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On May 11 2011 12:48 Amui wrote:
After playing a few PvP post 1.3.3, it seems people just don't 4gate any more.
However, I have found
- phoenix > most defensive builds. Once you have 5+ phoenix patrolling the map, most tech builds simply do not have the stalkers required to defend multiple mineral lines. Provided he did not rush for blink, you can hold off a responsive attack. It forces 2 cannons at every mineral line if the opponent wants to play macro. Essentially if his stuff was still in his base when phoenix arrive, he cannot attack without it being an all-in. You also don't have to play colossus wars(big plus here).
- You can use more chrono's on nexus without dying! :D
- warpgate takes a ludicrous amount of time compared to last patch. It really does.
Stargate first builds get easily steamrolled by 1base aggression, whether it be a 4gate or 3gate robo. You simply won't have the resources or units to defend properly.
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On May 11 2011 12:51 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 12:48 Amui wrote:
After playing a few PvP post 1.3.3, it seems people just don't 4gate any more.
However, I have found
- phoenix > most defensive builds. Once you have 5+ phoenix patrolling the map, most tech builds simply do not have the stalkers required to defend multiple mineral lines. Provided he did not rush for blink, you can hold off a responsive attack. It forces 2 cannons at every mineral line if the opponent wants to play macro. Essentially if his stuff was still in his base when phoenix arrive, he cannot attack without it being an all-in. You also don't have to play colossus wars(big plus here).
- You can use more chrono's on nexus without dying! :D
- warpgate takes a ludicrous amount of time compared to last patch. It really does. Stargate first builds get easily steamrolled by 1base aggression, whether it be a 4gate or 3gate robo. You simply won't have the resources or units to defend properly.
Can't you defend with Stargate + Void Ray in much the same way as you could defend with Robo + Immortal?
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Void rays cost 50 more gas than immortals and have significantly less dps against any target when they're charged. They're air units of course, but when you're defending that doesn't really do much for you.
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Even if the enemy can have an extra sentry or two before a 4 gate hits, wouldnt it be pretty effective still as you can chrono it out and only add 10 secs to warp gate tech?
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may i still point out that 4g is still viable
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People are overreacting... +20 seconds warp gate research time is not a complete game changer. The matchup is still pretty much the same. It does make 4 gate slightly easier to defend with a non-4 gate build, more so the 10 gate builds like K4G. But if you think builds like 1 gate robo are now viable then I'll just continue to easily roll over you with a 4 gate...
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I disagree. 20 seconds is an extremely long time at that point in the game. Its almost long to squeeze in an extra round of zealots off of 3 gateways, and is definitely long enough to let a 2nd voidray or immortal finish. It also means that the enemy has to use an extra CB on his WG tech if he wants to finish it ASAP. It might be interesting to see how 4 warp gaters use the extra build time they have from their warp gates. Maybe they can find a way to get the gateways up slightly sooner and have a full round of units ready to escort the probe out to make the proxy pylon. The 4 gate certainly isn't dead, but it will have to evolve and it certainly isn't as strong as it used to be.
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On May 11 2011 15:20 Anihc wrote:
People are overreacting... +20 seconds warp gate research time is not a complete game changer. The matchup is still pretty much the same. It does make 4 gate slightly easier to defend with a non-4 gate build, more so the 10 gate builds like K4G. But if you think builds like 1 gate robo are now viable then I'll just continue to easily roll over you with a 4 gate...
That's what I've been doing. Some people have the khutspa to triple chrono their nexus and take an early 2nd gas while my probe is still in their base. It's only 20 seconds, not an hour.
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20 seconds is significant enough that once their scouting probe dies you can build basically whatever. It's not significant enough that you can start plopping down tech before you start a stalker, like some people I've talked to imagine.
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i never 4 gated pre patch but i was testing it out today in some custom games and i had 4 gateways and warpgate tech all done by 5:33 with the same econ as a normal 4gate. Im not sure how many chronos were used on warpgate tech before the patch but i used 4 on this one and had it all ready at 5:33.
