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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On April 12 2011 04:01 Weenkus wrote: aXa thanks for the build I tryed it and it worked wonders the toss deathball was crushed easily with ling,bling,ultra infestor combo. Makes sense, blings for light FG for armored | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On April 12 2011 03:06 aXa wrote: Skrag, seriously? Yes, seriously. I *guarantee* I've done way more testing on zerg openings than you have, or I wouldn't have replied to begin with. But to be perfectly honest, although I have done an absolutely ridiculous amount of testing on zerg openings, doing comparisons that are actually valid, as opposed to your "hey look, drone counts are equal right now, that means I'm not behind economically" "testing", I shouldn't need to run any test at all. The fact that not having 6 full drones out there working will put you significantly behind economically should be painfully obvious. The earlier inject is playing catch-up, and as I've already stated, based on times from your own replay, and a quick 14g14p run of my own, it only just barely catches up larva-wise, but still loses mining time from 6 drones that weren't made (3 because they couldn't be made due to wasted larva, and 3 because they were zerglings instead of drones). I mean seriously, you're basing your test purely on drone counts at a particular point in time, without any consideration whatsoever to the income lost up to that point? Yes, your testing is flawed, and the fact it's not painfully obvious to you means that there's probably not going to be any point in continuing this discussion, because you're *so* wrong that you can't even see the possibility. and here you come saying me without the shadow of a proof that i am "ridiculous" ? Claiming a 9pool is not economically behind a 13pool is ridiculous, and I gave you all the evidence you needed in my last post. You are missing 6 early drones. The earlier inject lets you catch up in drone count, but *does not* make up for lost mining time. If you don't think that puts you significantly behind, then you shouldn't be posting early build orders that are departures from standard, because you clearly don't understand the impact of early decisions. Lets see if I can make this any more obvious than I already have. Pretend I have an ability that lets me spawn my first 20 drones right at the beginning of the game, but I can't build any more until you also hit 20. When you hit 20, are you ahead or behind? Because based on what I've seen so far, you would claim you're not behind, because the drone counts are equal, when the truth of the matter is that I'm going to be so far ahead that you will never win a single game! Ladder is ladder, i'm a master player and i played master protoss: they are near my level. I only watched one of the 4gate replays (Cheerio had already watched the other two and claimed the 4gates were very poor). The protoss put down a completely unnecessary forge, delaying his attack by at least a minute and a half. This is a very typical protoss response to an early pool, apparently even in master league play, but its WRONG. Had he put down a cybercore instead of the forge, and not wasted money on forge+cannons, the attack would have come long before you could possibly be ready for it. Show me a replay where a protoss 4gates without building a forge first, and maybe there will be more to discuss, but showing replays where players respond incorrectly is worse than not showing any replays at all IMO. I managed to do well both economically and army wise with this opening relentlessly. For now, i lost only twice with this strat. You are clearly a very good player. Because of this, you able to win with a very strong mid and late game when your opponents give you the chance to catch back up from the damage you've done to your own economy early, and in the one replay I watched, you severely outplayed your opponent. But you don't need a good opening to do that, and still have provided exactly zero evidence to your claim that 9pool is the best opening into your mid/lategame. Instead, you've made ridiculous (yes, RIDICULOUS) claims that 9pool is not behind a 13 pool economically, when it it plainly obvious that it is, due to 6 workers that you don't build until much later in the game. As I said, you're making an extraordinary claim here, that an opening we already know sacrifices a lot of economy, is the best way (or even a SAFE way) to get to the midgame. ***EDIT**** I spent the past hour or so recording timings on early pools up to 11. Both 10 and 11 pool (before overlord) sacrifice less early, while only delaying the first attack by about 5 seconds for 10pool, and 10 seconds for 11pool. Maybe that 5-10 seconds is a deal-breaker, maybe it's not. Since you claim that you don't even need to do any damage at all, it shouldn't be, in which case both 10 pool and 11 pool are both better economically than 9 pool, even by your own screwed-up definitions. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On April 12 2011 03:46 JDub wrote: That said, your mid/late-game transition is very strong and I like your thinking there. This could be a really good guide if you put less of an emphasis on your 9p opening and more on the late-game composition, regardless of the opening one chooses. Agree 100%. This is a very strong late-game, but would almost certainly be better served by a more solid opening than a 9pool, because whether the OP wants to believe it or not, this opening is slowing things down. | ||
