|
On May 11 2011 16:44 Drowsy wrote:
I love how this patch was supposed to be the "fix PvP" patch, but people cried about 2 gate zealot rushes and now it's not. Pvp is basically going to be a 4-gate war in masters while everyone else goes crazy and tries to do dumb tech builds which aren't going to work against competent 4-gaters. The difference between last patch and this 1 in a 4-gate situation is basically one chrono boost. The sentry build time just doesn't help very much.
The difference is two chrono boosts. Each chrono shaves off 10 seconds. Also, the change in pylon radius obviously makes it easier for the defender to hit the proxy pylon with stalkers.
|
Also decrease in sentry build time allows you to get a lot out to spam FF and prevent proxy pylons from going up. 4gate will still dominate wide ramp maps like scrap, taldarim though.
|
I think lowering Pylon radius is the biggest thing making 4gate weaker. It is (propably) much harder to warp units over ramp since it should be easier to kill pylon with stalkers/sentrys now. I can't play/test this for a while, but I think my statement is pretty good^^
|
On May 11 2011 11:25 pikagrue wrote:
I've been working on my own 4gate build. At this point, I believe I've hammered it out to the point where I have 4 Stalkers warping in at 5:17-20, with 1 zealot I build before, with 20 probes econ, and enough minerals to make a second pylon while warping in.
While you're hammering, try my post-1.3.3 practice build. You can make more units with 3 gates.
It's tight like latex (which is why its my practice build), but it fits if you squeeze hard. Of course, it's almost as all-in as a 4-gate, but I assume that's what you want.
+ Show Spoiler +
9 pylon
chrono on nex
13 gateway, scout
14 pylon
15 assimilator
16 cybernetics core
17 zealot
20 gateway
21 warpgate (chrono 4x)
21 stalker
24 pylon
24 gateway
24 zealot
26 stalker
28 pylon
28 stalker
30 stalker (chrono 1x)
32 zealot (chrono 1x)
34 transform all 3 gates to warpgates
34 stalker
36 stalker
38 zealot
40 pylon
5:55-6:00 You should be broke now; attack with 6 stalker 4 zealot.
Spend all income on stalker/zealot/zealot rounds. If your units don't die and you have to make pylons, you'll have to cut zealots. After all, a 20-probe economy can't really support 3 warpgates if you build pylons.
|
On May 11 2011 15:33 brainpower wrote:
I disagree. 20 seconds is an extremely long time at that point in the game. Its almost long to squeeze in an extra round of zealots off of 3 gateways, and is definitely long enough to let a 2nd voidray or immortal finish. It also means that the enemy has to use an extra CB on his WG tech if he wants to finish it ASAP. It might be interesting to see how 4 warp gaters use the extra build time they have from their warp gates. Maybe they can find a way to get the gateways up slightly sooner and have a full round of units ready to escort the probe out to make the proxy pylon. The 4 gate certainly isn't dead, but it will have to evolve and it certainly isn't as strong as it used to be.
lol, obviously a "proper" 4 gate is not going to be the exact same BO as before, with 6 stalker 1 zealot hitting just 20 seconds later. If you don't make any changes at all to your standard 4 gate BO, then yes the 4 gate is going to be significantly weaker.
But people are going to adjust the 4 gate BO and optimize it, whether its spending extra chronos on the warpgate tech, or to just hit a slightly later timing but with more units - ex. 7s2z at 5:45 instead of 6s1z at 5:30 (that's just an example that I made up). Also, while it may be easier to kill the pylon at the ramp to warp in units on top, it doesn't completely negate this strategy.
The strength in 4 gate lies in the sheer number of units you get from cutting probes, not the specific timing. Prior to patch, I was doing 4 gates that hit well past the 6 minute mark, just with more units, and they worked just as well as your standard 4 gate that hit at 5:30. People mistakenly think that if you can get an immortal out to defend a 4 gate you're perfectly safe, which is completely false.
|
The difference, if you use 1 more chrono, is a later stalker and 10 seconds where you have idle gates. I'd guess that the best defenses will revolve around either denying proxy pylons or getting the early gas and manual building an extra sentry or two in time to repeat the FF block, both from 3 gates, then killing the stalker/zlot mix with pure ranged units.
