EPT[G] 9 pool opening ZvP. Zergling/baneling/Infest - Page 5
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aXa
France748 Posts
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On April 12 2011 05:54 aXa wrote: It's not a semi all in. It's just a pressure build into a lot of eco. Commanding the game by forcing your opponent to make a forge is huge, i think you should try and see by yourslef how intuitive it feels for you after this. And this is the other part of my problem. You're relying on the protoss to MAKE A MISTAKE by building a forge. Protoss should absolutely not be building forges in response to a 9pool. Or a 6pool for that matter. And you have demonstrated quite exactly *why* it is a bad idea to do so. Every thread about "how do I defend Xpool as protoss" that I've ever seen here is full of horrible advice such as "it's impossible to hold unless you put down a forge and wall off", when the truth of the matter is that not only is it perfectly possible to hold off even a 6 pool without a forge, but that unless you went forge first, you simply cannot get cannons up fast enough without screwing yourself over for the midgame, because on seeing the forge, the zerg can switch to a heavy economic game, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, having already wasted money on static defenses that are going to be completely useless for most, if not all, of the game. It's only a matter of time before you start meeting players who respond appropriately, or protoss start getting less stupid in general against early pools. And frankly, you've probably hastened that process by writing a guide for a build that, by your own admission, relies on the protoss plopping down a forge. lol | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
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Barca
United States418 Posts
On April 11 2011 22:25 aXa wrote: On April 11 2011 22:25 aXa wrote: It may be counter-intuitive, but protoss usually thinks that you are behind because of this "rush" ^This is the bane of my existence. It's not counter intuitive to think that someone is behind after a failed rush, it's actually sound RTS thinking. However, the larvae mechanic allows you to rapidly get back into the game, almost unbelievably well. Fellow Protoss, going for a 1 base timing push after a 6-10 pool is such a stupid idea. Just pretend it never happened and expand faster since you got a forge up sooner. Beat him from there. As a Toss player, this build scares the shit out of me. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
I fail a lot more when I pretend zerg didn't fast pool and try to expo. When you do this, you give zerg a huge window to outmacro you. | ||
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
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aXa
France748 Posts
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On April 12 2011 07:21 whoopadeedoo wrote: I still like going forge in response to any pre-10 pool. I know forge responses are poo poo'ed by a lot of people, but I have had very good success countering aggressive zerg openers with a 4 +1 timing attack. A single cannon is all you need. I fail a lot more when I pretend zerg didn't fast pool and try to expo. When you do this, you give zerg a huge window to outmacro you. The replays in the OP show pretty clearly why defending with a forge is a bad idea IMO. If the zerg continues building lings past the first 6, and stays on one base, sure, you're going to be totally fine, and pretty much anything you decide to do (as long as you don't die), is going to work. But if the zerg expands and drones up, you're going to end up behind economically by a large margin, and the forge + cannon delays your counterattack long enough that he can be totally safe. I suspect that most of your counterattack successes are against players who are either one-basing, or who don't adequately prepare despite the fact that you've given them more than enough time to. I could definitely be wrong though, and I'd be interested in seeing replays if you have any handy. When seeing the forge, the zerg has two choices: try to onebase bust somehow, or to expand and drone up. Putting down the forge puts you in a very tough spot IMO, because you have to keep accurate tabs on what the zerg is doing. If he continues building lings, you need to build units so you don't die, but if he doesn't keep building lings, you have to expand ASAP. If you don't put down the forge, you can just build up units and counter, knowing that no matter what he's doing, you'll be totally in the clear. If he's going for a one base bust, you'll have a far superior economy and be able to overwhelm him, and if he's going for economy, there's a good-sized window where you can attack and just win. The most frustrating part of this thread though is that the really good parts of the guide are being drowned out simply because the OP said things like "you're not behind economically" and "you don't even need to do any damage at all with the first 6 lings" instead of "this is the economic sacrifice you make, this is the sort of damage you need to do, and this is why it's worthwhile". | ||
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qwertyindeed
151 Posts
i used to 11pool for aggression before into mass queens and drones- there is another thread on that build. i like this one better so far :D | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
The +1 counter is strong ... arguably much stronger than a standard 4 gate even if you hit 45 seconds later than a non-forge 4 gate. A 4 +1 response is so strong because zerg will not have +1 carapace having gone <10 pool. Lings (which is the bulk of what Zerg can build for defense) simply melt. | ||
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VeryAverage
United States424 Posts
 If you do a 13 gate and you don't scout early enough it can put you so behind that you are basically dead. I've had one game where I defended this pretty handily although that's because I 12 gated and got a little bit lucky (he apparently wasn't paying enough attention to his lings, he was still attacking my core as my zealot killed 2 of them) Although I still prefer facing this to that gasfree FE, this is still a pretty sound strategy assuming you do some damage with the lings. I gotta start trying it as Zerg. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
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qwertyindeed
151 Posts
On April 12 2011 08:25 lorkac wrote: Seems like it would be better with the 11pool18hatch build. in 11p18h, do u make lings between 11-18 or just drone? | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
On April 12 2011 09:06 qwertyindeed wrote: in 11p18h, do u make lings between 11-18 or just drone? you're technically supposed to respond to your opponent. If he does a 15Nexus, you damn well mass lings. Is he doing a 4gate? Mass lings at 18 until you stop the push. Essentially you build 2-4 lings to stop scouting/pylons and drone to 13-14 with a queen out before grabbing a hatch. Depending on what you scout you either drone heavy or go all in. It was figured out that 11pool18hatch gives the most larva in like the first 7ish minutes? If you drone heavy (save for 2 lings) then you're as good as a 14hatch15pool. But you have the option going aggressive early and it forces your opponent to play honest. The biggest drawback is that you won't have a spine crawler in you nat soon enough to stop a rush and your gas is very delayed (as in delayed ling speed). However, this 9pool build is okay with delayed speed so it sounds like 11pool18hatch would just be better both economically as well as aggressively(more larva) | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
help I might've made too many infestors? ultras too slow? iono he just turtled up until he has templars to feedback and my whole army went *poof* http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/162995-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulk | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
@evan: gonna check it out | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
i played another, felt bit better but hmm... I don't know, I think the economy is still rather weak. I was really afraid of some kind of push and maybe didn't drone enough again... | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On April 12 2011 05:54 aXa wrote: It's not a semi all in. It's just a pressure build into a lot of eco. Commanding the game by forcing your opponent to make a forge is huge, i think you should try and see by yourslef how intuitive it feels for you after this. Going 9 pool and 26 hatch instead of 15 pool 16 hatch is huge as well. I think I gonna compare those build to see income/drones/etc. | ||
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