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Great post, and damn I never thought about checking sentry energies, but that can be damn useful.
On May 05 2011 16:40 ShiroUtsuRi wrote:
thank you ... from now on I will hide my other 2 sentries and the zergs will be at panic-mode ^^ helpful for toss, too!
I do not believe that will really work. Around 5-5:30 zerg will sac an ovi if he does not see enough units and you can either let him see your entire base, or use the sentries to kill the ovi - at which point he sees the sentries and the energy levels.
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Great post.
'Saturation' is really one of those words that stops looking like a real word when you see it enough.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
Sheth you are a total Boss for doing this. I learned heaps!!!
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Awesome post, thanks Sheth.
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On May 05 2011 23:07 Onos wrote:Great post, and damn I never thought about checking sentry energies, but that can be damn useful. Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 16:40 ShiroUtsuRi wrote:
thank you ... from now on I will hide my other 2 sentries and the zergs will be at panic-mode ^^ helpful for toss, too! I do not believe that will really work. Around 5-5:30 zerg will sac an ovi if he does not see enough units and you can either let him see your entire base, or use the sentries to kill the ovi - at which point he sees the sentries and the energy levels.
Even just making him sac an ovie is a nice little win. On the maps with the big mains you can often kill the ovie with 1 or 2 sentries, too, which can throw them off.
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Holy crap.
Honestly, Sheth is probably my favorite poster on TL.net. Thanks for the contribution!
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Wow I've not given much thought to this before, but this is seriously helpful! Thanks a lot!
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Thanks Sheth.
That is something I guess every Zerg knows to a degree but never managed to structure in such a way.
Good Job !
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Amazing info, beautifully written.
The best part, is I read it in my head in Sheth's voice :D
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I'm glad this was spotlighted or else i would have missed it. Thanks Sheth!
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Hey sheth thanks so much for the info much appreciated!
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This guide will certainly help me out and make me pay more attention to saturation when I scout. Thanks for posting this guide :D!
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2011 01:11 Saracen wrote:Thanks for posting dood!  EDIT: Wow this is a pretty sick post thanks for sharing. A few points: - This doesn't scale linearly because (as you mentioned), you get decreasing rate of returns when you reach 20-24 saturation. So it looks more like: 12-16 < 16-20 ~< 20-24 < 12-16 (2 base) < 16-20 (2 base) ~< 20-24 (2 base). Also, you start scaling by 8 drones instead of 4 drones on the 2 base example, making it even more nonlinear (which isn't a bad thing in this case because it takes more workers to make a difference on 2 base compared to 1, just pointing it out though).
- For some really tight timings, I don't think you'll be able to afford being 2 levels of saturation ahead of your opponent (like versus 1gas 4gate). Even against 6gate, I find I can only be at 50 drones max (38 on minerals -> 19 2base) to his ~40 (34 on minerals -> 17 on 2base).
- I thought a MULE was ~6 workers, not 4? That was always my impression anyways.
- For Terrans supersaturating the gold, you have to consider that they're not going to be able to support the production because before they take it, they only have the amount of production facilities necessary to produce off of nongold bases (usually24 2base + MULEs saturation if they take the gold as their 3rd). So they have to build more production facilities to keep up with the income boost, which means it'll take at least a full minute before you see any noticeable increase in production. Then, they hit a huge production spike, followed by a significant drop in production once the gold gets mined out (however long that takes, but it shouldn't be very long, like ~5 minutes, if they're constantly dropping MULEs there).
- This post really emphasizes why you have to keep on expanding as Zerg (especially taking that 3rd at a reasonable time). It's not that hard to skyrocket to 60+ drones by the 9 minute mark, but you're going to be getting limited returns compared to what you could be potentially getting if your 3rd isn't up by then.
- It's also really important to be able to approximate these saturations by glancing at a mineral line to be able to guess whether or not he's cutting economy for an attack.
Anways, thanks for bringing up this topic. It's definitely not covered enough given how important it is to consider, especially as a Zerg player.
