|
On April 12 2011 12:24 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 08:26 statikg wrote:
If tyler had sprinkled a few carriers into his composition it would have been perfect IMO.
Mass zealots for blocking strike cannon range.
Mass collosus to kill everything.
Carriers to waste thor/viking damage on interceptors.
I believe thors always prioritize air targets but I am not positive about that.
Just some theorycrafting...
Maybe zealots, blink stalkers and void rays. Void rays can take thors if spread, blink stalkers to deal with the vikings, zealots to absorb thor ground damage. Might not work amazingly if terran target fires the stalkers with thors before they can take the vikings out becuase the void rays can't really attack vikings because they can just kite back.
Further theorcrafting.
IMO an even stronger composition is marines with thors rather then hellions as long as you keep them BEHIND the thors. Any composition with mass marines, FORCES either colossus or HT. HT definitely would not be a good tech path against heavy thor so that leaves colossus. By adding in vikings to the composition to help deal with collosus kiting thors this composition is just so deadly. Marines as the mineral dump rather then hellions would also totally screw over any attempt at an air composition, and it would allow for a safer bio based opening. (obviously this is kind of what I have been doing in TvP lately. This is pretty much the perfect example of how NOT to post on the strategy forums post-purge. Sprinkling in carriers? You can't just sprinkle in a unit that takes 2.5 minutes to build each and load up with interceptors. You also cant keep said interceptors alive through thor splash. He was 2 tech tiers away from carriers to begin with. Those comments are kind of an indication that you either didn't watch the games or didn't fully understand what was going on in them. Your advice would be great if Thorzain and Tyler played on fastest map ever though... A big part about this style from thorzain that helped him roll Tyler so bad with it is the simple fact that its new. Protoss need time to figure it out, which is why i've been running tests ad nauseum to find unit comps that not only work, but are accessible. Carriers aren't one of them unless you already have an advantage of some kind. That has always been the issue with them. From Tyler's position in that game with no stargate down. It takes 272 game seconds to get 1 carrier with 8 interceptors built. Thats over 4.5 minutes to get 1 6 food unit out. It wasn't an option for him and its not an option for toss in MOST games (not all). You start getting into cost as well. Name a unit that comes close besides a motherhip? The carrier is 350/250 to begin with AND you have to put another 100 in right up front to load it up AND the units enabling it to do any damage can all be killed (particularly well by stimm'd non-focus firing marines). Carriers are sick and powerful if you can surprise your opponent with them somehow or do some clever build that doesnt somehow outright die early game (1 base carrier builds were fun and effective until people got better at the game). If you can't surprise your opponent or don't already have a lead, any tech switch needed to start countering them will be faster and less expensive. Things I've learned so far from testing: -Void rays are very good against thors if well-controlled and well supported with chargelots/stalkers -Immortals even with strike cannons on the field are very good vs . this unit comp if supplemented by alot of chargelots with attack upgrades to nullify the thor armor upgrades. -Hallucinates do make a big difference but you should hallucinate chargelots and not stalkers, even if PDD concerns you. Ideally you wont want more than a couple of sentries and you should probably stop making them altogether if they are committed to mech. They really don't help other than hallucinate and guardian shield is negligible vs. mech style -Heavy chargelot/blink stalker with no sentry performs surprisingly well... but again in most games you will have some food tied up in those early sentries. Overall, no matter what method you choose to try to combat this style, you will need chargelots. Blue flame performs well against them, but not as well as you would think. Hellion DPS is very finicky and charge exploits that the same way a good surround exploits them with speedlings.