I think the defender will be able to skip the zealot now because his stalker buddy will be 10s later. Use that however you can I suppose.
Edit: if the extra chrono energy comes from the aggressor only chronoing probes once, then i don't really know, but I'm thinking you could win by defensive 4gating with no chrono on your stalker, but getting in the extra probe boost for the superior economy.
|
Is anybody watching Artosis' stream?
On Shakuras Plateau, his build was a 1 Gate Nexus, with a forge next, He skips the Zealot and sends his first Stalker out to pressure a little and see what's happening. He then puts 3 cannons down at his natural. After moving out with a few stalkers, he sees a proxy pylon (i.e. 4 gate), puts down a 4th cannon. He ends up holding with 3 cannons, 2 stalkers with ease.
Unfortunately, he couldn't stop units from being elevated into his base (I think this happened, I was busy posting this and then when I came back to the stream units were in his base) and killed him before his Nexus could pay dividends.
This seems like a neat build, and maybe a way for a viable expand in PvP! It does seem to be more mapped out though. Thoughts?
EDIT: This build probably wouldn't work on maps like Metalopolis due to how open it is. Maybe this is just map specific, with something smaller to defend?
|
How about a blink stalker build with hallu or obs for vision, pretty sure that would both have early stalkers to force cannons, and blink up a cliff before the expo paid for the extra nexus, probes, and useless cannons
|
On May 11 2011 07:56 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 07:43 RobCorso wrote:
If someone holds a 4 gate, remember that twilight vs robo vs stargate thing? well nows its earlier tech and also destroys robo in a pretty huge timing window (before 3 colossi). Blink (+hidden expo) also destroys robo players by getting hidden bases and forcing a base trade (which blink user will usually win).
That's not true, maybe next time?
|
Another good build, depending on your own multi-tasking and micro is this:
3 Gate with three stalkers, one sentry and zealots
Robo, get out Immortal versus aggresion
Make a Robotics bay, get Warp Prism Speed and put two Immortals in it. After that you should have enough gas for Col. range and making Colossus. I use it lately in Master vs Protoss, works well against fast Colossus or Stalkers (only before they have Blink)
|
I think 95% of the 4 gate players will have to wait until a decent player shows them the proper build with the new timings. Until then, they are hopelessly in the dark.
As said, it doesn't really matter how long the research is. The advantage of the build is in
a) having your units at the moment you spend the minerals instead of half a minute later
b) having your units produced near the opponent to eliminate travel time
c) cutting probes to have a bigger army.
You can still combine those 3 things to your advantage just like you could before. Just need to change your exact timings, too bad if you need someone to show you how to do that.
|
a standard 2 Gate opening i think is better on close position than any warpgate timing.
|
The really key thing for an agressive 4 Gate (especially on maps with small ramps) is that you are able to warp in the zealots on the high ground. The zealots just need that close space and warp in to eventually kill Sentries early on.
|
On May 11 2011 07:20 BoB_KiLLeR wrote:
Adelscott no gas build. U will have 4 Zealots 2 Stalkers when your enemies has 5 gate units.
how do you have 2 stalkers with no gas?!
|
On May 11 2011 23:43 NguN wrote:
Is anybody watching Artosis' stream?
On Shakuras Plateau, his build was a 1 Gate Nexus, with a forge next, He skips the Zealot and sends his first Stalker out to pressure a little and see what's happening. He then puts 3 cannons down at his natural. After moving out with a few stalkers, he sees a proxy pylon (i.e. 4 gate), puts down a 4th cannon. He ends up holding with 3 cannons, 2 stalkers with ease.
Unfortunately, he couldn't stop units from being elevated into his base (I think this happened, I was busy posting this and then when I came back to the stream units were in his base) and killed him before his Nexus could pay dividends.
This seems like a neat build, and maybe a way for a viable expand in PvP! It does seem to be more mapped out though. Thoughts?
EDIT: This build probably wouldn't work on maps like Metalopolis due to how open it is. Maybe this is just map specific, with something smaller to defend?
