EPT[G] 9 pool opening ZvP. Zergling/baneling/Infest - Page 9
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aXa
France748 Posts
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oddsprout
53 Posts
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dani`
Netherlands2402 Posts
By the way, I notice you consistently use 'gaz', but it's just 'gas' (you asked to be corrected)  | ||
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chipman
United States139 Posts
On April 15 2011 04:42 Treemonkeys wrote: No, it's not easier than zerg is making it out to be. Do you realize that because of FF, what your suggesting requires a big investment from zerg? You want to pressure toss, attack his economy, trade armies or be aggressive at all, he either has to fail at FF and walling off or you have to invest in nydus, drops, or mutas. "just go kill him" is rarely an option in ZvP. I played random all of last season and I never thought playing zerg vs protoss was any harder than any other matchup. It doesn't matter what race you are, if you let an opponent get into a situation where you are weak and he is strong I think it's quite obvious you're going to lose. And while you say it is rarely ever an option, there are points when a zerg can just kill a protoss. How the game leads up to the point may vary a lot depending on both players styles. If there weren't times zerg would never take games off protoss. I think a lot of the zerg player's loss rates vs toss is just from making careless mistakes by getting wasted by a wave of dts, massing one or two units randomly period and hoping the protoss doesn't make the cost efficient counters, and just not understand protoss build orders enough to punish protoss and get or stay ahead or at least on a level playing field. If you think for some reason people who play the race you play are just better at the game and that's why they win, I can't help but feel that's a rather shallow way of approaching what the game is about. Instead of complaining about forcefields, why not just figure out when and how many sentries protoss will have depending on their opener, and then adjust to that. Drops are expensive to get, sure, but so are sentries, and drops of banelings nullify sentries. so.... maybe this is a good idea? Not only that but this gives you ways to bypass protoss defenses by air.. again forcefields are not a factor. I never mentioned nydus, or mutas. All I said is speedlings are pretty good if used properly, and in terms of a zergling, baneling transition into infestor/ultras you can certainly put aside some gas while massing lings to get drops and just completely destroy probe lines... So basically you can just spend all your minerals on drones, queens, hatches, and lings until you need banes, and around the time of 2/2 or 2 attack maybe figure out a build order that will allow you to also get overlord speed and drops around the same time. The OP focuses around setting the pace of the game. If you can force a protoss away from his initial build order you're already doing yourself a lot of good because protoss works heavily around timings.. If you can kill a gateway and delay cyb core for a long time, or force a forge + cannon(s) in main you're already far ahead because the protoss won't be getting a)- warpgate tech and/or b)- an expansion for quite some time. Yeah there are a lot of times where attacking into a protoss in defensive mode might be suicide, so don't attack and tech and macro up. If he leaves his base counter with your lings. It'll be a probe killing holiday. If the protoss is turtling up into 3 bases, this build is really good vs that because you can easily utilize baneling drops before they reach their near max army and force an all-in and either base race or just hold out in a big battle. Forcefield doesn't stop baneling drops. Also, if they oval forcefield on the way over, just back off quickly and engage asap. Boom, wasted sentry energy. That crap aint cheap let me tell ya, especially considering all the gas that goes into upgrades, robo or templar play, not to mention stalkers aren't exactly a mineral only investment... and the fact that your third will be up long before the protosses, because guess what if he leaves his base he will die from a counter attack or a surround on his "shark mode" fake attack, and from that point he is simply skrewed so long as you know what to do to stay ahead and kill him. I suggest you watch sheth play vs protoss... he has like an 80% win rate vs protoss in grandmasters, and he does it mainly just by macroing up with roaches attacking at the the right times with correct execution. He masses mainly one unit for the majority of the game and crushes a lot of my protoss heroes. Also there are threads like this that give you tips how to exploit turtling protoss... I simply don't understand why people can't look outside the box from the perspective they think they know especially when there is so much information to be had between teamliquid, streams, tournaments etc. How can you have fun playing the game if you go into every game thinking "my race/this matchup is near impossible I can't win, this is so stupid". I get mad at myself when I lose because I realize "wow that was careless, can't believe I messed that up" or "uggggh why did I do that " or maybe I played as good as I could have and don't immediately realize what I did wrong, look at the replay and start to analyze what I could have done differently, and come to these forums for ideas or watch streams of proven pros and see how they handle things. | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
