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[G] 9 pool opening ZvP. Zergling/baneling/Infest - Page 11

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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IzieBoy
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States865 Posts
May 18 2011 10:59 GMT
#201
lol neato... i've seen some of your replays before for some reason lol

this guide is the best... lol in your replays i've seen previously, i had thought you did a ten pool with 6 zerglings...so it's a 9 pool awesome stuff man

i'll check the replays in closer detail later (i fast fwded at x8 for most)
Let's Do This! Leeeeeeeeeeeeeroy Jenkins!
Theldiot
Profile Joined August 2010
United States21 Posts
May 18 2011 18:55 GMT
#202
I like the core idea in this post, but there is a superior way of executing it.

What is the point of doing 9 pool as opposed to 10 pool? There doesn't seem to be an important timing window that makes the earlier zerglings worth it.

Besides, I have found a way to eek out 1/2 larva out of the regular 10 pool with an extractor trick. A 10 pool ET (built at 1:12) would yield 2 more drones at the cost of delaying 6 zerglings by ~8 seconds. Worth it? - i think not!

10 Pool ET Build:
10 pool, drone, OV, Extractor trick-drone, drone; 6 zerglings (3rd larva spawns about 1 second after SP finishes); Queen.

At this point you can do exactly what aXa suggests, except you will be ahead by 2 drones. Personally, I prefer building a hatchery at 18/18 (before OV) and then power drones while the 6 zerglings deny all scouting and keep protoss to 1 base.

I have done thorough economic testing of the 10 pool ET build (See replays in the link). Just a taste: 10 pool ET is (only) 100 minerals behind 14 pool at 5:00, but gets 3 larva for it.

aXa, please explain what crucial advantage the 9 pool gives you when compared to 10 pool. Additionally, I would like to invite you to try out the 10 pool ET build - i think it would fit your play-style rather well.
Madkipz
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Norway1643 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-18 19:36:55
May 18 2011 19:36 GMT
#203
aXa, please explain what crucial advantage the 9 pool gives you when compared to 10 pool.
If i am not totally mistaken he mentions that the seconds you shave off gets you to their ramp before first zealot is out assuming they do a 12 gate.
"Mudkip"
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
May 18 2011 22:00 GMT
#204
Right, 9 pool allow you to go inside his base, or force a building wall, because the zealot is not in time. A 10 pool is just a waste because there is no way your zergling can come in.

I just played against a 2 gate vs my 9 pool, and i managed to win quite easily btw. Are your guys interested by the replay?
Melange
Profile Joined April 2011
United States39 Posts
May 18 2011 22:58 GMT
#205
Hey aXa I have a question about this. A lot of protosses seem to be going templar against me lately, and this creates a huge problem vs ling/bling/infestor. Psi storm decimate my army and make the toss ball extremely cost efficient no matter what position i engage in since storm has such a high dps esp vs this composition. I was wondering how you deal with high templar/psi storm? I feel like even if i have the econ advantage, i simply cant kill enough of the toss ball during the engagement so that my reinforcement lings can have any significant impact. Btw thanks for the great guide! It's really helped me a lot.
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
May 18 2011 23:18 GMT
#206
It is mainly a micro matter. Psi storm shouldnt be an huge deal, as only perfect place storm will be able to really hurt your zergling force.
Here are all the tips i know to deal with storm:

-Bane drop. Losing bane to a storm can really be messy, drop solve the issue (BTW, templar are kinda slow and have the sad tendency to pack, so you can aim them with bane drop)

-Attacking from different side. I try to keep my army separate i 2 or 3 group and attack from front, behind an sides

-Avoiding fight, force the use of psi storm. The protoss will short be out of energy, and can't quite replenish their army with HT since KA has been removed. Even if your first wave of zergling die, you should overcome protoss army with the huge influx of zergling, remember that zergling are expandable (keeping high larvae production is key)

-NP a templar and feedback the others. For PGM only :D

-If you realize that you can't be a certain opponent because he uses HT too well, just switch to roaches (be sure there is no colossi any more) With burrow and burrow movement, you'll be fine.
Melange
Profile Joined April 2011
United States39 Posts
May 18 2011 23:27 GMT
#207
Ah alright, I was thinking about tech switching to roaches late-game if it became too much of a problem. But your tips are great and I'll be sure to try them out next time. Thanks for your help!
Xanbatou
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States805 Posts
May 20 2011 20:51 GMT
#208
aXa, I have been trying your build a lot as of late, and unfortunately, I don't think it's for me. I just do not have the skill to use this composition effectively. I've lost a lot of games to force fields and death balls that I did not engage properly and did not micro well against.

Instead, I do your opening followed by a transition into roaches once my natural is being saturated. Then I get infestors, and then once I get close to max, I get banelings. I feel like this works better for me because it's much less fragile.
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
May 20 2011 22:58 GMT
#209
Going roach bling is quite good, easier to perform which is not to despite, but less powerful as a setback.
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
May 20 2011 23:09 GMT
#210
just read the OP

I don't like how he speaks like the 9pool will always do some nice damage. It's simply not true, I mean even his own replays he says 'very little' or 'no' damage in a couple of the games.