PvP FE is not viable, just stop trying. You can hold off the first wave of 6s1z with cannons, but all the 4 gater needs to do is to wait for an additional round of warp ins and then win. Forget the fancy stuff with warp prisms, blink, or colossus. I have never failed to break a PvP FE with a 4 gate, and I've seen plenty of people try (including players better than artosis...)
|
On May 12 2011 00:24 AnodyneSea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 07:20 BoB_KiLLeR wrote:
Adelscott no gas build. U will have 4 Zealots 2 Stalkers when your enemies has 5 gate units. how do you have 2 stalkers with no gas?!
Of course he means, get probes off gas when you have that 100 for Stalkers, or 150 with warp gate (which is more logical)
|
On May 12 2011 00:29 Argus92 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 00:24 AnodyneSea wrote:On May 11 2011 07:20 BoB_KiLLeR wrote:
Adelscott no gas build. U will have 4 Zealots 2 Stalkers when your enemies has 5 gate units. how do you have 2 stalkers with no gas?! Of course he means, get probes off gas when you have that 100 for Stalkers, or 150 with warp gate (which is more logical)
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Adel's_No_Gas_PvP
It's called no gas because you get your gas very very late, like the spanishiwa no gas build.
|
On May 12 2011 00:24 AnodyneSea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 07:20 BoB_KiLLeR wrote:
Adelscott no gas build. U will have 4 Zealots 2 Stalkers when your enemies has 5 gate units. how do you have 2 stalkers with no gas?!
Adelscott isn't a gas-less build, it's more like a late gas build (I think you get just 1 gas on 18 and don't take your second gas until much later). You build 4 zealots, send them to his base, and then rally 2 stalkers behind it.
|
On the defensive end, I've managed to get 3 stalkers, 2 sentries, double gas, 23 probes, and 3 gates beginning the morph into warpgates at 5:37, with enough funds for 2 stalkers and a sentry, leaving you with 5 stalkers, 3 sentries, and 39/50 food in time to defend your ramp (options: cut a probe to build 3 stalkers with your first round of warpins, or build an extra probe, but be at 40/42 food and needing to warp in the next pylon ASAP).
The first sentry comes out early, incase someone does a 10gate warp build and you want to FF your ramp to stall for your warpins, and you will have 2 stalkers and a sentry out at ~4:55 to kill the proxy probe and get to work on the pylon(s). Once you start warping, you have then econ to build pure stalker, with occasional tiny cuts for pylons if you lose zero units. I cant find a way to use chronoboost energy after warpins start... perhaps you can use it to make up for bad macro, or you can choose to go zealot/zealot/sentry instead of 3x stalker, building up some spare cash and making room to actually USE your chronoboost.
AFAIK this build wouldn't have worked pre-patch because your opponents gates would begin morphing at 5:25, and sentries took 5s longer each to build.
Build:
-chrono probes 2x ASAP,
-13 gate, scout,
-14 gas,
-chrono probes a third time,
-16 pylon,
-17 cyber,
-18 gate,
-18 gas #2,
-build 1 more probe,
-19 warpgate (chrono x4 of course),
-19 stalker,
-return your scouting probe (if you have a problem with this, perhaps you can edit the build, but your opponent will have a stalker out in a few seconds anyways),
-build another probe,
-22 pylon,
-22 stalker @ 2nd gate,
-24 sentry @ 1st gate,
-26 gate #3 (make sure this goes down by 4:27),
-build 3 more probes,
-@ 100% stalker, build stalker,
-@ 100% sentry, build sentry,
-@ 100 minerals, build pylon
OPTIONS from here:
-stop probes, build another pylon, warp in 3 stalkers
-build 1 probe, build another pylon, warp in 2 stalkers and a sentry
-build 2 probes, warp in 2 stalkers and a sentry, build the next pylon ASAP while microing
|
FnaticMSiTT1 vs goswser
NrGMUTE vs goswser
I don't play protoss, but I was offracing for fun yesterday, and messed around with this quick dt build into archon + chargelot + blink stalker. I open with a fast pressure, delaying my 4 warp gate some but giving me the potential to do a great deal of damage, then switch to my midgame composition. So far I've only done it twice and I sort of made it up on the spot, but I beat FnaticMSiTT1 and NrGMUTE with it, and posted replays if anyone wants to see it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