Saracen why are you a mod? You bash perfectly good threads and then you wanna suck this guys dick who makes a rambling, theorycrafted, poorly written garbage thread.
This guide is full of mis-information and very very basic stuff.
"when the Terran take scv's off gas you can be fairly certain he isn't making banshees or tanks" LOL REALLY THANKS FOR THAT KNOWLEDGE. And I'm pretty sure zerg would have a hard time just parking an ovie at the gas to constantly watch it without it being sniped down. And I can think of plenty of 4 gas 2 base terran all ins. And WTF is up with the - if you spawn close positions you should 6pool. I hope that's a joke.
The basics I got from this article were simply the basics of macro zerg style:
- You want more workers than your opponent
- Don't overdrone or you can be killed
- Rush distance plays a part in how aggressively you can drone
Nothing new was learned here by anyone above platinum league to be honest. Also I personally believe that trying to play in this "Idra/Macro Style/Stay ahead in drones and 1 production cycle behind your opponent" is not very good for bronze-platinum players because without good game savy and understanding (that they don't have at that level) they will fuck it up very often and be killed by anyone that does any sort of optimal timing attack.
Also the Saracen reply is almost as terrible as the original post. A Mule is ~ 4 SCV's. The OP highlights the importance of having a certain level of saturation/drones based of the distance from your enemy. Not "the importance to always expand as a zerg". If a Terran 1 bases, taking a 3rd would contradict what the OP is saying you should do.
And the Bronze Zergs flock to this thread thinking its literary gold. Sorry it's not. Move along.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 06 2011 08:41 saxonhamish wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2011 01:11 Saracen wrote:Thanks for posting dood! EDIT: Wow this is a pretty sick post thanks for sharing. A few points: - This doesn't scale linearly because (as you mentioned), you get decreasing rate of returns when you reach 20-24 saturation. So it looks more like: 12-16 < 16-20 ~< 20-24 < 12-16 (2 base) < 16-20 (2 base) ~< 20-24 (2 base). Also, you start scaling by 8 drones instead of 4 drones on the 2 base example, making it even more nonlinear (which isn't a bad thing in this case because it takes more workers to make a difference on 2 base compared to 1, just pointing it out though).
- For some really tight timings, I don't think you'll be able to afford being 2 levels of saturation ahead of your opponent (like versus 1gas 4gate). Even against 6gate, I find I can only be at 50 drones max (38 on minerals -> 19 2base) to his ~40 (34 on minerals -> 17 on 2base).
- I thought a MULE was ~6 workers, not 4? That was always my impression anyways.
- For Terrans supersaturating the gold, you have to consider that they're not going to be able to support the production because before they take it, they only have the amount of production facilities necessary to produce off of nongold bases (usually24 2base + MULEs saturation if they take the gold as their 3rd). So they have to build more production facilities to keep up with the income boost, which means it'll take at least a full minute before you see any noticeable increase in production. Then, they hit a huge production spike, followed by a significant drop in production once the gold gets mined out (however long that takes, but it shouldn't be very long, like ~5 minutes, if they're constantly dropping MULEs there).
- This post really emphasizes why you have to keep on expanding as Zerg (especially taking that 3rd at a reasonable time). It's not that hard to skyrocket to 60+ drones by the 9 minute mark, but you're going to be getting limited returns compared to what you could be potentially getting if your 3rd isn't up by then.
- It's also really important to be able to approximate these saturations by glancing at a mineral line to be able to guess whether or not he's cutting economy for an attack.
Anways, thanks for bringing up this topic. It's definitely not covered enough given how important it is to consider, especially as a Zerg player. Saracen why are you a mod? You bash perfectly good threads and then you wanna suck this guys dick who makes a rambling, theorycrafted, poorly written garbage thread.
This guide is full of mis-information and very very basic stuff.
"when the Terran take scv's off gas you can be fairly certain he isn't making banshees or tanks" LOL REALLY THANKS FOR THAT KNOWLEDGE. And I'm pretty sure zerg would have a hard time just parking an ovie at the gas to constantly watch it without it being sniped down. And I can think of plenty of 4 gas 2 base terran all ins. And WTF is up with the - if you spawn close positions you should 6pool. I hope that's a joke.
