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I think the build was right, but I also believe Tyler's response doesn't answer the question of whether it can kill a protoss lategame or not. Even Jinro has stopped believing in mech TvP.
The thing is, Tyler didn't play it right, I'd like to see this build perform against an immortal/chargelot/blink stalker build, I've seen this crush mech so many times it's ridiculous. Why this happens:
-Mech has a hard time denying protoss expansions
-With said expansions, protoss can make an absurd amount of gateways.
-With those gateways, and cosidering zealots are "free", protoss can make overwhelming numbers of zealots much faster than hellions. Eventually, enough zealots won't care about hellions, you just target thors.
-Once zealots charge, you blink in with stalkers, and A-move.
-You target fire thors with immortals
Using this method, with appropriate upgrades, thors cant even start shooting immortals, they'll die before that. You need as many immortals as the enemy has thors. If you want to transition into something, you go HTs, then hellions and supporting marines just die. Also, if you go VRs, you can make your opponent overcommit to vikings, and die to a superior ground force with too many warpgates reinforcing.
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I really enjoy reading these, thanks.
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On April 10 2011 13:00 Riskr wrote:
The Armor be4 weapons upgrade should be explained from a "pros - Theorycrafter" pov.
The reason why this is good should be very obvious IMO.
If you use very expensive and big units you lose a huge chunk every time one of them dies. Thus keeping them alive is very important and since Thors are so huge the opponent will have trouble focus firing them with a whole lot of his units. As long as you keep a few of your big units alive while the army of your opponent dies you will come out ahead. Defensive upgrades let the fight continue longer, but since
In this case the Protoss army wasnt really ideal to battle the masses of Thors, because "a few Colossi" are expensive but suck at killing Thors and get annihilated easily with the 250 mm strike cannons. The same is true for Immortals and the only chance would be a LOT of Stalkers and a few Zealots (units for which it doesn't make sense to use the strike cannon). Phoenix and Void Rays are a waste of resources as well because they dont work well with "magic box".
Thor damage: 30*2 = 60 damage per double attack
Stalker hp + shields = 160 -> three hits from a Thor (damage potential of 180, so Protoss armor wont help against Thors) kill a Stalker no matter which offensive / defensive upgrades both have
Zealot hp + shields = 150 -> three shots again
Thor hp / armor: 400 / 1
Stalker damage: 14 damage against armored Thor ->
31 hits from a Stalker to kill a Thor without any upgrade difference
34 hits with 1 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Stalker upgrades
37 hits with 2 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Stalker upgrades
40 hits with 3 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Stalker upgrades
Zealot damage: 8*2 = 16 damage ->
27 hits from a Zealot to kill a Thor without any upgrade difference
29 hits with 1 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Zealot upgrades
31 hits with 2 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Zealot upgrades
34 hits with 3 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Zealot upgrades
The key is the difference in upgrades which results in a major increase of Thor survivability and if you can mix in some repairs it could be even better. If the Protoss enemy doesnt have enough Stalkers you can even save some injured Thors with Medivac micro like White-Ra used to outmaneuver Forcefields ... just pull an injured Thor back to some repair SCVs who are waiting safely behind the firing line.
tl;dr: Weapon upgrades dont do anything against Stalkers and Zealots, but an upgrade advantage in armor does help a lot. Armor upgrades for Protoss only help the gateway units against bio (Marines).
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Sweden164 Posts
On April 11 2011 01:30 Rabiator wrote:
Zealot damage: 8*2 = 16 damage ->
27 hits from a Zealot to kill a Thor without any upgrade difference
29 hits with 1 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Zealot upgrades
31 hits with 2 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Zealot upgrades
34 hits with 3 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Zealot upgrades
You can't count it as 8*2 - armor = damage. You must count it as (8-armor)*2 = damage. So armor upgrades are even better against zealots than what you described.
29
34
40
50.
If the toss goes zealot heavy and without attack upgrades, Thor's health is effectively 552 if I upgraded +2 armor as I did vs Tyler.
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Mass blik stalkers with fast double forge actualy completly rapes the thor build flat, mb you can get away with it on xel naga cause its easy to push/defend the gold and defend the main. But on bigger maps or with a different layout its completly not viable. You can also just get 1-2 carrires to divert damage from the thors since they take ages to kill and thor priotise air over ground.
