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[G] [D] Zerg Mineral Saturation - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Golgotha
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)8418 Posts
May 04 2011 16:46 GMT
#21
thanks sheth i am really interested in the bit about the situation of getting more econ than necessary. So you are saying that if my opponent is on two base, I should be content with 3 fully saturated bases instead of having 4 fully saturated bases? Thanks!
TinyDino
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom28 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-04 16:59:58
May 04 2011 16:55 GMT
#22
On May 05 2011 01:11 Saracen wrote:

[*]I thought a MULE was ~6 workers, not 4? That was always my impression anyways.


I am reasonably sure that a MULE is about 4 workers.

Some snippets from Liquipedia:

"Their timed life allows 8 or 9 mining trips which totals 240/270 minerals respectively on a blue mineral patch and 336/378 on a yellow one. This works out to 160/180 and 224/252 minerals per game-minute respectively."

"MULEs are as effective as around 4 (±0.3) SCVs, as SCVs average 42-43 minerals per game-minute on blue mineral patches (for two or less workers per patch)."

EDIT. Sick post by the way, I really can't wait to see the finished product!

EDIT2. Completed the second quote with the brackets.
TheAngryZergling
Profile Joined January 2011
United States387 Posts
May 04 2011 17:01 GMT
#23
Awesome! Thanks for another great contribution sheth. :D
Everything in life is most clearly explained through a Starcraft analogy.
Liquid`Sheth
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States2095 Posts
May 04 2011 17:03 GMT
#24
Thanks tiny, gonna post that info in. Also gonna add a level I missed... 8 to 12 (2 bases)
Team LiquidUnderneath it all they were really quite nice. They just got screwed up. Mostly by stuff that wasn't entirely their fault.
MoreFaSho
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1427 Posts
May 04 2011 17:03 GMT
#25
So Sheth, I watch your stream very very often and the way you transfer often seems mysterious to me. Do you try to transfer from both your main and your natural when you take your 3rd but still keep your drone rally to the local base?
I always try to shield slam face, just to make sure it doesnt work
brotosterone
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States260 Posts
May 04 2011 17:07 GMT
#26
Hey Sheth,

So I hear a lot from many players, I heard it first from Day9 and Artosis, when you get ahead, get even MORE ahead, etc.

Is this telling me that in a situation where I take out or deny an opponent's third base, it's not optimal for me to take my own 4th or 5th? I understand that I should be prepared for a counter attack or an all in, but if I am prepared, should I settle with my 3 (or 4) base economy?

How about versus a player turtling on 3 base, is it not in my best interest to take the whole map as many players would say?
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-04 17:19:42
May 04 2011 17:19 GMT
#27
Yeah the mules are 4 workers 1-16 and 6 workers 17-24.
Nice read.
RMmanlots
Profile Joined May 2010
United States95 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-04 17:29:29
May 04 2011 17:28 GMT
#28
Sheth,

First of all, let me just say that you are one of my favorite zerg players. I'm a huge fan.

Second, I want to take this opportunity to ask you a question. How do you inject larva? While watching replays, I see neither the queens hotkeyed to a single group (for the minmap method), nor do I see the camera jerking all around to every hatchery (for the backspace method). How do you do it?

Thanks again! Keep up the good work!
Do you want to live forever?
archonOOid
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1983 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-04 17:53:09
May 04 2011 17:33 GMT
#29
Do you have to be two levels ahead in the late game as well and what does that translates into, in number of workers and bases, compared to T/P? What about the thread by lalush, I think, where he claimed that no more than 3 bases were necessary, in other words, what is the highest level a zerg should go to?

Please shed light, sheth!
I'm Quotable (IQ)
MilesTeg
Profile Joined September 2010
France1271 Posts
May 04 2011 17:37 GMT
#30
I had a dream the other day, a dream that the strategy forum was full of great players making interesting points. Sorry I don't have anything to add, just wanted to thank you.
Notfragile
Profile Joined April 2011
Greece713 Posts
May 04 2011 17:38 GMT
#31
Dear Sheth,

I would like to thank you for this eye oppening post. This is one of the most well written and sophisticated posts in the last few months. I have always thought about this "3 levels above" rule of thumb as something that comes as a hunch. But you have put it in a more managable-countable way, making it easier for someone who has not 500+ games under their belt to stop loosing stupidly to pushes while expanding.

Sincerely,
a troubled fellow Zerg


"The art of war is of vital importance to the state" || MVP.Keen fan since the day he stole my heart with a double 2rax. http://i.imgur.com/A82cl.gif
Liquid`Sheth
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States2095 Posts
May 04 2011 17:46 GMT
#32
Ok, added one more section about Gas Saturation. Working on more...

Morefasho -- Yes thats exactly what I do. I want each base to be equal. I also want them to grow equally. (16 at each then 17 then 18.. so on.)

