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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
I think this build starting to gain popularity around MLG dallas or around that time. Painuser vs LiquidTyler MLG Did this build die because of the void ray buff/nerf that increase the void ray abilty to be stronger in battle overall? If not, what really cause this build to fall apart? Was viking banshee better cause viking more mobile and could snipe down observers better in certain situations? | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
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happyft
United States470 Posts
I've done some analysis and I've found thor dps to be more than double bio dps due to zealots having 1 base armor + 2 armor from guardian shield. And I've found this to be true in practice ... my thor-based armies do extremely well against gateway armies since forcefields are negated, robotics armies (250cc cannon is amazing against immortal and colossus if you know how to micro and position your units well), and HT armies since storms do pitiful dps against them. The only thing I've losted to so far is voidray based armies, since they screw up the targeting priority of thors and effectively destroy your dps. | ||
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Farehnheit
Canada42 Posts
If you transition into it from bio then you've got a lot of wasted barracks and infantry upgrades. If you tech straight to Thor + Banshee with an expo you'll be vulnerable to an early attack. If you don't expo then you'll be behind economically unless your banshees do a lot of damage. If somebody can find a way to tech straight to Thor + Banshee while also expo-ing at a reasonable time then they are in a very strong position. The appeal of opening with marauders is that you can expo off of 1 rax safely. Expo-ing off of 1 fact 1 port is not so safe. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:13 iNfeRnaL wrote: I do think the main problem about the Banshee's lategame potential is that you can easily shift-feedback all of them (ya you need more than one observer so you have vision for long enought to actually do it) and once that is done... well why would I care if I have no observer anymore if you're not cloaked anymore? Hm, I guess that is a big possibility that could of killed it since toss could easily warp in a lot of HT. But considering that this is a late game transition and there will be battle with around 150+ food fight, wouldnt it be pretty hard to feed back so many banshee? Of course you can also storm them and since there is only mainly thor and banshee, we can also assume that there will be no force field necessary so you can concentrate all your APM on the feedback so it is plausible. But even if they aren't cloak, thor and uncloak banshee are still really potent. But then again, considering that this strategy did die out, i would not rule out the possibility that HT would be the main cause of it. | ||
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Moja
United States313 Posts
The problem imo was always the transition timings and HT warp-in storms. Mobility is an issue too but protoss never really exploited it. | ||
drgonzhere
United States447 Posts
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
It's great that you have success by adding Thors to your bio army, but nobody really gives a fuck about that in a topic about >>>BANSHEE<<< and thors in TvP because - correct my if I'm wrong but, where are the banshee's in your buildorder? ^^ @Fahrenheit: Obviously you couldn't go straight into this unit composition without a lot of risk but as a late game transition it seems to had a alot of potential back then. Means the OP is aware that it isn't possible as an opening. And I think you also are not really aware of what a LATE GAME TRANSISTION means. "If you don't expo then you'll be behind economically unless your banshees do a lot of damage." The OP clearly states that he does not think this can be used as an opening, hence you do not rely on banshee's to do damage because they're not even in your god damn build order. What he is talking about was switching to it at around the 15 minute mark after you opened up bio. Really guys, reading the OP carefully helps A LOT. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:27 SheaR619 wrote: Hm, I guess that is a big possibility that could of killed it since toss could easily warp in a lot of HT. But considering that this is a late game transition and there will be battle with around 150+ food fight, wouldnt it be pretty hard to feed back so many banshee? Of course you can also storm them and since there is only mainly thor and banshee, we can also assume that there will be no force field necessary so you can concentrate all your APM on the feedback so it is plausible. But even if they aren't cloak, thor and uncloak banshee are still really potent. But then again, considering that this strategy did die out, i would not rule out the possibility that HT would be the main cause of it. *F*-shift-shift-shift-shift-shift-shif-shift... even somebody with 100 apm can get it done, that's why I said you need more than one obs to do it on time, because I do think they will stop feedbacking even if you ordered them to do it when a banshee was still visible once it cloaks. I do agree with it being quite a potent combo in lategame, but really if not for the cloaks sake, wouldn't you prefer tanks a LOT over them? Because tbh, Immortal+Colo+any anti air in a reasonable enough amount will just rape through Thor+Banshee. :o On March 21 2011 13:29 Moja wrote: Imo this style will make a comeback after the amulet nerf. Maybe just heavy air though, since thors are ridiculously immobile and maps are getting bigger. But massed thors are still really strong in a heads up fight. The problem imo was always the transition timings and HT warp-in storms. Mobility is an issue too but protoss never really exploited it. *facepalm* Did you really just imply that you would try to counter T H O R S with Psi-Storm? Good luck. | ||
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
The main problem with mass banshee in late game is that they are too fragile (feedback & storm) and hard to replace. Against late game protoss, you need something that has a lot of hp (thor/bc) or very replaceable (marine/marauder). | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
