EPT[D] What ever happened to Banshee + Thor in TvP? - Page 2
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manicshock
Canada741 Posts
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:13 iNfeRnaL wrote: I do think the main problem about the Banshee's lategame potential is that you can easily shift-feedback all of them (ya you need more than one observer so you have vision for long enought to actually do it) and once that is done... well why would I care if I have no observer anymore if you're not cloaked anymore?  if he has templar tech, as silly as this sounds, wouldn't it be better to waste your energy before going agressive? either by cloaking and wasting it or emp? Because banshees do alot of damage and if the energy is a liability couldn't you negate it and not do the ob snipe method? | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 14:52 Yamulo wrote: if he has templar tech, as silly as this sounds, wouldn't it be better to waste your energy before going agressive? either by cloaking and wasting it or emp? Because banshees do alot of damage and if the energy is a liability couldn't you negate it and not do the ob snipe method? That's not stupid at all, you're totally right about that.  But one of the main point to make it work possibly IS cloaking them IMO I do believe that anything with a high enough Colo/Immortal count to beat the Thors supported by either Stalkers or Void's (which you have to keep a little bit behind until the Thors are shooting at ground or have died.) will obliterate this. Again, EMP joining the fray makes ANY metal composition 10x as deadly as before because its main counter the Immortal suddenly because useless as fuck, but really pure Thors + some EMP's would probably do a lot better than less Thors with Banshee's. Edit: hah, I've been saying this above so often today because many people did exactly that but in fact this time I was the one who should've read YOUR post more carefully, sorry about that. | ||
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Farehnheit
Canada42 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:31 iNfeRnaL wrote: Did you read the OP happyft? It's great that you have success by adding Thors to your bio army, but nobody really gives a fuck about that in a topic about >>>BANSHEE<<< and thors in TvP because - correct my if I'm wrong but, where are the banshee's in your buildorder? ^^ @Fahrenheit: Means the OP is aware that it isn't possible as an opening. And I think you also are not really aware of what a LATE GAME TRANSISTION means. "If you don't expo then you'll be behind economically unless your banshees do a lot of damage." The OP clearly states that he does not think this can be used as an opening, hence you do not rely on banshee's to do damage because they're not even in your god damn build order. What he is talking about was switching to it at around the 15 minute mark after you opened up bio. Really guys, reading the OP carefully helps A LOT. I gave a reason why it might be hard to transition into Thor + Banshee from bio in the first half of my reply. So what are you complaining about? That I gave extra information about opening with Thor + Banshee as well? | ||
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Aui_2000
Canada435 Posts
thors do over 2x the dps to ground units than to air even with the light bonus. And magic boxing phoenix is even easier than any other air unit because of their ability to attack while moving (less chance of them bunching up in an attempt to auto attack a unit slightly out of range). If the thors are shooting the phoenix they aren't really doing very much. Also @infernal, immortals are surprisingly good even after emp due to their high health:shield ratio. | ||
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eluv
United States1251 Posts
Finally I'll add on a whole lot of tech lab starports as I take a third, then even more as I take a 4th. One thing I feel like siege+blue-flame has over Thors is amazing cost-efficiency - as a defensive mix - which is my primary concern if I'm aiming for that super powerful starport max. Late game blue-flame hellions also make a pretty nice mineral dump because of their speed, especially if the game goes very long and you can afford to go back and pick up a mech upgrade or 2 once air 3/3 is done. The other thing I'd add to the discussion is how amazing ravens are as a part of this max. Even if you never get any of the raven upgrades, PDD is still a seriously amazing spell to support your BC's and banshees. | ||
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
Phoenix arent really a problem because thors/marine destroys them, and if you see voidray then you can just build a few vikings since you already have the starports. Opening thors will make sure that the P cannot get away with an expo before the 9min mark. If he tries to expo early i'll just march in with 2-3 thors, marines, and 5-10 SCVs and win right there. Once you secured your expo just go mass banshee with 3-4 starports. As your minerals keep getting higher just make more and more barracks, and late game (25min+) you'll have 6+ barracks and you can transition into a bio with banshee/thor support. I've found that thor/banshee doesnt spend your minerals that well, so that is the reason for going heavy bio later. | ||