12gate->chrono zealot->core the zealot pops out just in time on most maps, map & spawn dependent. If he makes 13 gate the lings will get in if the wall isn't sealed. However as one poster suggested, an excellent response is to build a pylon to stall for the zealot, bring 3-5 probes to meet the zealot as it spawns, cancel the pylon, move out to chase away the pesky zerglings. The swarm of probes prevents easy runby the moment you cancel pylon, and you can leave 1 probe on 'hold' in the wall gap to block runby after that. It takes a few seconds for 1 ling to kill that probe, plenty of time for your zealot + probes to eliminate the threat.
Allred
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
May 20 2011 23:24 GMT
#211
can you mention how you have faired against archons with this build? i am only a diamond player and when i see zergling banelings i have tried going for zealot archons on 2 bases and then trying to get collosi off of 3 base or voidrays depending on the map. and then possibly slowly adding stalkers instead of zealots as they tend to absorb banelings better and with good blink micro they can help stop bane ling drops quite effectively and since you already have high templar to deal with the infestors, archons also do really well against ultras and zerglings but you are a much higher player than me and so just wanted your oppinion. for me dealing with a roach tech switch is the harest to deal with (hence voids for the roaches and Templar and storm to deal with infestors and hydras.
An expert is a man who tells you a simple thing in a confused way in such a fashion as to make you think the confusion is your own fault. ~William Castle
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-20 23:34:03
May 20 2011 23:33 GMT
#212
When i see DT or Archon, i immediatly drop a hydra den and start to produce them. I use it to snipe archon, and then go back for my regular army compo. Later in the game, i use NP mainly.

Archon are definitely better than colossi against this strat that's why i have to switch hydra a bit.
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
May 20 2011 23:48 GMT
#213
On May 21 2011 08:33 aXa wrote:
When i see DT or Archon, i immediatly drop a hydra den and start to produce them. I use it to snipe archon, and then go back for my regular army compo. Later in the game, i use NP mainly.

Archon are definitely better than colossi against this strat that's why i have to switch hydra a bit.


Sounds reasonable


Protoss players - bank 600-900 gas, make 2-3 archons as soon as archives completes, and attaaaaaaaaaaaaacccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkk! Don't allow him time to respond!
Flavalanche
Profile Joined May 2010
United States164 Posts
May 21 2011 02:42 GMT
#214
aXa, you're my savior.

ZvP was my worst matchup before this, now it's arguably my best.

<3
Sup.
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
May 21 2011 13:58 GMT
#215
Thanks, it's very gratifying to read comment like this
Theldiot
Profile Joined August 2010
United States21 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-22 16:29:03
May 22 2011 15:58 GMT
#216
On May 19 2011 07:00 aXa wrote:
Right, 9 pool allow you to go inside his base, or force a building wall, because the zealot is not in time. A 10 pool is just a waste because there is no way your zergling can come in.


A 10 pool is just as likely to 'force' protoss to build a wall. (Or do you really expect the protoss to differentiate between a 9 pool and a 10 pool, which are 6 seconds apart?!)
Also, if the opponent plays "standard," zerglings can get in (but won't be able to finish the pylon before zealot is done).
Just look at your own replays and imagine that your zerglings run up enemy ramp 6 seconds later and you have 2 extra drones mining - because that is what 10 pool ET will do. In 6 seconds i highly doubt that you'll be able to make enough damage to be worth 2 drones. Besides, in some of your replays you were not able to do much damage anyway.

I've looked at your 9 pool ZvZ thread as well, and again saw no justification for going 9 pool as opposed to 10 pool.

Then i found this:

On May 18 2011 02:14 aXa wrote:
I wanted to say: Against protoss, the main point is not 9 pool, nor infestor, nor baneling. It is upgraded zergling.


That's really what I'm getting out of these 2 threads: an effective follow-up after early 6 zerglings. In this sense it is extremely useful to me. However, I prefer having 2 extra drones to speeding up the progression by ~6 seconds.
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-22 16:44:34
May 22 2011 16:44 GMT
#217
I'll explain slowly once again: 6 second later, in ZvZ in ZvP, is too late. 99% of the time, your 10 pool will be useless. Zealot will spawn in time with a standard build, (so he doesn't need to wall off or to change anything in his build) And zergling as well in ZvZ. There is no half-measure, or you go 9 pool and have a decent chance to make damage, or you go standard opening because you'll have more drone than 10 pool anyway. The economical version of 9 pool is not 10 pool, but to get only 2 zergling and do an extractor trick to pull out an extra drone.
friendo
Profile Joined December 2010
46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-23 15:15:59
May 23 2011 15:10 GMT
#218
I'm seeing this opening alot, and it is really killing me on anything later than a 12 gate - zealot. Any suggestions from zerg or protoss? Do I have to abandon 13/14 gates?

Edit to add: I mean as a standard opener, should I always delay my probe boost so I can get the 12 gate? Or are 13/14 gates safe and I just haven't been able to play it right?
Flavalanche
Profile Joined May 2010
United States164 Posts
May 23 2011 15:44 GMT
#219
On May 21 2011 08:33 aXa wrote:
When i see DT or Archon, i immediatly drop a hydra den and start to produce them. I use it to snipe archon, and then go back for my regular army compo. Later in the game, i use NP mainly.

Archon are definitely better than colossi against this strat that's why i have to switch hydra a bit.


In my matches I've found transitioning to broods (after hydras) is much better than ultras if toss builds archons, since FF just limits protoss due to the range of the broods, then if toss blinks out to kill the broods, you easily take out his stalkers with your hydra ling.
Sup.
Philymaniz
Profile Joined November 2010
United States177 Posts
May 23 2011 15:55 GMT
#220
Really nice, I'll try it later
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