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On April 12 2011 00:05 aXa wrote:4GatedelayedHere another replay of a delayed 4 gate. The protoss is not the best toss, but the force field and the 4 warp gate is well executed.
Well i didnt even watch after 7:30 minutes mark as the game was decided at that point.
1) He cancelled his pylon and got supply blocked. This delayed zealot and stopped probe production.
2) let his gateway killed.
3) let his zealot surrouned and killed with pretty much no losses on your side.
4) had to trade probes for lings while losing mining time.
5) didnt mine gas for a long time.
6) his 1st round of units was warped at 7:20 inside his base.
This is not a 4gate this is fail.
Going 9 pool and expecting an opponent to make a mistake or two (like in the games you link) is ok, this is gambling but this is ok to me. But you must understand that certain types of responses are putting you behind, and if you wright a guide you must let the others be aware of those.
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I'm a little short on replay, i'll ladder and expect a nice 4 gate.
But as i said, 9 pool doesn't put you behind economically compared to 13 pool thanks to early larva inject. It's not a risky build by that means and you are free to not do dammage with the first zergling.
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ok, so if 9 pool doesnt put you behind, why isnt everyone doing a 9 pool instead of 13 pool? or a 15 pool?
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Ok i just ran a test to solve this
After 5 minute of game, you get 19 drone out of a 9 pool with 6 zergling. You have 2 queens, 2 creep tumor down, a hatch started at 4:40 as well as zergling speed started
After 5 minute of game, you get 20 drone out of a 13 pool 13 extractor with 4 ling into expand. You have 2 queeens, 1 barely creep tumor, a hatch started at 3:45 as well as zergling speed started, but a little bit ahead.
So definelty not puting you behind, considering map control and creep spread
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Wow, nice write up.
Very nice thoughts on your build.i like the factor of the mapcontrol the most. related to a 4 gate, this build kills in my oppinion 4 gates so easily. there is simply no early proxy a protoss can build when you use your lings well.
And as a Protoss player i have the hardest time 4gating against such early ling builds.
And all the possible transitions look very smooth too.
But i think the only flaw this build has, is:
Its very hard to execute and needs lot of practice. Because this is a kinda special build where very little mistakes at some points, will screw ur whole game.
(ok in which ZvP you can do mistakes? oh ok in noone so this isnt a too risky build at all)
One single overcommitmend into forcefields or collossi, just too much infestors,or even things like building 10 ultras (sounds very nice at first) as you said.
So before some theorycrafters start hating, they should think about the fact this build just requires expirience and practice. and if you dont have it, you will probably fail against every thing the toss could do in your oppinion.
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a hatch started at 4:40
a hatch started at 3:45
also 1 minute worth of larva
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Well i don't think so. The whole point of 9 pool and the whole build in general is to make unit first to allow you window of droning that you can CONTROL. It means that you won't be taken by surprise by a push with your pants down (i.e. : without any larva left because you just spend on drone ^^)
I think it really worth a 1 min hatch earlier, considering that anyway you'll have to make more emergency zergling with a 13 pool than with a 9 pool.
So drone timing become suddenly clear, which is the hardest think as zerg to perform. And in most of the game, i have 80 to 100 drone at the end. (While producing a something like 400 to 500 zergling !) So very larva heavy.
Moreover, this build really do increase with APM when it comes to power. I wish i was fast enough to perform runby with ling all game long, along with baneling drop and nydus ! Can't wait to see a pro gamer using that strategy, i'm quite sure it will be fierce
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Thanks for this awesome read 
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On April 12 2011 01:19 gwaihir wrote:So before some theorycrafters start hating, they should think about the fact this build just requires expirience and practice. and if you dont have it, you will probably fail against every thing the toss could do in your oppinion.
The reverse of that is true as well. If you have experience and practice, it probably doesn't matter so much what you do exactly. If replays can't show the build beating player with solid execution, then the OP simply outplayed his opponents in these replays, and it doesn't matter *what* he did, he could have done standard 14g14p or hatch-first, and won likely even more convincingly.
In order to show that 9pool is viable against a 4gate, you have to actually show it defeating a well-executed 4gate. I don't think that's too much to ask, and neither should you.
I happen to know from experience heavily testing zerg openings that 9pool makes some pretty large economic sacrifices, so for the OP to claim
In fact you can do nothing but chilling at your base with your early zergling and still be well in the game
Almost borders on ridiculous. If you pool that early, and build 6 zerglings instead of 3 drones, and do absolutely nothing with those zerglings, you can still win, but only if you make fewer mistakes that your opponent. In other words, if *you play better than your opponent*, you can win after putting yourself behind. Back to experience and practice.
The ling/infestor/baneling/ultra lategame is extremely strong right now, but to be perfectly honest, it seems likely that the OP is winning on that, despite the fact that hamstringing himself early, and it's very possible that lategame would be better served by a more standard opening.
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The only thing right now, is that i don't have any replay with a good 4 warp gate. Why is that? Because i don't have save all my replay, and i had to look into "recently played" to find the one i posted. Anyway, go try the 9 pool yourself and we will see what about 4 gate.
Now, i say it again, and again: i have run test, 9 pool is NOT economically weaker than a 13 pool. The 3 early drone you didnt make are replenish by the 3 more larva you get faster with the larva inject. If it is weaker, we are talking about a ridiculous margin.
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On April 12 2011 02:08 aXa wrote:Now, i say it again, and again: i have run test, 9 pool is NOT economically weaker than a 13 pool. The 3 early drone you didnt make are replenish by the 3 more larva you get faster with the larva inject. If it is weaker, we are talking about a ridiculous margin.
You are wrong.