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Drunkasarous
United States96 Posts
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blackbrrd
Norway477 Posts
On April 12 2011 04:13 Skrag wrote: ... I spent the past hour or so recording timings on early pools up to 11. Both 10 and 11 pool (before overlord) sacrifice less early, while only delaying the first attack by about 5 seconds for 10pool, and 10 seconds for 11pool. Maybe that 5-10 seconds is a deal-breaker, maybe it's not. ... It should be noted that 6 zerglings do 216 damage vs 0 armor or 172 damage vs 1 armor in 5 seconds. 10 seconds is, in other words, about the time it takes to take down a Pylon... (Nothing to do with the economics of the build, which is your point here, but a note on your comment about a 5-10 second delay being a deal breaker) | ||
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seodoth
Netherlands315 Posts
There seems to be some debate on whether the 9pool will be economical enough to not set you back too far. I think the question we need to ask is: can the first 4 to 6 lings caus enough damage to the protoss to make the build worthwile in regards to other builds, or will it only be worthwhile when the protoss overreacts (forge cannons). Im really interested in using high upgrades lings as you main force dps and ultralisk as breakers, again props, for coming with this  @weenkus: lol awesome replay man  altho you really took the game by holding of his air attack, it was so aweome to watch you held that air harass like a boss | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On April 12 2011 05:03 blackbrrd wrote: It should be noted that 6 zerglings do 216 damage vs 0 armor or 172 damage vs 1 armor in 5 seconds. 10 seconds is, in other words, about the time it takes to take down a Pylon... (Nothing to do with the economics of the build, which is your point here, but a note on your comment about a 5-10 second delay being a deal breaker) Fair enough. 10 seconds could be a deal breaker then, especially since that 10 seconds virtually guarantees that the first zealot will be out. The OP claims you can sit with the zerglings in your base and still not be behind though, in which case 10 and 11 pool would both be strictly better than 9pool, because they make fewer sacrifices, and still get the queen out almost as fast. Early lings have to do damage. If they don't, you are behind, because you made economic sacrifices to get the lings out so fast. That's not something that needs to be proved, it's not even something worthy of discussion. It's a simple well-known fact. I will say one thing though. After watching most of the replays, if this is how well master-league players typically respond to early pools, then I like the 9pool simply because of the very likely possibility that they will respond poorly and make many mistakes. As long as you recognize that you're actually trying to force mistakes, and that it's going to stop working at some point, either as you play tougher players who respond better, or as the protoss responses improve in general. (I mostly feel that protoss tend to run around like chickens with their heads cut off when encountering an early pool. Most of them can't seem to decide whether they want to play defensively or counterattack, and therefore end up doing both, which pretty much guarantees failure, or they'll play *too* defensively, without keeping tabs on what the zerg is doing, letting the zerg pull way ahead economically). If the OP wouldn't make ridiculous claims like you're not behind if the lings do zero damage (you are), or that a 9pool isn't economically behind builds that are provably more economic, then I'd have no beef at all, and this would be an awesome guide. As it is though, I believe a more standard opening would be far more appropriate, and that the OP is doing something that he can only get away with because of his skill in the mid to late game, that mostly only works at all because of the headless chickens. | ||
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BGrael
Germany229 Posts
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On April 12 2011 05:20 seodoth wrote: I think the question we need to ask is: can the first 4 to 6 lings caus enough damage to the protoss to make the build worthwile in regards to other builds, or will it only be worthwhile when the protoss overreacts (forge cannons). The number of replays showing the early lings doing exactly zero or very little damage would seem to indicate that it's *not* worthwhile, given how big the economic penalty is. In addition to completely brushing off the sacrifices that are made when 9pooling (refusing to even acknowledge their existence!), the OP also brushes off a full minute slower hatchery as if it's nothing, but even if everything else were equal (its not, but pretend for a moment), that alone gives a significant larva disadvantage, because the hatchery would have spawned 4 larva in that minute, completely negating the 4 extra larva from having the queen 40 seconds faster, and costing another ~6 larvae from injects that cannot be done on a hatchery that isn't complete yet. In fact, if you add up all of the larva disadvantages the 9pool accrues in the early game, that might even add up to requiring a much earlier macro hatch. I do believe the replays clearly show that it's very worthwhile when the protoss over-reacts, though, and that over-reaction appears to be very common, although it's tough to really gauge that when only winning replays are posted. (I really wish it were a requirement for players posting guides to include some losses, showing the dangers of the build, how things can go wrong, and what to do about it) | ||