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Dismantlethethroat
114 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:24 Farehnheit wrote: I don't know why we've been seeing less of Thor + Banshee and seeing more Marauder + Viking but my guess is that people are finding it hard to transition into it. If you transition into it from bio then you've got a lot of wasted barracks and infantry upgrades. If you tech straight to Thor + Banshee with an expo you'll be vulnerable to an early attack. If you don't expo then you'll be behind economically unless your banshees do a lot of damage. If somebody can find a way to tech straight to Thor + Banshee while also expo-ing at a reasonable time then they are in a very strong position. The appeal of opening with marauders is that you can expo off of 1 rax safely. Expo-ing off of 1 fact 1 port is not so safe. In late game it does not matter if you wasted those barracks. They work well only in early-midgame, but not late game, which is why you need mech. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 16:50 Farehnheit wrote: I gave a reason why it might be hard to transition into Thor + Banshee from bio in the first half of my reply. So what are you complaining about? That I gave extra information about opening with Thor + Banshee as well? Your first reply: If somebody can find a way to tech straight to Thor + Banshee while also expo-ing at a reasonable time then they are in a very strong position. The appeal of opening with marauders is that you can expo off of 1 rax safely. Expo-ing off of 1 fact 1 port is not so safe. This is your information? That if you get lucky and the opponent is dumb enough to let you go there, you're in a good position? OR that you think it is not safe to open with it - which would not actually be extra information because the OP listed it in his god damn posting. Or do you even mean your so called suggestions regarding the "transistion" [whereas you understood but as a late game transition it seems to had a alot of potential back then as "how to get Thors after opening with Cloak banshee or after opening 1 rax fe" which is NOT a god damn late game transistion but a follow up to your actual opening. Do you see anything about "getting Thors right after opening up with Banshee's / Marauders" in the OP?You STILL do fail to read. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:13 iNfeRnaL wrote: I do think the main problem about the Banshee's lategame potential is that you can easily shift-feedback all of them (ya you need more than one observer so you have vision for long enought to actually do it) and once that is done... well why would I care if I have no observer anymore if you're not cloaked anymore? That is not even feasible late game. How much Templar energy would you use to feedback that many Banshees late game? It is much better to just Storm them instead | ||
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Farehnheit
Canada42 Posts
If you understand (or maybe you don't) what extra information means, then why do you think I am posing opening builds as late game transitions? The information I gave about opening with Thor + Banshee with or without an expo doesn't apply to the late game transition that the OP is talking about. It's almost as if that info was *gasp* extra. | ||
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BrahCJ
Australia659 Posts
That as well as the +bonus to massive from the Void Rays. At a guess. I'm a terrible player. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 17:44 Farehnheit wrote: @infernal If you understand (or maybe you don't) what unneccesary information means, then why do you think I am posing opening builds as late game transitions? The information I gave about opening with Thor + Banshee with or without an expo doesn't apply to the late game transition that the OP is talking about. It's almost as if that info was *gasp* unneccesary. Fixed for you, because that is what your information was regarding this discussion and/or the OP's question. | ||
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Moja
United States313 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:37 iNfeRnaL wrote: *facepalm* Did you really just imply that you would try to counter T H O R S with Psi-Storm? Good luck. No I think you would try to counter B A N S H E E S with Psi-Storm... -_-' | ||
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murkk
Canada154 Posts
I have seen a couple streams the this week showing heavy banshee plus thor on the new maps, once they hit about 4 bases. It was not effective but the games were pretty awesome to watch. The unit that seemed to counter it straight up was Phoenix added to a standard colossus / stalker / zealot ball. | ||
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matrius
100 Posts