If you're saying carriers are not viable against Thorzain's composition, that's not true at all. In fact carrier is the only unit that can win a head on 200/200 battle with terran mech. Yes getting to carriers and not dying is difficult but I think it can be worked out and isn't impossible. Start with gateway/immortal, and get a relatively fast 3rd. Once you can confirm that the Terran is not doing some sort of 2 base attack (like if you see him setting up his 3rd), immediately throw up stargates and switch all out to carriers. The gateway/immortal beginning helps also because the Terran will not have made a lot of vikings yet. If the Terran attacks before your carrier fleet is ready, do everything you can to stall including countering into his expos or main with your ground army (which is pretty much disposable at this point). Note that this isn't pure theorycraft, I have done this in real games with some success. I would love more practice against this though (avilo and sadist, where are you guys :p)
Also about void rays - yes they work well against thors and are much more accessible than carriers, but I find that they're much weaker against marines and vikings than carriers are, which can be easily incorporated into the Terran army. Void rays are great early-mid game, but not so great mid-late game, which is what the real problem is when facing terran mech.
|
When I look at a game like this, to me it seems like the only/one of the only solutions is to somehow get enough air (carriers, or even voidrays,) but void rays get trashed by vikings and Carriers are really bad against armor upgrades on the thors...
I feel like Zealot/templar/voidray would be the absolutely perfect composition to use in this case given how relatively early in the game it is for carriers and the amount of bases that it's reasonable to have at that point in the game. But templars are really hard to use get to/use nowadays I feel since you can't warpin-storm. Maybe some kind of super fast forge into mass gateway play, like Adelscott does wouldn't be terrible either.
edit:
as for game 3, it looked to me like Tyler's timings were mostly messed up because he kept getting his obs sniped which cut deep into his gas.
|
On April 12 2011 12:24 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 08:26 statikg wrote:
If tyler had sprinkled a few carriers into his composition it would have been perfect IMO.
Mass zealots for blocking strike cannon range.
Mass collosus to kill everything.
Carriers to waste thor/viking damage on interceptors.
I believe thors always prioritize air targets but I am not positive about that.
Just some theorycrafting...
Maybe zealots, blink stalkers and void rays. Void rays can take thors if spread, blink stalkers to deal with the vikings, zealots to absorb thor ground damage. Might not work amazingly if terran target fires the stalkers with thors before they can take the vikings out becuase the void rays can't really attack vikings because they can just kite back.
Further theorcrafting.
IMO an even stronger composition is marines with thors rather then hellions as long as you keep them BEHIND the thors. Any composition with mass marines, FORCES either colossus or HT. HT definitely would not be a good tech path against heavy thor so that leaves colossus. By adding in vikings to the composition to help deal with collosus kiting thors this composition is just so deadly. Marines as the mineral dump rather then hellions would also totally screw over any attempt at an air composition, and it would allow for a safer bio based opening. (obviously this is kind of what I have been doing in TvP lately. This is pretty much the perfect example of how NOT to post on the strategy forums post-purge. Sprinkling in carriers? You can't just sprinkle in a unit that takes 2.5 minutes to build each and load up with interceptors. You also cant keep said interceptors alive through thor splash. He was 2 tech tiers away from carriers to begin with. Those comments are kind of an indication that you either didn't watch the games or didn't fully understand what was going on in them. Your advice would be great if Thorzain and Tyler played on fastest map ever though... A big part about this style from thorzain that helped him roll Tyler so bad with it is the simple fact that its new. Protoss need time to figure it out, which is why i've been running tests ad nauseum to find unit comps that not only work, but are accessible. Carriers aren't one of them unless you already have an advantage of some kind. That has always been the issue with them. From Tyler's position in that game with no stargate down. It takes 272 game seconds to get 1 carrier with 8 interceptors built. Thats over 4.5 minutes to get 1 6 food unit out. It wasn't an option for him and its not an option for toss in MOST games (not all). You start getting into cost as well. Name a unit that comes close besides a motherhip? The carrier is 350/250 to begin with AND you have to put another 100 in right up front to load it up AND the units enabling it to do any damage can all be killed (particularly well by stimm'd non-focus firing marines). Carriers are sick and powerful if you can surprise your opponent with them somehow or do some clever build that doesnt somehow outright die early game (1 base carrier builds were fun and effective until people got better at the game). If you can't surprise your opponent or don't already have a lead, any tech switch needed to start countering them will be faster and less expensive. Things I've learned so far from testing: -Void rays are very good against thors if well-controlled and well supported with chargelots/stalkers -Immortals even with strike cannons on the field are very good vs . this unit comp if supplemented by alot of chargelots with attack upgrades to nullify the thor armor upgrades. -Hallucinates do make a big difference but you should hallucinate chargelots and not stalkers, even if PDD concerns you. Ideally you wont want more than a couple of sentries and you should probably stop making them altogether if they are committed to mech. They really don't help other than hallucinate and guardian shield is negligible vs. mech style -Heavy chargelot/blink stalker with no sentry performs surprisingly well... but again in most games you will have some food tied up in those early sentries. Overall, no matter what method you choose to try to combat this style, you will need chargelots. Blue flame performs well against them, but not as well as you would think. Hellion DPS is very finicky and charge exploits that the same way a good surround exploits them with speedlings.