It is economically weaker, and whatever testing you did to show otherwise was either poorly executed, or otherwise flawed. It's not exactly rocket science to say "hey, if I waste a bunch of larva getting here, and I build 6 lings instead of drones, I just might be behind".
Early drones make a *much* larger difference than later drones. Making zerglings for supply 11-13 instead of drones is a pretty sizable economic penalty.
In addition, 9pooling at all wastes larvae that could have been drones. Wastes as in they're gone forever, and can never be recovered, because they simply never spawned in the first place. The faster inject helps make up for this, but that's it. In fact, watching one of your replays shows that almost 3 full larvae are wasted. Your first inject would have to be 30 seconds faster *just to make up for the lost larvae*, let alone trying to make up for drones that didn't get made, or 3 sets of zerglings.
It turns out that you're about 40 seconds faster than a standard 14g14p, but that just replaces up for the actual larvae (making up for larvae that you've already lost by 9pooling), and certainly doesn't make up for the fact that you could have had six more drones working up to that point.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and your claim (that 9pool is the best way to open into your mid and late game) is extremely extraordinary, but the evidence provided in the replays is pedestrian at best. And the fact that you continue to make ridiculous claims (that you could do nothing with the zerglings and still be totally fine against an equally skilled opponent, or that 9pool is not economically weaker than a 13pool, which is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing that's ever come from the mouth of a master-level player *ever*), isn't really helping your case.
Like others in this thread, I also seriously doubt you could hold off a well-executed 4gate *from a protoss who knows how to best respond to an early pool*. If you see a forge, they've already done it wrong, and have given you a chance to catch back up, which I freely admit you did extremely admirably, you're obviously a very good player. But if the protoss puts down a cyber or a second gateway instead of a forge, and is anywhere near your skill level, I'd be willing to place a bet that you flat out lose to a counterpush a huge percentage of the time.
In fact, once protoss players get out of this mindset that they have to have a forge to hold off an early pool, I suspect 9pooling will be quite suicidal, since it's not early enough to have a real chance at doing enough damage against somebody who responds correctly, but not late enough to avoid economic damage of your own in the form of wasted larvae and early zerglings.
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This is great! Tried two matches both times he forced two cannons and one forge. First match I over dorned but second it went grate. Thanks alot!
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Skrag, seriously?
whatever test i made, it was poorly executed? And what proof do you have that 9 pool is economically far weaker than 13 pool 13 gaz? Did you run any test? You don't seems to have any evidence of your point, you're just making statement.
I tested both build and compared replay. 20 drone against 19. More creep, more larva. Delayed speed. That's all. can't you figure out that early larva inject means more drone, so it does catch up compare to a 13 pool? I played numerous games with this strat, i made sure i was not saying foolishness, and here you come saying me without the shadow of a proof that i am "ridiculous" ?
Ladder is ladder, i'm a master player and i played master protoss: they are near my level.
I managed to do well both economically and army wise with this opening relentlessly. For now, i lost only twice with this strat. One time overcommiting with ultralisk, the other one because i was annoyed by a stupid bee. Maybe you should more believe in practice than theory. You should try by yourself and you'll see how counterpush are not scary at all. Even more, i would see it is game ending for protoss because they have no way to recover after they lost the 4 warp gate. Don't you think that a 2 hatch with queen, producing zergling soon to be +1, and maybe baneling, are not enough to hold a 4 warp gate? lIet me tell you, if that can't hold, nothing can and then 4 warp gate is truly imba.
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Skrag is right. The subject of economy of zerg openings has been beat up to death on this forum, and you'd better just beleive me: your 9 pool is much more economically poorer than standard zerg openings. The best "standard" economic zerg opening with early pool is 11 overpool with as little lings as possible. This can be a nice guide, dont kill it with arguing disproved ideas.
And one more point. If the protoss reacts well to your opening you will have very little map control. In fact once he has 2 zealots you will have none. Mapcontrol in early zvp is ensured by getting early ling speed or making mass units.
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IMO people are making way too big a deal of the 9 pool opening, the real powerhouse is the ling/bling/infestor with a pre-200 transition into ultra. A fresh unit comp in a time that many zergs are having a terrible time with ZvP and where most of them are also using roach/hydra/corrupter. It is so powerful late gate that you can engage the protoss army with equal or less supply and come out far ahead in supply after the battle, something that just doesn't happen normally with roach/hydra/corrupter.
The nice thing is, you can open with 9 pool or you can use any economic opener you want, and you can handle 4gate however you want, you don't REALLY commit to this comp until after 4gate timing has passed.
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This seems fairly potent. Can't wait to try it out on ladder! :D
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On April 12 2011 03:06 aXa wrote:
Skrag, seriously?
whatever test i made, it was poorly executed? And what proof do you have that 9 pool is economically far weaker than 13 pool 13 gaz? Did you run any test? You don't seems to have any evidence of your point, you're just making statement. Yes, seriously. Have you not seen the 2-3 threads that are specifically analyzing the economy of various Zerg openings, in which they run controlled experiments rather than just trying it in one replay? 9pool is simply not as good as economically as any of the standard Zerg openings, and it's been proven beyond a doubt.
That said, your mid/late-game transition is very strong and I like your thinking there. This could be a really good guide if you put less of an emphasis on your 9p opening and more on the late-game composition, regardless of the opening one chooses.
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Great post aXa, very detailed well thought out and well written. Maybe I'll try this on ladder tonight ^^
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As a Protoss player I think this is a great opener, but not for every game! In PvZ I am basically given the early part of the game without a fight, and things like this throw me off my build order a little. Definitely a build worth practicing for a BO3 or somethin
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EPT