The basics I got from this article were simply the basics of macro zerg style:
- You want more workers than your opponent
- Don't overdrone or you can be killed
- Rush distance plays a part in how aggressively you can drone
Nothing new was learned here by anyone above platinum league to be honest. Also I personally believe that trying to play in this "Idra/Macro Style/Stay ahead in drones and 1 production cycle behind your opponent" is not very good for bronze-platinum players because without good game savy and understanding (that they don't have at that level) they will fuck it up very often and be killed by anyone that does any sort of optimal timing attack.
Also the Saracen reply is almost as terrible as the original post. A Mule is ~ 4 SCV's. The OP highlights the importance of having a certain level of saturation/drones based of the distance from your enemy. Not "the importance to always expand as a zerg". If a Terran 1 bases, taking a 3rd would contradict what the OP is saying you should do. And the Bronze Zergs flock to this thread thinking its literary gold. Sorry it's not. Move along.
You're so wrong it's unbelievable and I really hope you get perma banned for flaming a mod like that.
The thread is not theorycrafting, it's stuff Sheth does on his stream all the time.
You don't have to "park your overlord over their gas", just keep it somewhere that you can poke in, check the count, and pull back. I will agree that not all of this will be great for low level players, but you don't discuss strategy as being limited by what you can do in practice, you figure out what you can theoretically do and make it happen (okay, maybe you need to do what you can theoretically do with 200 apm, but the basic idea is still there).
Also I find it funny that you rip on Bronze players at the end when you yourself sound like a Platinum player with a god complex.
A note on "general rules":
This is true from many things I've studied, but I'll draw on something I've studied a lot, chess.
First you learn the general rules:
"Double pawns are bad"
"Rooks are better than knights"
Then, when you're really good, you learn all the times when it's okay to break the rules, or how to evaluate when two of the general rules come into contact:
"The doubled pawns here will actually not be weak and will control some important squares"
"I can sacrifice my rook for his knight and leave him with weak doubled pawns that can probably be won or blockaded later."
Edit: Spoilered his garbage so it didn't have to be part of my post.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 06 2011 08:55 MoreFaSho wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 08:41 saxonhamish wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2011 01:11 Saracen wrote:Thanks for posting dood! EDIT: Wow this is a pretty sick post thanks for sharing. A few points: - This doesn't scale linearly because (as you mentioned), you get decreasing rate of returns when you reach 20-24 saturation. So it looks more like: 12-16 < 16-20 ~< 20-24 < 12-16 (2 base) < 16-20 (2 base) ~< 20-24 (2 base). Also, you start scaling by 8 drones instead of 4 drones on the 2 base example, making it even more nonlinear (which isn't a bad thing in this case because it takes more workers to make a difference on 2 base compared to 1, just pointing it out though).
- For some really tight timings, I don't think you'll be able to afford being 2 levels of saturation ahead of your opponent (like versus 1gas 4gate). Even against 6gate, I find I can only be at 50 drones max (38 on minerals -> 19 2base) to his ~40 (34 on minerals -> 17 on 2base).
- I thought a MULE was ~6 workers, not 4? That was always my impression anyways.
- For Terrans supersaturating the gold, you have to consider that they're not going to be able to support the production because before they take it, they only have the amount of production facilities necessary to produce off of nongold bases (usually24 2base + MULEs saturation if they take the gold as their 3rd). So they have to build more production facilities to keep up with the income boost, which means it'll take at least a full minute before you see any noticeable increase in production. Then, they hit a huge production spike, followed by a significant drop in production once the gold gets mined out (however long that takes, but it shouldn't be very long, like ~5 minutes, if they're constantly dropping MULEs there).
- This post really emphasizes why you have to keep on expanding as Zerg (especially taking that 3rd at a reasonable time). It's not that hard to skyrocket to 60+ drones by the 9 minute mark, but you're going to be getting limited returns compared to what you could be potentially getting if your 3rd isn't up by then.
