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On April 13 2011 06:21 BlueLagoon wrote:
Finally, aXa strategy is fine if we assume that he can do a minimum damage to the Protoss economy. If not, this is a waste of income due to the 6lings cost. But if we assume that the 6Lings manage to do some damage / waste of mining time / force defence or just disturb the BO of the opponent, this is an interesting opening.
As mentioned upper, this is a question of microing Lings / Zealot&Probes => Best micro wins.
I like the aXa's way of thinking. May be Zerg is not only a reactive race during the early game. We can be more aggressive with a good win ratio against Protoss... Sometimes people think something impossible which is not. Remember Boxer and his night elves... he develops the race, the strategy...
Sometimes we need to think different to go forward. I like The aggressive build presented by aXa!
What are you talking about?
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I noticed you mention that you don't prefer 9 pool on Backwater Gulch because of the longer rush distance. With 9 pool I have actually managed around 70-80% wins on that map (back when the ramp was terrible).
Since you don't know where he is going to spawn, I first send my overlord to one of the bases then after making the next overlord I do an extractor trick and send that drone to one of the other bases. Rally the 6 lings to the middle and right before they get there your drone and overlord will get to their respective bases and the path of the lings won't really be delayed. I then follow this up by taking the scouting drone and sending it to a gold base to make a hatch.
Basically how this ends up is:
1. The protoss player makes a forge. You should have enough time to prepare for 4 gate / dt / blink stalker / void ray if you time everything correctly.
2. The protoss holds with minimal damage and did not make a forge. You will have a tough time but it's not impossible.
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This guide is wonderfully written and I'll be practicing this build 
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About Backwater, the natural is so horrible i don't even consider playing on it.
Rudiment, what do you mean "wonderfully written" ? I'm not a native and i feel everytime i have to write that my english is poor, and i can't find a beauty in my word as i can in french. Do you mean it is clear and understandable?
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I am practicing this build and I have to say that I am having APM problems, but I still love it.
Even if I do zero damage with 9 pool I am not out, this build makes the game SO more fun, I was pretty sad for only knowing 15hatch 14 pool build basicly >.>
I was random since when this new season started and one of the reasons I wanted to focus on 1 race was to increase my options with build orders, cheese and stuff (be expert with 1 race). But unfortunetelly I ain't any creative to do such builds, so thank you for your time! This and the hidra drop followed by mutas are my favorite builds against protoss now
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We almost attend a zergling baneling infestor ultra on NASL tonight, Sheth vs Artosis game 1.
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On April 13 2011 11:56 aXa wrote:
We almost attend a zergling baneling infestor ultra on NASL tonight, Sheth vs Artosis game 1.
It was pretty much known before that Baneling infestor Ultra was good vs Protoss. Sheth didn't open 9 pool though
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Since you seem to be catching so much flack by the automatons, I'll give you my experience.
I read your guide, watched all your replays, and played a handful of games using your strategy in mid to upper diamond. It worked remarkably well. Here are some thoughts.
The 9 pool. Most non-elite protoss react extremely poorly to a 9-pool and consequently you can win the game just from that. In fact, in one game, I didn't even make lings. He overmade pylons to block and a forge, and I just went straight back to drones. You can amplify the mindgame by showing the baneling nest really early because they'll assume baneling bust is coming after the 9pool. If they do react properly (which people are sure to do if this becomes more popular), I'm not convinced the 9-pool is worth doing because...
Defending 4-gate. I didn't get enough experience with someone who reacts properly and STILL four gate on time. I've historically had terrible luck defending 4-gates with just zerglings, but perhaps I need to rethink how early to start unit production. This is an area that I think needs to be worked out.
Early Midgame weakness. How does this build effectively handle early air? Like three-gate-stargate all-in? You are fine against harass because early evo means quick spores, but against one-base zealot/voidray?
Endgame mindgames. My -favorite- part of this build is how it uses the metagame to its advantage. Protoss players are so completeyl used to the idea that they can just sit back and be passive and build up a deathball that they won't attack even if it's obvious, from the replay, they'd win the game. In several of your replays I felt the protoss had a big enough army to possibly win the game, but none of them wanted to take the risk. They always want to mass up their deathball which is unkillable. This means they'll play passive letting you also macro up your superior unit composition. This works remarkably well with the metagame in its current state.