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On April 11 2011 01:41 Thorzain wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 01:30 Rabiator wrote:
Zealot damage: 8*2 = 16 damage ->
27 hits from a Zealot to kill a Thor without any upgrade difference
29 hits with 1 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Zealot upgrades
31 hits with 2 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Zealot upgrades
34 hits with 3 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Zealot upgrades
You can't count it as 8*2 - armor = damage. You must count it as (8-armor)*2 = damage. So armor upgrades are even better against zealots than what you described. 29 34 40 50. If the toss goes zealot heavy and without attack upgrades, Thor's health is effectively 552 if I upgraded +2 armor as I did vs Tyler.
I know the odds are low you'll answer this but I had three big questions hat I can't figure out the answer to:
1. Were the styles/builds/unit compositions pre determined for you by the map or were they reactive to what Tyler was doing? (the reactive element in game one is obvious due to seeing the viking scout and the immediate reaction of a reactor on the starport but in the other two games it was very difficult to tell without a replay to see your vision)
2. Does your style in game one lose very often to warpgate attacks (despite the high bunker count you get)?
3. How is protoss supposed to deal with the banshee tech switch later one/what do you find that it loses to?
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Great write-up as always confusedcrib. Don't listen to the haters. Even if it was a subpar write-up (which it isn't) if all you managed to do was get Thorzain involved in the discussion it's a good thread.
As for the games themselves, Tyler's play seems to have lacked heart lately. I don't know if he's on tilt or what's going on, but the Chilltoss just hasn't been the same. Here's hoping he can bounce back in the NASL. Not much to say about his performance except that G1 it seemed obvious Thorzain had his style pegged, G2 was a well-meaning attack that just didn't cut it, and G3 seemed to be a poorly executed build.
Thorzain on the other hand, continues to impress me. Really methodical biomech play that destroys Fruitdealer, and now three separate builds that dismantle Tyler in a different way every time. Few people (read: Goody) can make Mech look so good in TvP. I think I've found my new favorite Terran player! If anybody can take down MC in this tournament, it's Thorzain.
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On April 11 2011 01:41 Thorzain wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 01:30 Rabiator wrote:
Zealot damage: 8*2 = 16 damage ->
27 hits from a Zealot to kill a Thor without any upgrade difference
29 hits with 1 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Zealot upgrades
31 hits with 2 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Zealot upgrades
34 hits with 3 more armor for the Thor compared to the offensive Zealot upgrades
You can't count it as 8*2 - armor = damage. You must count it as (8-armor)*2 = damage. So armor upgrades are even better against zealots than what you described. 29 34 40 50. If the toss goes zealot heavy and without attack upgrades, Thor's health is effectively 552 if I upgraded +2 armor as I did vs Tyler.
Thanks for posting here, its always great to see pro analysis here in the strategy section. =)
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@ThorZaIN
how does your build on Xelnaga fare vs Mass voidrays? I imagine you have to make some adjustments when you see voidrays being pumped, to my knowledge voidrays were the counter to mech in PvT even before the voidray vs massive buff (totally rapes thors, and mech has quite poor antiair in sc2 as is). If so, what changes do you make?
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On April 11 2011 02:58 Nomadic wrote:
@ThorZaIN
how does your build on Xelnaga fare vs Mass voidrays? I imagine you have to make some adjustments when you see voidrays being pumped, to my knowledge voidrays were the counter to mech in PvT even before the voidray vs massive buff (totally rapes thors, and mech has quite poor antiair in sc2 as is). If so, what changes do you make?
He said that reactored starport Vikings were his plan to kill "Colossus/air", so I think that answers your question. Phoenix/Voidray seems mediocre vs Mech/Vikings, as although blob vs blob you might win (depending on a lot of things), but the BFHellions running about you will have a really tough time defending mineral lines.
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On April 11 2011 03:36 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 02:58 Nomadic wrote:
@ThorZaIN
how does your build on Xelnaga fare vs Mass voidrays? I imagine you have to make some adjustments when you see voidrays being pumped, to my knowledge voidrays were the counter to mech in PvT even before the voidray vs massive buff (totally rapes thors, and mech has quite poor antiair in sc2 as is). If so, what changes do you make? He said that reactored starport Vikings were his plan to kill "Colossus/air", so I think that answers your question. Phoenix/Voidray seems mediocre vs Mech/Vikings, as although blob vs blob you might win (depending on a lot of things), but the BFHellions running about you will have a really tough time defending mineral lines.