- It's also really important to be able to approximate these saturations by glancing at a mineral line to be able to guess whether or not he's cutting economy for an attack.
Anways, thanks for bringing up this topic. It's definitely not covered enough given how important it is to consider, especially as a Zerg player. Saracen why are you a mod? You bash perfectly good threads and then you wanna suck this guys dick who makes a rambling, theorycrafted, poorly written garbage thread.
This guide is full of mis-information and very very basic stuff.
"when the Terran take scv's off gas you can be fairly certain he isn't making banshees or tanks" LOL REALLY THANKS FOR THAT KNOWLEDGE. And I'm pretty sure zerg would have a hard time just parking an ovie at the gas to constantly watch it without it being sniped down. And I can think of plenty of 4 gas 2 base terran all ins. And WTF is up with the - if you spawn close positions you should 6pool. I hope that's a joke.
The basics I got from this article were simply the basics of macro zerg style:
- You want more workers than your opponent
- Don't overdrone or you can be killed
- Rush distance plays a part in how aggressively you can drone
Nothing new was learned here by anyone above platinum league to be honest. Also I personally believe that trying to play in this "Idra/Macro Style/Stay ahead in drones and 1 production cycle behind your opponent" is not very good for bronze-platinum players because without good game savy and understanding (that they don't have at that level) they will fuck it up very often and be killed by anyone that does any sort of optimal timing attack.
Also the Saracen reply is almost as terrible as the original post. A Mule is ~ 4 SCV's. The OP highlights the importance of having a certain level of saturation/drones based of the distance from your enemy. Not "the importance to always expand as a zerg". If a Terran 1 bases, taking a 3rd would contradict what the OP is saying you should do. And the Bronze Zergs flock to this thread thinking its literary gold. Sorry it's not. Move along. You're so wrong it's unbelievable and I really hope you get perma banned for flaming a mod like that. The thread is not theorycrafting, it's stuff Sheth does on his stream all the time. You don't have to "park your overlord over their gas", just keep it somewhere that you can poke in, check the count, and pull back. I will agree that not all of this will be great for low level players, but you don't discuss strategy as being limited by what you can do in practice, you figure out what you can theoretically do and make it happen (okay, maybe you need to do what you can theoretically do with 200 apm, but the basic idea is still there). Also I find it funny that you rip on Bronze players at the end when you yourself sound like a Platinum player with a god complex. A note on "general rules": This is true from many things I've studied, but I'll draw on something I've studied a lot, chess. First you learn the general rules: "Double pawns are bad" "Rooks are better than knights" Then, when you're really good, you learn all the times when it's okay to break the rules, or how to evaluate when two of the general rules come into contact: "The doubled pawns here will actually not be weak and will control some important squares" "I can sacrifice my rook for his knight and leave him with weak doubled pawns that can probably be won or blockaded later." Edit: Spoilered his garbage so it didn't have to be part of my post.
I'm not ripping into Bronze players, as I and most people were one once, I am simply trying to help lower players discern what is good and bad information. Playing this style is for players with a very good understanding of the game, and players with a very thorough understanding of the game didn't learn anything from reading that as it's all common knowledge, that's the point a make.
The other point I make is that in comparison to other guides I have watched/read about playing Macro Zerg, this doesn't rate very highly and doesn't warrant the sort of praise that it's getting.
EDIT: and good players deny overlord scouting. You sac an Ovi at a certain time to get as much info as you can, but you can't have it there for any consistent period of time so I don't know what game you're playing.
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the smaller details become more and more important the higher you go up in skill
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On May 06 2011 08:41 saxonhamish wrote:
The basics I got from this article were simply the basics of macro zerg style:
- You want more workers than your opponent
- Don't overdrone or you can be killed
- Rush distance plays a part in how aggressively you can drone
You clearly suck at reading. There's a lot more detailed information than that in the OP.
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i love you, sheth. ur the coolest kid on the block! :D
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EPT