 Mass thor is also sick good vs gateway/robo units. I've had a LOT of Ps try to storm my thors lmao Too bad 1 carrier > 30 thors | ||
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valheru
Australia966 Posts
The can easily decide to pump Immo HT chargelot of what they already have and the upgrades are transferable except air weapons (no-one gets them anyway), and range and blink (relatively uncommon). | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:37 iNfeRnaL wrote: *F*-shift-shift-shift-shift-shift-shif-shift... even somebody with 100 apm can get it done, that's why I said you need more than one obs to do it on time, because I do think they will stop feedbacking even if you ordered them to do it when a banshee was still visible once it cloaks. I do agree with it being quite a potent combo in lategame, but really if not for the cloaks sake, wouldn't you prefer tanks a LOT over them? Because tbh, Immortal+Colo+any anti air in a reasonable enough amount will just rape through Thor+Banshee. :o *facepalm* Did you really just imply that you would try to counter T H O R S with Psi-Storm? Good luck. Well tanks are good but charge lots immortal phoenix make them kinda iffy to use since if you are guarding your tanks perfectly then thing can fall apart really easily. Even when banshee are uncloak, they still do terrible terrible damage and there really isnt any anti air that can beat it except for phoenix and void ray and carriers just because banshee cant hit air. Stalker vs banshee is kinda eh....because banshee can kill a stalker in a 1v1 fight but i dont know if they are cost efficient or not. The thor will be able to kill phoenix since that is the obvious counter to them but the thor kill phoenix really easily. If i remember correctly though is that all you need to do is 1 scan and the thor will auto fire the observer and then banshee will wreck everything. | ||
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Elanshin
Australia216 Posts
Edit: + Show Spoiler + Check out g2 of SlayerSBoxeR v Prae.Nightend in the recent TSL3. he had 5 factories making the thors but they take way too long to come out. | ||
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:55 infinity21 wrote: I'd rather have more thors than tanks or banshees tbh. maybe thor/rine could work in late game with like 20 rax but the problem with biomech is staying ahead in upgrades... pretty much impossible to get both armour & weapon for both bio and ground mech. Not to mention you gotta start getting air ups if you want to get BCs or mass viking vs colo Ahh, make sense. That could of been be a reason why. Since +armor really messes up banshee DPS since banshee shoot 2 shots. Considering the that this is already a gas intensive build, it would be really hard to upgrade both. | ||
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spbelky
United States623 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:31 iNfeRnaL wrote: Did you read the OP happyft? It's great that you have success by adding Thors to your bio army, but nobody really gives a fuck about that in a topic about >>>BANSHEE<<< and thors in TvP because - correct my if I'm wrong but, where are the banshee's in your buildorder? ^^ @Fahrenheit: Means the OP is aware that it isn't possible as an opening. And I think you also are not really aware of what a LATE GAME TRANSISTION means. "If you don't expo then you'll be behind economically unless your banshees do a lot of damage." The OP clearly states that he does not think this can be used as an opening, hence you do not rely on banshee's to do damage because they're not even in your god damn build order. What he is talking about was switching to it at around the 15 minute mark after you opened up bio. Really guys, reading the OP carefully helps A LOT. +1iNfeRnaL, Reading comprehension is not a strong suite of a surprising portion of the TL community. Anyway, back to the original topic, I think the answer has to do partially with the maps. At first people really enjoyed abusing how small maps were, and Thors immobility wasn't really an issue. With bigger maps it's really hard to play with such an immobile army. That's just one factor though, and I think that transitioning also has a lot to do with it, and ya pretty much that a few VRs will chew your army apart =\ | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:50 SheaR619 wrote: Well tanks are good but charge lots immortal phoenix make them kinda iffy to use since if you are guarding your tanks perfectly then thing can fall apart really easily. Even when banshee are uncloak, they still do terrible terrible damage and there really isnt any anti air that can beat it except for phoenix and void ray and carriers just because banshee cant hit air. Stalker vs banshee is kinda eh....because banshee can kill a stalker in a 1v1 fight but i dont know if they are cost efficient or not. The thor will be able to kill phoenix since that is the obvious counter to them but the thor kill phoenix really easily. If i remember correctly though is that all you need to do is 1 scan and the thor will auto fire the observer and then banshee will wreck everything. You kinda answered everything on your own. Tanks are good, as you said. And as you concluded in the "against banshee" situation, thors are pretty damn good against both (edit  void rays and phoenix so ... I don't see your point here, really. Sure I can lift up 10 tanks for like 10 seconds which it takes for your thors to shoot down my Phoenix, but I don't think that's going to help a lot. If you want to see how good Zealots - charge or not - are against Thor Tank go ahead and test it in the Hard Counter-map, it's not even funny, really. About the Immortals, yea they're the main counter to tanks I know, but you ever saw what tanks do to those after they got hit by an emp? Again, its not even funny. The problem about Banshee/Thor is that your banshee's will be shooting at immortal/zealot up front and Stalkers deal the damage to what is left of the Banshee's after you feedback'ed em. And believe me, against Banshee's with half health (feedback!) stalkers are pretty damn cost effective, late game is about gas, 2 Stalkers beat 1 Banshee even at full health and cost the same amount of gas. Go figure. Even pure Thor is more cost efficient than Thor+Banshee. ^^ | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
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