Endgame unit composition. The first time I saw your army tear through a deathball I was utterly shocked. I watched it again to figure out what is happening and it's actually quite genius. The counter to mass lings is being tightly packed, but sadly if you do this, the lings hold you place, and the banelings just wipe everything. The counter to banelings to be spread out, but if you do this, the insanely badass zerglings just wipe everything. It's amazing synergy.
Also a good tip here is that zerglings are VERY mineral efficient but very larva inefficient, so making an early macro hatch, or a second macro hatch if you get a gold third, is a great insight. That's not expensive, since the lings are so cost effective, but it greatly helps deal with the larva issues.
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This is a very well written guide. The author has very interesting transitions that I think are very viable.
I've recently been trying ling/infestor play myself, although I haven't gone as in-depth as aXa. aXa, just wondering what you think about infestor usage - you say 3 infestors is enough. In my games I've made anywhere from 6-12 infestors and used neural parasite and fungal growth, but it seems if you neural parasite too many of the collosi then they just become un-parasited 12 seconds later and proceed to destroy your ling based army. So I'm definitely considering trying fewer infestors as you suggest, and using the gas on banelings instead. Seems that the banelings would work very effectively with this combination -> harrassment with baneling drops and DPS on death balls once you can destroy force fields using collosus.
This is a great guide and I think people should try it out before criticizing it! The 9 pool part is really up to the player and not really a core part of the build. It's just what aXa does. This strategy could easily be used off of any zerg opening.
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I dont know why everyone is making this so complicated, sure it is undisputable that the 9-pool puts you behind economically, but the reason why it is still a strong strat at this point in time is due to the current ZvP metagame.
This build (both the early pool ling pressure and the ling/bling/infestor/ultra) exploits the passive forcefield heavy deathball style that protoss have become so comfortable with, and it can easily hold any kind of early game all in they may try to do if you have decent scouting at all. That is why so many master level protoss are probably having trouble with it, because it pushes them out of their comfort zone. (and being a super dynamic, responsive player is definitely not a requirement to get into masters for a non-zerg player)
Now while you may think like a robot and assume that because this strategy does put you at an economic disadvantage that is a bad build, concerning the 9-pool opener or whatever. But you have to understand that builds like this are REQUIRED in order for the metagame to shift. Yes eventually protoss players as a whole will become better in their responses, and at that point you probably wont be able to get the damage you need out of the super early pool, but the whole point is that this kind of thinking is taking what protoss players are comfortable with and forcing them to adapt their thinking.
Another example of this is the +1 30 ling or so timing attack at 6:15-7:00 minutes to deny P's expo, which when ppl first started doing it it seemed like pretty much a hard counter to 3 gate sentry expand, but as protoss players learned how to micro better against it and get the proper number of sentries and zealots out in time, it was not nearly as effective. Even though that attack overall isnt as effective anymore, its still one more thing that good protoss players will have to wonder whether or not you are doing.
TLDR : this build is GREAT in the current metagame both the early pool and mid-late unit comp, which is evidenced by the sheer number of horrible responses by Protoss even at the masters level, and just because a build is not as numerically economical as another doesnt mean that it isnt going to force the protoss from now on to think about it in the back of his head, maybe even causing them to make changes to the way that they previously played.
Edit: Another small point I had about the actual build is think it would be better every time to only build 1 drone at 11 and 4 lings instead of 6. This will slightly reduce the amount of damage you need to do, and i think 4 is a great number because as he stated it is the max number of lings that can hit a walled-off building at once
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how would this do if you built a zealot before cyber and then went 5 gate zealots?
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I am trying to transition into a much more aggressive Zerg, and I think this is the build I will be praccing for ZvP from now on. I'm kinda sick of the stigma that is attached to Zerg 'MACRO OR DIE'. It's time to put the hurting back onto the opponent.
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Great post, I also think the new ling bling style vs protoss is the way to go. Normally I include drops later on, but I've never thought about opening 9 pool. Will have to give it a try sometime. But have you considered your reaction to a 2 gate? He can block with a pylon and make more zealots and attack your base, during the time you need to drone. And you won't have an expansion up for the crawlers, and your lings are pretty slow too. What happens then?
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On April 13 2011 08:20 aXa wrote:
About Backwater, the natural is so horrible i don't even consider playing on it.
