers. If he was able to get colossus on 0-1 immortals, you probably could have killed him with your blink stalkers.
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Italy12246 Posts
@Anihc:
I guess you also get a robo to have high ground vision and blink in his base for harass. If so, when do you get it, and when do you expand? The few times i've tried that style (mid diamond) either he rolled me with robo units (even just pushing out with 2-3 immortals), or i was able to afford my expo really really late, about 10-11 minutes into the game, so my economy was actually pretty bad. It feels as if i don't have enough to tech to robo/charge/whatever, get upgrades, expand and still maintain a decent army.
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On May 12 2011 23:51 Teoita wrote:
@Anihc:
I guess you also get a robo to have high ground vision and blink in his base for harass. If so, when do you get it, and when do you expand? The few times i've tried that style (mid diamond) either he rolled me with robo units (even just pushing out with 2-3 immortals), or i was able to afford my expo really really late, about 10-11 minutes into the game, so my economy was actually pretty bad. It feels as if i don't have enough to tech to robo/charge/whatever, get upgrades, expand and still maintain a decent army.
Robo is optional, a lot of people get it which is great, but I personally don't even bother. It just comes down to your personal preference. The purpose of blink stalkers for me is not to harass, but to keep him in his base until I can get a 2 base eco up, and I don't need obs to do that.
While you're expanding and teching, his army should be bigger than yours. You don't need to maintain a big army because just the presence of a group of blink stalkers should be threatening enough. You really don't want to fight his army at that time - like I said earlier, just backstab him/base race if he moves out too early, and if he moves out with only immortals and no colossus you can FF your ramp forever.
If you feel like it just takes forever to tech and expand, what build are you doing to get to 3 gate blink stalker? A lot of people cut probes when doing a 3 gate blink stalker which is fine, but then you just have to do more damage with it. When I do this build I have the 2 base goal in mind, and I don't really cut probes at all. The best case scenario for me with this mindset is to be able to kill several zealots and force him to make several immortals before he feels safe to get colossus (delaying his inevitable push), all while not losing any stalkers.
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Would be nice if you could post some replays of your PvP Patch 1.3.3
Would help me figure out how you do it.
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Been doing some of my own testing with the 3 stalker rush, you still need to push out and slow down the push, but with some different chrono timings, everything lines up just swell.
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:11 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 23:51 Teoita wrote:
@Anihc:
I guess you also get a robo to have high ground vision and blink in his base for harass. If so, when do you get it, and when do you expand? The few times i've tried that style (mid diamond) either he rolled me with robo units (even just pushing out with 2-3 immortals), or i was able to afford my expo really really late, about 10-11 minutes into the game, so my economy was actually pretty bad. It feels as if i don't have enough to tech to robo/charge/whatever, get upgrades, expand and still maintain a decent army. Robo is optional, a lot of people get it which is great, but I personally don't even bother. It just comes down to your personal preference. The purpose of blink stalkers for me is not to harass, but to keep him in his base until I can get a 2 base eco up, and I don't need obs to do that. While you're expanding and teching, his army should be bigger than yours. You don't need to maintain a big army because just the presence of a group of blink stalkers should be threatening enough. You really don't want to fight his army at that time - like I said earlier, just backstab him/base race if he moves out too early, and if he moves out with only immortals and no colossus you can FF your ramp forever. If you feel like it just takes forever to tech and expand, what build are you doing to get to 3 gate blink stalker? A lot of people cut probes when doing a 3 gate blink stalker which is fine, but then you just have to do more damage with it. When I do this build I have the 2 base goal in mind, and I don't really cut probes at all. The best case scenario for me with this mindset is to be able to kill several zealots and force him to make several immortals before he feels safe to get colossus (delaying his inevitable push), all while not losing any stalkers.
Thanks for the answer 
Regarding my build, depending on chrono he's saved up either 3gate twilight (if it looks like he might 4gate) or 1gate twilight (if he plays greedy and i don't feel like 4gating myself). Often times i will go for econ 4gate vs a 4gate; i cut probes fairly early (26 for 3gates, 23 if im defending a 4gate) which i guess is were i'm screwing up...
With no obs how easy is it to blink in his base if he moves out? I have never tried not getting the robo at all actually, and i guess it's really map dependant...
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On May 12 2011 22:37 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 21:13 Bigfett wrote:
i have too tried a charge archon build. but got crushed against a blink stalker build, maybe because he dident let me come outside my base and kept harrasing so i couldent get a good angle to attack. still i think it has potentional.
can you go one base charge archon in pvp? like 3 gate, twilight, ht teck and then go archon. or sould i go something like dt tech instead and harass and expand? or is the one base ht better and go for a all in push? Don't rush straight to chargelots/archon. Either do a DT opening or blink opening, and then transition into chargelots.
Thanks for this. I tried fooling around with a random Zealot/Archon build I found on here which had me rushing to Zealot speed and Archons. I was getting crushed by Blink Stalkers and/or larger armies.
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Anihc, I would also love to see some reps of you doing PvP blink stalker, if you feel like sharing.
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On May 13 2011 00:49 Mega One wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 22:37 Anihc wrote:On May 12 2011 21:13 Bigfett wrote:
i have too tried a charge archon build. but got crushed against a blink stalker build, maybe because he dident let me come outside my base and kept harrasing so i couldent get a good angle to attack. still i think it has potentional.
can you go one base charge archon in pvp? like 3 gate, twilight, ht teck and then go archon. or sould i go something like dt tech instead and harass and expand? or is the one base ht better and go for a all in push? Don't rush straight to chargelots/archon. Either do a DT opening or blink opening, and then transition into chargelots. Thanks for this. I tried fooling around with a random Zealot/Archon build I found on here which had me rushing to Zealot speed and Archons. I was getting crushed by Blink Stalkers and/or larger armies.
If he is going Blink Stalkers then you have to be careful, you might just want to hit a mid game timing.
Blink Stalkers are units that scale almost exponentially in efficiency as their numbers grow, Chargelot/Archon eventually loses to it past the mid game, you just don't have the AOE nor the burst to kill anything. Templars are a poor transition due to blink micro pulling your units into storms.
In the early/mid game you should have some sort of edge, when the Stalker ball still lacks a few stalkers to actually kill your army and take minimal losses in return, you should just throw down a few extra warpgates, invest in a warpprism and go all-in if you think he is committing to mass Blink. The important part is the Warp-prism, you need the ability to attack two points at once, the more you can split up the ball the better
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EPT
