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On June 01 2011 06:20 Numy wrote:Hey Cecil absolutely amazing work. I've read this through a few times and been actively trying to incorporate many of the principles(mentality is such a big but hard thing to change. I'm just wondering if I could ask a few questions not too sure how busy you are  . Anyway here goes: 1) Boxing - I'm a small handed man(:D) currently using kinzu and I believe finger grip or something very close. I noticed in your boxing section you state that the optimal way to do it is top left to bottom right but I've always naturally done it either alternating ways or the other way. I'm just wondering if this is something I should actively try to go about changing or if it doesn't matter. I'm mainly wondering about fatigue and if it might effect that. 2) Hotkeying - The other question is that of hotkeying. I used to main zerg for awhile and I got around mid masters before I decided to change to Terran. I've been training them up for the last month or so and got around with a hotkey setup that had 5 as all production and tabbing between it but recently I've started to notice errors with the method and wondering if i should change it around. I have 1-4 as army and want to try get that working solidly but many matches I play I hardly hotkey army so I'm not sure if I should sacrifice those hotkeys and shift things down in order to compensate for added production hotkeys or I should focus on using better army hotkeys and shift everything up to accomodate. Something like 5 rax 6 cc 7 fact 8 starport. I'm sorry if you covered this before, I haven't read the whole thread(So tired right now , exams :<) but if you have I'll find it eventually. Thanks
No I'm definitely not too busy to answer questions. But I do appreciate concise ones like yours! 
1) I personally think it's important to not box from bottom to top, either from right to left or left to right. I think boxing top right to bottom left is okay, but top left to bottom right is optimal. So yes you should actively change it, however you have to remember there is also a priority list to enforce if you want to improve optimally. For example your macro is more important to nail down than nit-picky things like boxing directions. So if you feel that optimizing your boxing is the next best step to improve your play, then by all means do it.
2) I'm not sure what you're asking here. I suggest trying out 5-8 for your army, as hitting 5a6a7a8a with pinky on the a is really easy, and that leaves the closer hotkeys for production.
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I've never thought of that. I'll give it a shot. Basically I had all production on one hotkey, well all but my CCs. At first I thought that would work nicely but realized not so well. Thanks a lot. I'll look into that. The boxing question was a bit tied into marine micro splitting, felt like I was doing it poorly and maybe because my boxing wasn't that great.
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Hmm I suggest watching kawaiirice's stream when he goes online. He has some great split-second marine splitting.
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Wow really well done and an amazing read.. I really appreciate the time and effort that went into writing that. Sc2 community ftw
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Wonderful guide, really helped me out when I started. Almost made this account alone for saying that :D Great work!
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On June 01 2011 06:35 CecilSunkure wrote:
2) I'm not sure what you're asking here. I suggest trying out 5-8 for your army, as hitting 5a6a7a8a with pinky on the a is really easy, and that leaves the closer hotkeys for production.
You could as well use space for attack move. This allows to hit attack move with the thumb, so you can use army controlgroups almost anywhere on the keyboard, e.g. 1 2 3 or D F G or X C V (or what ever you like).
Your handposition will be way more relaxed with this and you gain a free finger to speed up the hotkey usage.
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On May 26 2011 01:11 kuro466 wrote:
2) I play zerg, and I found it much easier to learn micro before macro, by starting with shorter simpler games through early aggression builds. I'm currently no pro (only platinum 1v1), but back when I was silver/gold I read similar guides suggesting learning macro first. I found this method incredibly frustrating as macro zerg play needs to effectively master too many skills at once...
a) macro zerg players have to have decent micro during engagements to have a chance to win them. a-move a zerg army into a similar sized T/P army, even with reasonable composition, and zerg will much more frequently lose.
That's true for any race in any battle. Since I'm Protoss I'm inclined to say that it's even more important to have good force fields. But the thing is, is that at your level having crisp macro leaves you with so much more stuff that a lack of micro doesn't even matter, and you just roll over bad players that are focusing on trying to control their units to a degree that they think is effective. I see this come up all the time. A higher ranked player will tell a lower ranked player to just learn to get the units out they need, and the lower level player disagrees.
You can't disagree with the rank disparity though.
On May 26 2011 01:11 kuro466 wrote:
b) macro zerg players ... SNIP ... defensive strength is realitively larger from 6-8 minutes. As a result, I can see how a focus on macro-style first may be easier with those races.
You are way over thinking this. I can offrace as Zerg and play at higher level than you are simply because I have the understanding of how important it is to get out the most units as possible with the best possible economy. There isn't really any question as to whether or not a zerg player should learn to macro first or micro first or anything else. You learn you macro first, that's it. You have to be able to execute a build properly before you can do anything else at a high level.