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nanoscorp
United States1237 Posts
On April 12 2011 02:46 Skrag wrote: ... Like others in this thread, I also seriously doubt you could hold off a well-executed 4gate *from a protoss who knows how to best respond to an early pool*. If you see a forge, they've already done it wrong, and have given you a chance to catch back up, which I freely admit you did extremely admirably, you're obviously a very good player. But if the protoss puts down a cyber or a second gateway instead of a forge, and is anywhere near your skill level, I'd be willing to place a bet that you flat out lose to a counterpush a huge percentage of the time. ... While I really appreciate the time and effort aXa put into his strategy and post, I think Skrag is right here. However, I think there's one part of the economic analysis that might have been overlooked: later gas. The 9 pool -> 6 slowlings puts your opponent on the back foot, allowing just a little bit of breathing room to get that queen and drone up a bit more before throwing drones into an extractor. If you've managed to secure map dominance by killing the outside probe and locking down the protoss ramp, the immediate threat of a 4 gate is lessened. It feels like a very fine line for the protoss to walk: proper build order, while making sure the front is secure, and pushing out with a probe + escort safely in order to apply good early pressure. At the highest level of play, I'm afraid P will be able to manage it, but good news for those of us in diamond up to mid? masters: a lot of Protoss players aren't that good. I really like the fact that an order like this throws most P players off their standard build. I just won twice in a row against a higher rated guy, because after the 6 lings showed up, he started playing terribly. My execution wasn't ideal, but I'm used to constant adjustments based on scouting and resources, not a set build up to specific timing pushes. Dealing with an *improvised* "forge -> cannon into 3 warpgate + stargate" push was a LOT easier than handling one that has been fine-tuned by pro players and memorized. | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
Are you sure it's worth doing 9 pool just to force forge and a single cannon? For me it looks like toss is going to be in a better spot after this your semi all-in. | ||
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Gecko
United States519 Posts
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aXa
France748 Posts
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askTeivospy
1525 Posts
On April 12 2011 05:46 aXa wrote: I have take a look at more number about 9 pool and 13 pool. The economical damage is too thin to not look at the advantage it gives you, even if protoss handle it perfectly. The average income for a 9 pool in the 5 minutes is 510, whereas it is 560 for a 13 pool. what are the total resources mined for both builds after 5 minutes? | ||
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aXa
France748 Posts
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
I think the real unanswered question here is: HOW much damage the 8/9 pool has to do to be even with a standard hatch first with delayed gas? My guess is around 300 min of damage is quite enough. If he did the perfect Gate/Forge (and I made 8 lings), I have to accept I essentially gave him a free forge and about 3-5 probes, though at least I can keep those lings for future uses and expand knowing a 4gate will be delayed. | ||
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BlueLagoon
France28 Posts
I think aXa manage to prove that in a large amount of games, the 9pool can give you an early advantage. Most of the Protoss are: - 4gating - or Forge Expand - or 3Gate expand against Zerg. Obviously, a MC's 4gate made, which is made close to perfection, can kick your butt any time. We agree with that. But Most of the gamers are not MC either ProGamers. Then 9pool opening is a decent aggressive opening against Master's Protoss and may be the unique aggressive one. I'm playing a 15 extract 15pool which is a safe and decent opening against Protoss. This opening leads me 95% of the time to a late game (if I'm not killed). And Late game against a Protoss is not the best Match Up for Zerg. In the 9pool case, The rate ratio w/l is very important. As I see aXa gives us a good rate then I think this build is effective against Master's. But skrag still right when he explained that this is not a perfect build. Obviously, all opening can be beaten if you chose the perfect counter. In that case, Zealot before Core is uncommon, I usually see Gate/Core/Zealot and Sentry/Stalker. | ||
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phaZe-PropheT