About the difficulty in the Zerg vs Protoss matchup, i think it's not unwinnable for the zerg, even when the protoss get a max army (But only with my comp). BUT i think i need far more skill/mechanics/apm to beat an opponent of the SAME level. It's pretty sad but i don't complain, because with a little bit of reflexion, we can figure out build like this making the match up easier. | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
ZvPStargateopening Pretty good replay who shows how flexible this heavy larva build is. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
Advice: Don't transition to phoenixes, the window is different for that against a 9pool that you had to defend and you don't actually have that much time to use phoenixes before they are driven out. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
In general though, the CB fast +3 rips the zergligns very hard. If a protoss is consistent with upgrades, you are always 1 behind and zergling always get 2 shotted easity T_T | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
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Hetz
196 Posts
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aXa
France748 Posts
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aXa
France748 Posts
[url blocked] And against a fast expand/ high templar tech [url blocked] | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
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aXa
France748 Posts
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MASSivezTV
United States289 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
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aXa
France748 Posts
Against the late game compo, i sincerely didn't find a correct answer as protoss. My friend FuryOfHell and myself are currently trying to find a good unit compo who don't get smashed as protoss. But here are some element who are crucial: -Constrict space with building and canons -You must upgrade faster than usual and go 3 3 in order to compensate the insane rate of zerg upgrade -High templar definitely better than colossi, even if they just feedback the infestor. | ||
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warblob004
United States198 Posts
Zerg opens 9pool with quick lings to gain map ctrl while econ-ing back home Toss holds with a wall/zealot At this moment, Zerg has momentum, but toss has better econ & more units What if toss tries to crush that momentum by pushing out immediately by using chrono on his 1st gate, and attack with 2zealots+1stalker or 1zealot+2stalker? Basically what I'm trying to say is due to the way chronoboost & warpgates work, you just can't get a simcity in time with buildings/spines, forcing you to make queens/lings/possibly banes theres no way you'll have speed in time, and if you crush the push, it means in the time that you had to econ, you made lings - while warpgate tech is close to free, so toss's warpgate tech will be out on time, except your econ will be delayed Any suggestions? Quick note - overpool lingspeed runby / 9poolspeed in BW ZvP didn't put you much behind 12hatch at all - perhaps it's different in sc2 due to mineral patch : worker ratio efficiencies though Question - I read the comments on previous pages, but don't you guys still think early game map ctrl is worth the economic hit... even if you do 0 damage? At the very least, it should force the protoss to play a little reactively...unless he 1 base all-ins Ive tried this build on ladder a few times, and I want to thank you for posting this build order Im sure it's gotten some flame for being an "aggressive opening" -as the Koreans would call it  but I definitely prefer it over 15hatch as of now | ||
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Jables42
Netherlands1 Post
I just know I'm gonna have to deal with loads of early air pressure and most of the time I'm not able to hold this of even though I see the rays/phoenix incoming and I produce extra queens and spore crawlers, Protoss just seems to snipe my spores and queens before I can get them to be effective. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On April 15 2011 04:33 AndAgain wrote: Oh really? Some guy recently started a thread saying how he regularly beats top 200 players by doing nothing but 6 pools, and has a really high success rate against protoss. Making a forge, he says, is the only possible way to stop it. He is wrong. I have done EXTENSIVE testing on this, against players significantly more skilled than me, and was able to hold off a 6pool with an extremely high success rate (over 80%, and *every single loss* was due to simple but fatal mistakes on my part that a better player simply shouldn't have made) on Steppes of War without making any modifications at all to my standard 13gate build before the lings reached my front. I did send out a scouting probe, and Steppes was used because of its very short rush distance, but I did not allow any modifications to my build until the lings got there, to simulate a failed scout on a 4 player map. And after seeing a ridiculously good, safe, and stable response by KiwiKaki to a 6pool in the very thread you're talking about, I'm confident I could defeat a 6pool something close to 100% of the time, with extremely low risk, and in fact used that defense in my very first ladder game of this season. The fact that he's beating master-level players consistently says exactly one thing: protoss players in general have not taken the time to figure out how to appropriately respond, which is exactly what I've been saying all along. | ||
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