Yes, Zerg is more reactive of a race, by design. This doesn't mean Zerg is any harder or easier to play than the other races, and it doesn't mean you shouldn't learn your macro first. It simply means that build orders for Zerg players are going to be structured slightly different compared to the other races. See my original post in section 4.01 for clarification on this.
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Wait cecil... I'm all for the pdf, but why cant i just view the guide in the OP anymore? anyway to have both? I don't have adobe on my phone lol
either way... hands down the reason I made it to diamond w/ abysmal unit control ... thanks dood
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On June 03 2011 23:27 stokes17 wrote:Wait cecil... I'm all for the pdf, but why cant i just view the guide in the OP anymore? anyway to have both? I don't have adobe on my phone lol either way... hands down the reason I made it to diamond w/ abysmal unit control ... thanks dood
Sorry about that. I ended up updating the PDF and didn't think it really necessary to update the whole thing twice (different formatting for each article).
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Really thx for the article it's a great source of knowledge what's important and what to do to improve SC2 play - know now that it will take a few years to become a good player from the point I am currently but doesn't matter - just started to practice my builds and also keybord and mouse learning - btw I recommend "mouse move test map" (custom map in easy and normal version) for everyone who want to practice mouse accuracy;)
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Thankyou. As a very average silver player, this will definitely help.
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I think I've become an "over hotkey-er". I hotkey every single unit the first time I select it and i never have to box anything. I've noticed the pros are boxing like crazy so I'm wondering if over hotkeying is a bad thing and it's slowing me down. I mean I have like 150 apm so it's not like I'm siting there staring at my keyboard looking for the numbers or anything but I don't know if it's necessary... thoughts? Is it OK to have unhotkeyed units? If I have units in 3 different spots on the map, I've got them on three hotkeys, even if it takes me all day to move each one individually.
I also NEVER micro at all (I play Z) except when there are mutas or tanks involved since you can lose EVERYTHING in the blink of an eye. If I have money and larva I pretty much spend it instantly 99% of the time but to do this I have to almost completely disregard macro and sometimes good scouting. Is this a mistake (low master league)
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Hello,
Very interesting and great guide, I'm sure it will help many, including me.
I got a question regarding hotkeys, mostly wondering if you have any hotkeys that aren't standard?
Thanks!
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On June 11 2011 06:52 Neo.NEt wrote:
I think I've become an "over hotkey-er". I hotkey every single unit the first time I select it and i never have to box anything. I've noticed the pros are boxing like crazy so I'm wondering if over hotkeying is a bad thing and it's slowing me down. I mean I have like 150 apm so it's not like I'm siting there staring at my keyboard looking for the numbers or anything but I don't know if it's necessary... thoughts? Is it OK to have unhotkeyed units? If I have units in 3 different spots on the map, I've got them on three hotkeys, even if it takes me all day to move each one individually.
I also NEVER micro at all (I play Z) except when there are mutas or tanks involved since you can lose EVERYTHING in the blink of an eye. If I have money and larva I pretty much spend it instantly 99% of the time but to do this I have to almost completely disregard macro and sometimes good scouting. Is this a mistake (low master league)
I don't really think it's a mistake, unless you're binding something in a control group that you never use.
Basically, you put something into a control group if you're going to use it often. If it's not something often used, you can just use the minimap to move it around when needed.
On June 13 2011 20:43 eYeball wrote:
Hello,
Very interesting and great guide, I'm sure it will help many, including me.
I got a question regarding hotkeys, mostly wondering if you have any hotkeys that aren't standard?
Thanks!
Uhm I don't think so. When I offrace as Terran I put mule on S and SCV on E. I put screen position on f1-f4. Other than that, no.
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Apparently my file was removed for a ToS violation at mediafire. I didn't copyright my works or anything, I just simply asked people no to post it anywhere without my permission, so I can't be in violation of anything. Supposedly I'm doing something that the ESA states I should not, and am claiming rights to property by probably Blizzard, but I didn't really claim anything did I? If anyone has any advice on how to write my document properly so this bullshit doesn't occur, I'd appreciate it.
I'll work on getting it back up onto mediafire asap. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Edit: For now I'd appreciate it if someone could upload my released PDF so I can download it, as the one on mediafire was I believe my last copy. You can just put the link to it in a response in this topic.
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You could try asking if someone can post a torrent of it. That way you don't have to bother with hosting sites.
It also looks like there's a copy of your guide here
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Better yet I should ask TL if they can host it. BRB pming someone.
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On June 15 2011 04:04 CecilSunkure wrote:
Better yet I should ask TL if they can host it. BRB pming someone.
There's a copy here. I don't know how up to date it is.
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Alright some nice guy pmed me a copy. So I'm just waiting for a response from TL about hosting here.
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EPT