United States30 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481 True, there's no information on 9 pool, but the best opening is 14 hatch followed by 15 pool. The closest to the 9 pool, the 10 pool seems to be the worst economically. Wish they had some data on the 9 pool though =[ | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On April 12 2011 05:46 aXa wrote: I have take a look at more number about 9 pool and 13 pool. The economical damage is too thin to not look at the advantage it gives you, even if protoss handle it perfectly. The average income for a 9 pool in the 5 minutes is 510, whereas it is 560 for a 13 pool. For that, you gain: a better creep spread without a third queen required any time soon (remebmer that you can pull out 3 creep tumor without missing any larve inject) a better timing on upgrade: you don't need speed that quickly, so less wastage, you're also safe to any canon rush attempt, which happens a lot on ladder game sadly. My point is, this build is not that weak compare to 13 pool, it is pretty much equal. And as long as protoss are doing so bad against it, i will keep going ^^ Still taking an instantaneous measurement, without any thought whatsoever to disadvantages that were gained before the numbers equalized. And for the record, this measurement is no different than a drone count, since income is defined exactly by the current number of drones working. Having near-equal numbers (although 60 minerals per minute is hardly "insignificant") at the 5 minute mark is irrelevant. And the reason you don't miss any injects is because your HATCHERY IS LATE. A later pool can have the same creep spread by skipping an inject, and still be ahead overall, because it didn't sacrifice 6 early drones (yes, you eventually make up the difference, but if one drone starts mining at the one minute mark, another starts mining at the 3 minute mark, which drone was more valuable?). The later pool has that choice, but you do not, because your expansion hatchery is so slow that you couldn't inject it if you wanted to. Minor point: why are we talking about a 13 pool? Who actually does that? Because you're being so ridiculously stubborn about this, despite the fact that I've explained all of the reasons that 9pool is behind economically, I decided to run my own economy test to the 5 minute mark, just to explicitly show what you're not taking into consideration. Since I have no clue what exact build you're actually testing against (afaik, 14g14p is the "standard" in the matchup), I'm doing what I know. At exactly the 5 minute mark, in one of the replays you posted, you had: 17 drones, 6 lings, 3 ol, 2 queen, hatchery just barely placed (4/100) Spending 2325/200/150 Res 190/72 25/26 Ling speed not even started yet (starts at 5:14) Doing a (mostly) standard 14 gas 14 pool, building 6 lings instead of the typical 4 (you built 6 in the replay I'm comparing against, so it's only fair), just to keep the comparison as valid as possible, I had: 18 drones 6 lings 3 ol 2 queen, hatch 68/100 Spending 2425/400/150 Res 90/212 26/26 Ling speed finished #1: Your hatch is a full minute later. This is *huge* if you need fast spine crawlers at the natural for any reason. We'll ignore that part for a minute, because obviously early ling builds don't need spine crawlers nearly as often. The biggest part of this is that your hatchery is late enough to completely erase any advantage you thought you had from the earlier inject (which as I've already explained wasn't actually an advantage, but merely a way of trying to catch back up), and that's completely ignoring both the early wasted larva, and the fact that your second hatchery will be short an inject and a half simply because it won't be finished. #2: your ling speed is OVER TWO MINUTES slower. I find that somewhat relevant in a ling-heavy build, don't you? #3: Because early drones are worth more than late drones (a fact that you seem to be completely unwilling to acknowledge) you have mined a total of 350 resources. Because of this, everything about your build is far slower, everything *except* the first 6 lings, that is. If those lings don't do significant damage, YOU ARE BEHIND ECONOMICALLY. Now can we please stop arguing this ridiculously silly point? 350 resources is clearly not "insignificant", in fact, it's about 10% of the total resources mined at that point, and that gap will only widen because the 14g14p build is going to be way ahead of you in total larva count, will be able to saturate the expansion faster, will be able to get a third faster, etc. Early advantages compound on themselves, which is why rush builds have to do significant damage to be worthwhile. As somebody else stated, the question is not whether you are equivalent economically to a later pool. Clearly you are not, and frankly the fact that I had to go this far to demonstrate that fact is absolutely blowing my mind given that you're not a bronze player. The question is whether you typically do enough damage to make it worth the economic sacrifice. Unfortunately, this is a very difficult question to answer, because damage can be done two ways, either by killing stuff or by forcing your opponent to build things that slow him down, and that won't help him much later. You also have to consider the fact that he's had far more workers mining for a much larger amount of time than you. Simply "forcing" a forge+cannon probably isn't enough, unless he expands too slowly. As far as actual damage dealt, I believe there were only one or two where you did any significant amount of damage at all. Based on the replays, I would say that on average, the damage done is somewhere around a wash (I personally don't think you're doing nearly enough damage on average, but since I couldn't even begin to tell you how much is "enough", but because those lings are practically never going to do crushing-blow type damage, I think calling it a wash is perfectly fair). But I would also say that if protoss ever get out of this "omfg early pool I have to drop a forge and completely wall of RIGHT NOW" mindset, your winrate will drop significantly using this opening. | ||
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