On March 21 2011 17:22 Deadlyfish wrote: I go Thor/banshee/marine every TvP and i have about 90% win ratio with it. Phoenix arent really a problem because thors/marine destroys them, and if you see voidray then you can just build a few vikings since you already have the starports. Opening thors will make sure that the P cannot get away with an expo before the 9min mark. If he tries to expo early i'll just march in with 2-3 thors, marines, and 5-10 SCVs and win right there. Once you secured your expo just go mass banshee with 3-4 starports. As your minerals keep getting higher just make more and more barracks, and late game (25min+) you'll have 6+ barracks and you can transition into a bio with banshee/thor support. I've found that thor/banshee doesnt spend your minerals that well, so that is the reason for going heavy bio later. This. Anyone Diamond or less should try it, and Master as well if they haven't tried it yet, it works. Also see: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=197990 As well, 2 pronged attacks with Banshees work well. | ||
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Riot Janook
United States112 Posts
I open with a reactor on the barracks after the first marine, which delays the first Thor but makes sure you die to no early pushes. Second refinery when factory is halfway done. No helion, no bunker, wall off with 3 depots. I cut marines before starting my 2nd Thor so I can expand on a reasonable time frame. There is a natural point where you won't be able to afford units + supply depot, I chose that as my expansion timing to stay efficient. Never stop making Thors. Once that expo is up, throw down a bunker in case he's doing a 2 base allin. Take all your gas (cut marines if you need minerals for Thors / Banshees / Infrastructure). Add 2 starports, start pumping banshee. I don't add any barracks until my next expansion has started, just produce out of the one reactored. I also like to add in 3-4 BCs once I'm on 3 base, which completely nullify any phoenix because of their high base armor, and also allows you to keep liquidating your entire gas income without having to add any production. So my 2 and 3 base setup is 1 factory, 2 starports. Banshees on two base, BCs on three base. Extra gas goes to armory upgrades (Weapons on air, armor on Thors). Extra minerals go to barracks. Marines are throwawy units however, useless without any upgrades for them. I cut marines as needed to get faster gas. The composition is incredibly strong and very immobile. I rarely lose direct engagements (even to collosus balls). Instead I usually lose to base trades / snipes. Oh, and if you see them getting Templar, get ghosts and EMP all your banshees and BCs before engaging. If you can EMP Templar, that's great and all, but it's more important to feedback-proof yourself. -3.9k Master Terran | ||
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Moja
United States313 Posts
On March 22 2011 00:00 Janook wrote: Marine/Thor/Banshee is still my standard TvP. Has been for months. I don't use the cloak gimmick, though. The composition is strong, I prefer to spend the extra money on units. I open with a reactor on the barracks after the first marine, which delays the first Thor but makes sure you die to no early pushes. Second refinery when factory is halfway done. No helion, no bunker, wall off with 3 depots. I cut marines before starting my 2nd Thor so I can expand on a reasonable time frame. There is a natural point where you won't be able to afford units + supply depot, I chose that as my expansion timing to stay efficient. Never stop making Thors. Once that expo is up, throw down a bunker in case he's doing a 2 base allin. Take all your gas (cut marines if you need minerals for Thors / Banshees / Infrastructure). Add 2 starports, start pumping banshee. I don't add any barracks until my next expansion has started, just produce out of the one reactored. I also like to add in 3-4 BCs once I'm on 3 base, which completely nullify any phoenix because of their high base armor, and also allows you to keep liquidating your entire gas income without having to add any production. So my 2 and 3 base setup is 1 factory, 2 starports. Banshees on two base, BCs on three base. Extra gas goes to armory upgrades (Weapons on air, armor on Thors). Extra minerals go to barracks. Marines are throwawy units however, useless without any upgrades for them. I cut marines as needed to get faster gas. The composition is incredibly strong and very immobile. I rarely lose direct engagements (even to collosus balls). Instead I usually lose to base trades / snipes. Oh, and if you see them getting Templar, get ghosts and EMP all your banshees and BCs before engaging. If you can EMP Templar, that's great and all, but it's more important to feedback-proof yourself. -3.9k Master Terran This is almost identical to what I've been doing. Except I don't cut units until I have 2 thors (21 marines + 1 or 2 cycles rallied to the push) , where I stop thor production and add a CC + 2 starports. I also take my second gas slightly later (right after armory). I was going to post the build as a refinement of your old one, but if you're already doing it then you get the credit ^^ I noticed the reactor opening will straight up die to fast 1 gate pressure though. Thoughts? | ||
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Ragoo
Germany2773 Posts
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