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[G] [D] Zerg Mineral Saturation - Page 5

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Silentenigma
Profile Joined July 2009
Turkey2037 Posts
May 04 2011 23:45 GMT
#81
Thanks for great guide!
日本語が上手ですね
GenesisX
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada4267 Posts
May 04 2011 23:57 GMT
#82
this is sick awesome
133 221 333 123 111
Filosoraptor
Profile Joined February 2011
United States21 Posts
May 05 2011 01:09 GMT
#83
Dear Sheth,

Your voice is like a warm glass of milk before bed. I don't even play zerg but I still watch your stream as often as I can. I just can't get enough of that ear-candy!

You should record some of these guides so I can saturate my ears with that angelic manner voice of yours.

no homo <333
Wise men say forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza
Soliduok
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada222 Posts
May 05 2011 02:45 GMT
#84
Awesome post Sheth! Thanks!

Saturation has certainly been a problem of mine since playing SC2. In the beginning I learned I needed more drones to win. After winning many games with many drones, I learned of such a thing as overdroning. From losing to overdroning I have learned of all-ining. From all-ining has come more losing and now I am trying to learn proper play.

Some maps I find myself being stuck on 2 bases simply because I don't even want to make the units to take down rocks, or, the third is too far away and therefor, too difficult to defend. I think on most maps in most cases Zergs are very comfortable taking their natural and it feels "right". But I notice in myself at least, that when it comes time to take a third I feel "ugh, hmm".

Do you have any suggestions for taking a third? Is it putting pressure on your opponent first? Is it making some defensive units prior to taking? Or is it just too situational to really say specifically?
iruehl
Profile Joined September 2010
United States31 Posts
May 05 2011 03:08 GMT
#85
Thanks you for writing this guide, but i'm sad that i had switch to terran.

This could have help me a lot when i was zerg.
jazzbassmatt
Profile Joined August 2010
United States566 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-05 03:20:11
May 05 2011 03:20 GMT
#86
Dear Sheth, (I don't think you mentioned this in the OP)

at what times is it best to only saturate the gas at your 3rd? You talked about gas timings as far as scouting in terran/protoss, but didn't really mention the value of gas as a zerg player. How highly do you tend to favor gas? At what times is it best to take your geysers at your natural? At what times is it best to only saturate the geysers at your third base, and not the minerals? What about late game? What about timings when holding off early aggression? What about when facing toss who goes for FFE?

I feel like I have general ideas of when to take and saturate my geysers, but it doesn't always end up working out, and I'm really interested in your thought process behind your timings.

Thanks so much!

jazzbassmatt
socommaster123
Profile Joined May 2010
United States578 Posts
May 05 2011 04:04 GMT
#87
Nice Write up youre too nice sheth may the force be with you.... always (ive always wanted to say that)
Idra White Ra Sheth DRG SaSe Thorzain GOGO!
L3g3nd_
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand10461 Posts
May 05 2011 04:35 GMT
#88
amazing thread, some great info. you rock!
https://twitter.com/#!/IrisAnother
DrDoom
Profile Joined December 2010
United States107 Posts
May 05 2011 04:59 GMT
#89
Awesome post! You are a gentleman and a scholar.
SolidusR
Profile Joined November 2010
United States217 Posts
May 05 2011 05:22 GMT
#90
Oh wow Sheth, I am confident this is going to make me a much better player as I was already starting to tinker with goal-oriented mineral saturation with fabulous results. I had some idea of where the "money" was, so to speak, but now I will know exactly what I'm doing. Thank you so much, and please keep streaming! <3
cosimorondo
Profile Joined November 2010
United States78 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-05 06:03:43
May 05 2011 06:02 GMT
#91
I think it's acceptable to use a mental model of linear scaling for greater saturation than your opponent simply for the sake of quick calculations. The model Sheth has presented is certainly superior to the one that I used up till now that consisted of "stay at least one base ahead of terran".