Lmao, your post is so hypocritical, you say my post is a poor contribution then you go on a rant about why its wrong followed up by some obvious and very general "test" results, proving yourself to be a total nub without a grasp on the matchup.
I wasn't suggesting that the game would of gone differently if he just went carriers, simply that if he had somehow effectively added a couple of carriers it would have been an excellent counter to thorzains composition.
Even one carrier can absorb a significant amount of thor fire with its interceptors, adding one or two carriers to your force will allow you to avoid signifcant damage from thors without the carriers suffering much from splash, carriers don't deal that much damage against upgraded mech to begin with so thats not really their purpose in such a composition. Its really not that expensive to add a fleet becon and a carrier or two when you are going to need starport units to fight this composition anyway. Microing thors when carriers are in the mix is a nightmare and they would also help shield your collosus from vikings while they kite back the ground forces.
Basically every composition that you come up with against thors would benefit from adding carriers, much like every TvP composition can benefit from adding ghosts, its just a question of if your particular choice of build has good synergy with them. If, as I suspect the standard counter to thors beomes to add void rays, then adding in a carrier or two would be easy and make your army considerably better. BC's are starting to be seen in all matchups except perhaps TvZ rather effectively, I don't see why carriers couldn't be just as easily employed where it makes sense.
|
Thor is arguably the strongest unit in the game. Letting your opponent sit back and make 10 of them might not be the best thing to do, and is something that really doesn't have a counter. Just like 10 Carriers will usually sweep anything but pure viking/corruptor. Just like 10 Ultras will counter anything but mass air.
User was warned for this post
|
Thor pretty much rapes Robo, and Tyler was relying on Robo armies. Stargate armies or even mass gateway with upgrades and blink/charge could have won it.
|
Thor did mass thor again today and just rolled over best Protoss like he was not there. I've been doing more testing and nothing even comes close to beating this build.
One game I had 20 VR (thinking how weak thor are vs armored air), 15 Zealots, 12 stalkers and 6 immortals which total cost is a ton more compared to his 8 thor, 10 SCVs, 20 rines, 6 maraders, 8 vikings, 8 BF hellions, and Raven and he rolled me without losing but 3 thor and some support units.
Anyone found anything yet?
Edit: Just played another custom vs my friend (i'm not sure how realistic it is since we both know the game plan) and it seem carriers does the trick. I basically threw down 4 star gates on three base and had about 10 phoenix and stalkers targeting his vikings and 8 carriers doing whatever it is they do and took down 10 thors, 8 vikings about 20 marines etc. I never thought carriers are worth anything since they are taken down so quick by anti air units but their mass preventing splash and thors low damage to armored air seemed to work a heck of a lot better than the unit Blizz says is counter (the immortal) who just gets wrecked by the 250mm cannons.
|
I just finished watching MC vs Thorzain so...
+ Show Spoiler +MC totally reacted wrongly in game 5. I believe he was reacting to the most common marine tank composition on that map, little did he expect thor play. He spent so much gas on phoenixes, sentries, ht tech which did nothing much in the last engagement.
I offraced toss and played marine thor once. I believe this is one of the correct ways to react. All your gas on double forge upgrades with double robo, getting chargelot upgrade. You would want more immortals than thors. Continously chrono out those upgrades, only chrono out immortals if they are showing signs to attack. You will be so gas starved that you will only warp in zealots for gateways. Use minimal stalkers or cannons to defend against banshee. Use your remaining gas for some stalkers for anti-air just before engagements. You will only need around 2 sentries just for the guardian shields. Upgraded zealots shred un-upgraded marines so easily, while any remaining immortals that are not being 250mm cannoned focus fire on thors. If possible split up your zealot army with 1 sentry each to flank the opponent. If flanked well, not even blue flame hellions can do much.