Brotosterone -- By all means take a 4th base, however scout before you saturate it! Also Hi! <3

RMManLots -- Will discuss this later @ different post.

Archon -- I've never agreed 3 base is the most Zerg should go to. If you talk to Lalush about it I'm sure now he'll agree that 4 bases is pretty optimal for Zerg late game. 5 If you can take the gold and minimally saturate each would be the best. (Might as well take 8 or more and saturate each with 8 drones on minerals if you can, basically there is no limit man!)

@Miles + Fragile -- Thanks for the nice posts!
Team LiquidUnderneath it all they were really quite nice. They just got screwed up. Mostly by stuff that wasn't entirely their fault.
nanoscorp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1237 Posts
May 04 2011 17:47 GMT
#33
Thanks for a very helpful post. You're coming dangerously close to answering the "when should I make drones and when should I make army" question I've already started going for 12-16 x2 vs a lot of 1-base players and then switching to pure army and it's been working out pretty well. Would love to see the rest of your thoughts on this issue.
archonOOid
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1983 Posts
May 04 2011 17:52 GMT
#34
Nice answer sheth, but how about this:

If more worker/base ratio should remain low. Is a 6 bases with 12 workers at each base better than 4 bases with 18 works, from a defensive perspective. In general, doesn't more bases lead to less safety for each base?
I'm Quotable (IQ)
ifonlyiwereawsum
Profile Joined November 2010
United States484 Posts
May 04 2011 17:53 GMT
#35
I feel extremely obligated to ask what a bunker bank is. Thanks for such an extremely awesome post Sheth! In my opinion, learning when to drone and when not to drone is still such a hard thing to master. I don't have much to contribute either. Just wanted to say thanks! :D
LiquidSnute // Zai //
Leavzou
Profile Joined January 2011
France156 Posts
May 04 2011 17:54 GMT
#36
You should put a clear conclusion, because that's not easy to understand for a non-native english speaker ):
Liquid`Sheth
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States2095 Posts
May 04 2011 18:00 GMT
#37
Archon -- if you have 6 bases, its actually somewhat easier to defend. Alot of times you won't see your opponent come in with drops so your going to lose the hatch even with perfect defense. (say 2 drops with marines) So in the 6 base case you just move the drones to the 5th hatch, and kill his drop. And you traded 300 minerals for 2 drops! But honestly its all about your own style in this regard!

Leavzou -- Working on it.

@ifonly and nano -- Thanks
Team LiquidUnderneath it all they were really quite nice. They just got screwed up. Mostly by stuff that wasn't entirely their fault.
archonOOid
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1983 Posts
May 04 2011 18:01 GMT
#38
If zerg should "over expand" or at least have so many bases that the worker count at a specific base is low, does that correspond to a specific composition or play style? Is muta/ling or bane/ling/infest or any other composition favourable?
I'm Quotable (IQ)
Crackensan
Profile Joined August 2010
United States479 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-04 18:13:47
May 04 2011 18:10 GMT
#39
I like this, and it confirms in a small way my wierd, bizzard multiple expo/saturation theory.

I.E: If I have 4 bases, and 80 workers, I have 8 Gas, which is 24 Workers on Gas. (Gas*3)

80-24=56 Workers mining Minerals, which is only 14 drones mining PER BASE. (54 Mining Workers/4 Bases)

Which in equivilancey via Sheth's theories here, is pretty damned good. It's not perfect "24 drone/base saturation", but it works due to worker count/mineralpatch ratio's. (4*8=32 mineral patches under my direct control)

Using this logic, and confirming this, I can minimize damamge to my economy by spreading out my workers over multiple bases, while maintaining a healthy, vibrant economy to fund my 300 food push, remax, and tech switches.

I feel less stupid playing this way with Sheth confirming my suspicions. It also makes setting up new expo's easier and slightly safe, as less drones are vunerable to be sniped in a drone transfer.

This is pretty interesting stuff, Sheth. ♥
Tasteless: "Well this strategy is made of balls"--Concerning Fruitdealer Vs. BoXeR
kawaiiryuko
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States368 Posts
May 04 2011 18:11 GMT
#40
Sheth,

Thanks for the great post! Does your strategy change for Terrans if your calculations assume fewer gold mineral patches (AFAIK, most gold bases have 6 mineral patches, not 8)? How does that adjust your drone-count for bases?

I usually stick to mining 3 bases (approximately 66 drones) vs. any 2-base play. I'm having a slightly hard time reading your scale but I think you mean something like:

      If your opponent has:      Then you should have:

      12-16 (1 base)                   16-24 (1 base)
      16-20 (1 base)                   24 (1 base) or 8-12 (2 base)
      24 (1 base)                        8-16 (2 base)
      8-12 (2 base)                     12-20 (2 base)
      12-16 (2 base)                   16-24 (2 base) or 8-12 (3 base)
      24 (2 base)                        8-16 (3 base)

and so on.

Is that accurate? (I like tables. :D)
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