Yes he mentioned in his first post that the high Viking count was to deal with Colossi + any air transitions. Also remember that Tyler's upgrade-heavy PvT style is Gateway based...Thorzain probably knew that if Tyler tried a tech switch to air that they would be poorly upgraded/not in enough numbers.
If he had gone VR/Phoenix with air upgrades plus Stalkers on the ground...who knows. It's all theorycrafting at this point. Regardless, it's obvious some brainstorming is required to stop this style from Thorzain, it would be interested if he posted what gives him trouble with it.
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Will these replays be released? Where will they be posted? Really liked ThorZaINs builds, want to look into them more (hard to get exact details from VODs).
Thank you!
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I'm not sure there is a counter to 10 Thor backed by vikings and hellions other than you deserve to lose letting them get that far. Sorta like Zerg deserve to lose letting toss get to col/VR death ball. You guys know how much that stuff costs? How long it takes to build? How screwed they are if you eliminate halfway their attempts to build it?
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On April 11 2011 05:03 gavinashun wrote:
Will these replays be released? Where will they be posted? Really liked ThorZaINs builds, want to look into them more (hard to get exact details from VODs).
Thank you!
I know that the players are not allowed to release the replays but I'm really hoping that TL will release them eventually. I also would really like them to discover more of Thorzain's decision making and how much of what he did was reactive to Tyler's play.
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Has anyone figured out how to stop this armor based mass thor strat? As in, what do you do when hes got them already or when you cant punish him early for whatever reason and you know before long he will have 6-7 +. I keep running into this and im even losing to lower league players in customs (im mid masters) turtling up and coming out with a critical mass of thor. I think they kill all the gateway units in 3 attacks if im not mistaken and armor upgrades dont help you survive longer vs. this. Immortals and colossus haven't worked because of strike cannons. My last go I used double forge with all chargelots and blink but the thors just demolish everything.
Anyone have any luck vs. this build? VRs are great against thor but only in small numbers once theres enough thor the splash damage seems to cut through VRs and its near impossible to get them to spread early enough.
I'll work on getting a replay of me getting destroyed by it next time I do.
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I think 2 base carrier would be a pretty effective response. I saw Huk go 2base carrier against a similar build on Xelnaga maybe a month or so ago on ladder. You just have to defend blue flame hellion harass without losing too many probes, which Huk did.
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Carriers would get raped by vikings. I am trying to get my buddy to do a custom with me let him build up and I'm going to try mass VR with 10-15 hallucinated ones to tank damage. I might try the mass blink too. But wth mass blink he never would have gotten to 10 thors;) Helps if you know before hand what they are doing tho...
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Game one is still stuck in my head today.. The Thors strike-cannoning the immortals just made my day...
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On April 11 2011 11:39 tdt wrote:
Carriers would get raped by vikings. I am trying to get my buddy to do a custom with me let him build up and I'm going to try mass VR with 10-15 hallucinated ones to tank damage. I might try the mass blink too. But wth mass blink he never would have gotten to 10 thors;) Helps if you know before hand what they are doing tho...
Carriers are not truly countered by vikings if you can pump a decent number of carriers (though marines crush them easily.). They also screw over the targetting AI of the thors completely, but I don't know if the number of thors actually makes them decent against interceptors.
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I ran about 2 hours of tests with my friend in a unit test map and the trick to it is to cut back on the sentries in favor of high dps units. If you have sentries hallucinating chargelots is effective. Basically you just need alot of units so tylers going colossus was a mistake as it was the least amount of units he could have made. Floating 6 void rays over top the army was good... basically you just need to either have the thors hit your VRs or have them using strike cannons on your immorals so your zealots and stalkers can do damage. Out of all the tests we ran the best results were, many hallucinates zealots + gateways, All chargelot/blinksalker-no sentry, zealot, immortal (like 6 immortals), zealot/stalker/voidray (6+ VRs). THe worst results were a balanced gateway mix with no hallucinates or just using your sentries for guardian shield had almost no effect on yuor survivability... its just wasted dps.
TLDR if theyre going thors either abuse hallucinate to screw up thor targetting or cut back the sentry in favor of powerhouse units. Strike cannons can nullify immortals but they are getting pounded by zealots when they do.
Also, re: carriers... interceptors get killed so fast by thor splash its not even funny. On top of that, the thor build focuses on getting them a ton of army. Its really tough to get any sort of upgrade edge as such.
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EPT