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I love how this patch was supposed to be the "fix PvP" patch, but people cried about 2 gate zealot rushes and now it's not. Pvp is basically going to be a 4-gate war in masters while everyone else goes crazy and tries to do dumb tech builds which aren't going to work against competent 4-gaters. The difference between last patch and this 1 in a 4-gate situation is basically one chrono boost. The sentry build time just doesn't help very much.
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so it just made it so 1 extra chrono is needed to make it finish at the regular timing?
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I'm trying something like delayed gas offensive 2gate opening into robo and expo now, picking up Charge after expo and going 3/1/1 from two bases.
Phoenixes in good numbers can seem to keep the sentry count low on the opposing side for Chargelots and Immortals to reign, and since Immortals seem to be quite Immortal, the 2 gases from the main base typically seemed to saturate the build well enough before third.
Only got a few games out yesterday, so will have to see how it goes tonight. 
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I'm confused. The biggest deal with the patch was the reducing of Pylon range, right? Surely something Sentry based is what people should be looking for now that you only need half the Force Fields you did before.
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On May 11 2011 15:36 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 15:20 Anihc wrote:
People are overreacting... +20 seconds warp gate research time is not a complete game changer. The matchup is still pretty much the same. It does make 4 gate slightly easier to defend with a non-4 gate build, more so the 10 gate builds like K4G. But if you think builds like 1 gate robo are now viable then I'll just continue to easily roll over you with a 4 gate... That's what I've been doing. Some people have the khutspa to triple chrono their nexus and take an early 2nd gas while my probe is still in their base. It's only 20 seconds, not an hour.
20 seconds is huge for timings though.The fourgate build will have more idle time before WG finishes making other builds that make units with normal gateways much easier to defend with.
Also sentry build time is faster so getting a sentry asap will make it able to practically FF the ramp twice by the time the push comes.
I don't think it will be hard to stop 4 gates with 3 chrono on nexus and a 2nd gas fast now.
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On May 11 2011 16:44 Drowsy wrote:
I love how this patch was supposed to be the "fix PvP" patch, but people cried about 2 gate zealot rushes and now it's not. Pvp is basically going to be a 4-gate war in masters while everyone else goes crazy and tries to do dumb tech builds which aren't going to work against competent 4-gaters. The difference between last patch and this 1 in a 4-gate situation is basically one chrono boost. The sentry build time just doesn't help very much.
The stalker build time reduction combined with +40 seconds on warpgate was going to be the changes that really made 4gate very easily combatable.
The reduction of it to only 20 seconds and removal of the stalker build time reduction basically meant the patch isn't going to do a whole lot.
I'm not sure why the stalker reduction went through. Perhaps fast stalkers out of 3-4 non-warpgates proved too good vs other races?
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been testing 4 gate with 4 chronoboost @ cybernetics core.
i can consistently get a warp gate finished @ 5:34-5:35 seconds
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On May 11 2011 17:31 Codeskye wrote:
been testing 4 gate with 4 chronoboost @ cybernetics core.
i can consistently get a warp gate finished @ 5:34-5:35 seconds
Is the chronoboost the only change? (econ, 12 gate?`)
And how much do the pylon radius change your 4gate against a sentry defend..
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On May 11 2011 17:48 dangerjoe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 17:31 Codeskye wrote:
been testing 4 gate with 4 chronoboost @ cybernetics core.
i can consistently get a warp gate finished @ 5:34-5:35 seconds
Is the chronoboost the only change? (econ, 12 gate?`) And how much do the pylon radius change your 4gate against a sentry defend..
It "seems" like adding one extra chronoboost to the cybernetics core solves the problem for a regular 4 gate, although I might be off by around 5 seconds.
Pylon range is the problem: any range units can clearly shoot any pylons below ramp, so you'll have to be creative if you want to do aggresive 4 gate.
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Phoenix does just fine against blink if you control well. Switch tech to immortals or chargelots after harass and you'll be fine. He can't ninja expand like he would against robo because you'll kill all his probes.
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EPT