Rudiment, what do you mean "wonderfully written" ? I'm not a native and i feel everytime i have to write that my english is poor, and i can't find a beauty in my word as i can in french. Do you mean it is clear and understandable?
It is well explained. Not too complicated. Good guide, overall.
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Your english in excellent, much better then my french :p. Interesting take on the zvp matchup. Early pool opening have all been shunned and discounted as cheese to the point of obscurity, but many players still use them to great effect and the potential of them has definitely not been explored.
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Against 2 gate zealot, you can hold quite easily with queen and zergling. Of course, you'll prefer to make drone, but you have to stay alive and holding the 2 gate zealot will not put the protoss in a good situation either. The thing is, its not a problem in this build to drone up later than you usually do, as long as you establish map control. Then he won't move out and you are able to drone quickly, because this build with macro hatch gives you a lot of larvae. Check the unit tab in the replay i posted: Sometimes i'm behind in drone in the early game, but at the end i always have more than 100.
About infestor, 3 is enough for mid game, 6 is a max in late game. Infestor are really fragile (don't forget than colossi have the same range as a neural parasite spell) and they are not the damage dealer or even the deal breaker. Full upgrade crackling are, as long as you have baneling to soften the zealot (they are a threat when well upgraded) Infestor allow you to control the battle better to lock down unit for fex seconds, lessen the dps while mindcontrol the colossi (or stepping on forfield^^)
So are ultralisk: They certainly are not the damage dealer in this unit composition. They are mainly here to step on forcefield and take some hit. But in battle, you got to be lucky if they hit more than 3 time: The zergling swarm will not allow them to reach the protoss unit efficiently. I think in one of my replay, we see in the final battle that my ultra are doing near from nothing.
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On April 13 2011 22:17 aXa wrote:
So are ultralisk: They certainly are not the damage dealer in this unit composition. They are mainly here to step on forcefield and take some hit. But in battle, you got to be lucky if they hit more than 3 time: The zergling swarm will not allow them to reach the protoss unit efficiently. I think in one of my replay, we see in the final battle that my ultra are doing near from nothing.
The bolded point cannot be emphasized enough, IMO. If you can't stomp the forcefields, even a small number of colossus will be able to rip the lings and banelings to shreds before they are able to do any damage at all.
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Hey aXa , I want to thank you for the great write up. I tried to test the build last night by my brain was so locked into the mindset of 14p/14g that I acutally struggeled not following that.
I think it's great to see some new thinking in the way higher level players deal with protoss because right the ZvP seem to greatly favour Protoss. (I am not going into a balance discussion here) And the reason for that is that even the elite level players seem to be locked in how to try to fight protoss. And even though a 9-pool might be a weaker start I think it's a good baseline to start with. People can try it and say: "Well, I liked to be able to apply pressure against a Protoss early, but I feel weak economy wise". Then you have a good starting point to think on how you can balance the two between each other.
The unit combo you use is nice. I have used it many times against Terran mech players and it seems to be able to often break them. I do notice that it's either Ultras or Zerglings that survive. Both are fine since you normally in his base after that battle, Do you see this start-up viable against Terrans too or is their wall-off simply too good with the shooting marine? I've tried to semi-rush before but I don't have the timing skill in my head\fingers to really know if I am doing the right thing or not
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With the updated economy info thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464), it is definitely worthwhile to reconsider the economy aspect of this build. It is obviously not a good economy build, but in the light of the economy findings from that thread, it is probably not nearly as bad as people seem to think it is here.
It seems to me that you sacrifice early economy for two things: possible early aggression and early map control. A 9pool will allow you to delay your opponent's expansion (if he is planning one) and generally causes him to reevaluate his life options, possibly overproducing defense. If he does not do any of this, then you are behind, however you may still be up in the mindgames: you have eliminated early expand builds from the equation and if you can defend a 4gate you are basically ahead. I'm definitely going to try to use this economic 9pool, because I have serious problems against protoss and one of these stems from toss always dictating the timings.
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I'm trying to find a new way to play ZvT, but for now i'm really stucked
When it comes to opening, 9 pool doesn't work as the wall is finished before the ling comes. I don't think anything but hatch first is good in ZvT. The zergling/bling/infestor/ultra compo works against meching and tank marine, but you give up on air control and you have to make a TON of spinecrawler to prevent drop. And hellion will roast zergling to some point. So don't know what yo do yet :/
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EPT