Here are a couple questions I hope Sheth can address when he expands this guide:

Sheth, do you have any thoughts on saturation for Zerg two base timings, or do you feel that those builds are too non-standard to warrant discussion in this thread? At times I feel as though the rush to outproduce in terms of economy chains us as Zerg to our immobile bases in order to defend, taking away one of our unit strengths which is mobility.

Also, is there a point where you draw a line, in trying to have a better economy than Terran or Protoss, if they are playing unusually greedy? Or do you attempt to outpace them to infinity? (and beyond)
johanngrunt
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Hong Kong1555 Posts
May 05 2011 06:31 GMT
#92
What are some tips to check their mineral saturation?

Do you sac an ovie every few minutes to check?
COLT217
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany70 Posts
May 05 2011 07:40 GMT
#93
thank you ... from now on I will hide my other 2 sentries and the zergs will be at panic-mode ^^ helpful for toss, too!
"[race] is so IMBA! - for [race] fill in the last one, you lost against. But be carefull of mirrormatchups!"
Everhate
Profile Joined September 2010
United States640 Posts
May 05 2011 08:21 GMT
#94
Great guide, Mr. Sheth, and a solid way of looking at things.

I would note, as several have used this to ask questions about base timings, that there are times you may want to take bases even if you can't or won't be able to saturate the minerals, just to get the additional gas, with only a minor mineral income. That approach can be beneficial at times, though normally doesn't occur until the 5-base mark or so (from my observation/experience).
Arn
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden118 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-05 09:26:00
May 05 2011 09:25 GMT
#95
On May 05 2011 07:46 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 05 2011 06:53 Arn wrote:
Given equal distance to all mineral patches, + Show Spoiler +
every worker up to 16 adds 100% efficiency up to 16 mineral workers. At >16 workers, glitching may occur, but it will balance out especially on far patches. The real result is that although glitching occurs, each worker does however generate a net boost in income - although only on average 50% as much as each additional worker beyond the 0th. The roof is at 24.

So:
0-16: Each worker adds 100% optimal income (~45 income/minute)
16-24: Each worker adds ~50% optimal income (~22.5 income/minute)
>24: Each worker adds 0% optimal income.

So, in short: Prio #1 is to saturate bases with >16 workers each, and if you need to further improve mineral income without expanding, 24 mineral workers per base is max.

Compare the cost of an expansion: 350 minerals & 1 larvae, to the cost and income of workers. Let's say you have 32 workers on two bases. You can either expand or build 7 workers for your 350 minerals (building workers costs more larvae, of course). Each worker will increase your income by 22.5ipm. Your additional hatchery, given that you are at OPTIMAL (16) saturation will net you exactly 0 income. But what happens when you add more workers, and where is the point where it is better to expand than to increase saturation?

Case A, expanding:
A = 45*x-350

Case B, saturating:
B = 22.5*x

Where is A = B?Where 45*x-350=22.5*x, thus 22.5x=350, thus x = 350/22.5, thus 15.555 (...). So, in other words, it coincidentally happens to be so that saturating is always more mineralefficient until you oversaturate, which might be good to keep in mind. However, the larvae cost is not accounted for, so it is gamewise unrealistic. You'd have to balance the equation up somehow, valuing larvae in minerals, but I won't attempt to do that.

As a rule of thumb: Mineralwise, the largest economic boost per worker is achieved between 0-16 workers per base, and mineralwise, the net gain is larger from saturating than getting an extra base.

There're alot of factors to factor in though: Larvae access, defendability, gas, future saturation, etc. etc.

If you keep the numbers 16 and 24 in mind you'll have come a long way by the way.

Extra note: If someone likes Google Translate (or speaks swedish), I wrote a guide about mineral saturation on our Team Property forums [G & D] Mineral Saturation etc.. If there's interest, I can translate it and update it. It has pictures and gametested facts, such as node-differentiation incomewise.



Need to stop you right there. We don't play this game in a vacuum, and there's a hefty dropoff between workers 17-20 and workers 21-24. Far patch 3rds mine roughly double would close patch 3rds mine.