Edit: Part of the reason why this was so effective in my game was because i went for zealots stalkers pressure in the early game, then scouted he was going for mech play. I did not waste any gas in building sentries.
Side Note: I was playing this with my zerg mentality up til the point i was using chargelots like zerglings  To those passive macro zergs out there, if you like defensive reactive play, try out protoss instead. Using observers like invisible overlords to scout and negate drop plays. Protoss units are also much more cost effective. Tech switches are better due to chronoboosts and upgrades being shared across so many units. Zerg is so much more than just defending and macroing to a 300/200 push.
|
On April 24 2011 17:23 babysimba wrote:I just finished watching MC vs Thorzain so... + Show Spoiler +MC totally reacted wrongly in game 5. I believe he was reacting to the most common marine tank composition on that map, little did he expect thor play. He spent so much gas on phoenixes, sentries, ht tech which did nothing much in the last engagement. I offraced toss and played marine thor once. I believe this is one of the correct ways to react. All your gas on double forge upgrades with double robo, getting chargelot upgrade. You would want more immortals than thors. Continously chrono out those upgrades, only chrono out immortals if they are showing signs to attack. You will be so gas starved that you will only warp in zealots for gateways. Use minimal stalkers or cannons to defend against banshee. Use your remaining gas for some stalkers for anti-air just before engagements. You will only need around 2 sentries just for the guardian shields. Upgraded zealots shred un-upgraded marines so easily, while any remaining immortals that are not being 250mm cannoned focus fire on thors. If possible split up your zealot army with 1 sentry each to flank the opponent. If flanked well, not even blue flame hellions can do much. Edit: Part of the reason why this was so effective in my game was because i went for zealots stalkers pressure in the early game, then scouted he was going for mech play. I did not waste any gas in building sentries. Side Note: I was playing this with my zerg mentality up til the point i was using chargelots like zerglings To those passive macro zergs out there, if you like defensive reactive play, try out protoss instead. Using observers like invisible overlords to scout and negate drop plays. Protoss units are also much more cost effective. Tech switches are better due to chronoboosts and upgrades being shared across so many units. Zerg is so much more than just defending and macroing to a 300/200 push.
When Thorzain did it he did not have that many Marines. The only thing Sentries would be good for would be against the Marines and maybe to protect the Immortals from standard fire. Another possible problem is if there are really a ton of Immortals and Zealots then if I was the Terran player I would put my +2 armor Hellions in the front forcing you to micro with the Immortals to target the Thor while Thor can much more easily target Immortals with 250mm as they have 7 range compared to Immortal's 5.
I think part of the strength of the build is having a limited time frame to get what you need to counter it and not much of anything else. Mass producing Immortals kinda locks you into that tech path as they are slow to make and hard to replace.
I can just imagine the stuff I would go with after taking my third. Taking a third could open up bio + mech play by getting attack ups on bio to get some Marine or Marauder support in there. Since the mech units only need armor ups the bio could focus on attack ups. The transition to bio could punish the lack of early Sentries as any new Sentries will be low on energy.
The other danger is that if you have mostly Immortal and Zealot then BF Hellions can hit and run to kill off large parts of your army before the main engagement even occurs. A stack of a dozen BF Hellions can wipe out large numbers of Zealots in a single strike and then retreat to some SCV near the Thor for repairs.
|
Hop off of Thorzain's dick.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
I know it's fairly ridiculous, but would a mothership vortex be useful? Nobody ever mentions it, but as long as we're talking carriers anyways, a mothership is on the table.
|
Hey guys, I've been using this build quite a bit lately. Personally I think Protoss can win the first battle (when +2 armour for thor finishes) with standard 2/3 gate robo mixes by forcing the Terran to throw down the PDD and then running away and engaging elsewhere. Also, don't make very many sentries, and get attack upgrades. After that, get Carriers, seriously. Not even joking. Get Carriers and I'll get Battlecruisers and we both will win.
|
can u put video links of the matches as well? It be easier to understand
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