45/minute is not an approximation, but the maximum that close patch workers can mine. Far patch workers mine at 39, and this averages (on most maps) to about 42-43.

Simple arithmetic shows that your mining numbers are very off-base, as maximum 1-base saturation is 816 (102 per patch).

Your maximum saturation would give:
112.5 per patch and 900 minerals/minute.


Thanks for the corrections, I just have to defend my "given equal mineral distance" statement - I realize that different patches generate different income, and didn't have the exact numbers, however I do have some %ages. Basically there seem to be three types of patches, close/mid/far, which mine at 100%/88%/84% (img) in relation to eachothers. The reason I assumed equal distance is because it was not the point - it will equal out.

However, saying that each worker 16-24 adds exactly 50% efficiency is correct, the real numbers are higher for the first few workers and lower for the last - the first workers will go to far-patches without glitching.

But okay, if I am gonna do theorycrafting I'll do it more thoroughly next time, else it might be of too little real value.
Property fightiiing! (Swe SC2 clan) | http://property-clan.com | FOR THE SWARM!
joeyBanana
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany77 Posts
May 05 2011 09:50 GMT
#96
Dear Sheth,

really nice guide, that you've written there. Even for someone whos native language is not english, this concept is understandable.

Just one question: At which kind of skill-level do you aim this thoughts ? Do you think it is an good idea, from Bronze to Grandmaster, to start using and applying your idea about saturation and worker-counting, or is it more kind of a "high-level-thing" ? In other words: Should a Plat-Player concentrate his APM on "Injections, Producing and Overlords" ? Or should he start applying your ideas on his lower level, to get it down for higher leagues ?

Btw: The thing with the sentries -> Just great! Have to agree with the guy, who said that this was easily the best piece of advise against toss in this forum.

greetings and <3<3<3 from germany
Premature Egrackulation
Sairon
Profile Joined September 2010
47 Posts
May 05 2011 09:57 GMT
#97
On May 05 2011 08:29 AzureD wrote:
I have a bit of a problem with the tiers on saturation. I find that 12 - 16 is a way bigger difference than 16 - 20. Difference between 20 - 24 is really small. Once you get past 16 on minerals it just gets less and less effective. Like past 16 on minerals per base each extra worker is more like 90% a worker and then 80% and then 65% as efficient all the way up to 24 where each extra is 0% as efficient. That is why 2 base with 12 workers each is way better than 1 base with 24. The difference is several tiers bigger than previous tiers. I don't even include 16 per 2 base because that is even bigger than 12 per 2 base. As for example having 24 one one base and 12 on another is actually not as good as having 16 per base even though you have less workers.


This is almost certainly down to the number of close vs far away patches. The ideal amount of works for minerals is most likely ( far patches * 3 ) + ( close patches * 2 ). It would be interesting to know exactly how much difference there is between 2 vs 3 on a close patch. Of course this varies a bit as the distance isn't constant even between 2 separate close patches, same goes for far.
szil4rd
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany11 Posts
May 05 2011 12:47 GMT
#98
"If you ever see 4 sentries with the same energy that means he has 4 gates."
This is so clever. Why the hell didnt i have already thought of this.
Thanks Sheth <3
yann
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
119 Posts
May 05 2011 12:51 GMT
#99
On May 05 2011 08:09 [Atomic]Peace wrote:
One thing I love about Sheth above all else is that he is one of the only top players making huge contributions to our written understanding of Starcraft. The general public has a much improved ability to understand Zerg thanks to his extensive posts on the Strategy forum and his commentary + replay packs. Thanks a lot Sheth!


Exactly! Your contributions are awsome!!!! All the streaming, reppacks and your posts help so MUCH!

Sheth fighting!
My life for Aiur!
BleaK_
Profile Joined November 2010
Norway593 Posts
May 05 2011 12:57 GMT
#100
Awsome awsome! Thanks alot!
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