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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
I think this build starting to gain popularity around MLG dallas or around that time. Painuser vs LiquidTyler MLG Did this build die because of the void ray buff/nerf that increase the void ray abilty to be stronger in battle overall? If not, what really cause this build to fall apart? Was viking banshee better cause viking more mobile and could snipe down observers better in certain situations? | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
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happyft
United States470 Posts
I've done some analysis and I've found thor dps to be more than double bio dps due to zealots having 1 base armor + 2 armor from guardian shield. And I've found this to be true in practice ... my thor-based armies do extremely well against gateway armies since forcefields are negated, robotics armies (250cc cannon is amazing against immortal and colossus if you know how to micro and position your units well), and HT armies since storms do pitiful dps against them. The only thing I've losted to so far is voidray based armies, since they screw up the targeting priority of thors and effectively destroy your dps. | ||
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Farehnheit
Canada42 Posts
If you transition into it from bio then you've got a lot of wasted barracks and infantry upgrades. If you tech straight to Thor + Banshee with an expo you'll be vulnerable to an early attack. If you don't expo then you'll be behind economically unless your banshees do a lot of damage. If somebody can find a way to tech straight to Thor + Banshee while also expo-ing at a reasonable time then they are in a very strong position. The appeal of opening with marauders is that you can expo off of 1 rax safely. Expo-ing off of 1 fact 1 port is not so safe. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:13 iNfeRnaL wrote: I do think the main problem about the Banshee's lategame potential is that you can easily shift-feedback all of them (ya you need more than one observer so you have vision for long enought to actually do it) and once that is done... well why would I care if I have no observer anymore if you're not cloaked anymore? Hm, I guess that is a big possibility that could of killed it since toss could easily warp in a lot of HT. But considering that this is a late game transition and there will be battle with around 150+ food fight, wouldnt it be pretty hard to feed back so many banshee? Of course you can also storm them and since there is only mainly thor and banshee, we can also assume that there will be no force field necessary so you can concentrate all your APM on the feedback so it is plausible. But even if they aren't cloak, thor and uncloak banshee are still really potent. But then again, considering that this strategy did die out, i would not rule out the possibility that HT would be the main cause of it. | ||
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Moja
United States313 Posts
The problem imo was always the transition timings and HT warp-in storms. Mobility is an issue too but protoss never really exploited it. | ||
drgonzhere
United States447 Posts
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
It's great that you have success by adding Thors to your bio army, but nobody really gives a fuck about that in a topic about >>>BANSHEE<<< and thors in TvP because - correct my if I'm wrong but, where are the banshee's in your buildorder? ^^ @Fahrenheit: Obviously you couldn't go straight into this unit composition without a lot of risk but as a late game transition it seems to had a alot of potential back then. Means the OP is aware that it isn't possible as an opening. And I think you also are not really aware of what a LATE GAME TRANSISTION means. "If you don't expo then you'll be behind economically unless your banshees do a lot of damage." The OP clearly states that he does not think this can be used as an opening, hence you do not rely on banshee's to do damage because they're not even in your god damn build order. What he is talking about was switching to it at around the 15 minute mark after you opened up bio. Really guys, reading the OP carefully helps A LOT. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:27 SheaR619 wrote: Hm, I guess that is a big possibility that could of killed it since toss could easily warp in a lot of HT. But considering that this is a late game transition and there will be battle with around 150+ food fight, wouldnt it be pretty hard to feed back so many banshee? Of course you can also storm them and since there is only mainly thor and banshee, we can also assume that there will be no force field necessary so you can concentrate all your APM on the feedback so it is plausible. But even if they aren't cloak, thor and uncloak banshee are still really potent. But then again, considering that this strategy did die out, i would not rule out the possibility that HT would be the main cause of it. *F*-shift-shift-shift-shift-shift-shif-shift... even somebody with 100 apm can get it done, that's why I said you need more than one obs to do it on time, because I do think they will stop feedbacking even if you ordered them to do it when a banshee was still visible once it cloaks. I do agree with it being quite a potent combo in lategame, but really if not for the cloaks sake, wouldn't you prefer tanks a LOT over them? Because tbh, Immortal+Colo+any anti air in a reasonable enough amount will just rape through Thor+Banshee. :o On March 21 2011 13:29 Moja wrote: Imo this style will make a comeback after the amulet nerf. Maybe just heavy air though, since thors are ridiculously immobile and maps are getting bigger. But massed thors are still really strong in a heads up fight. The problem imo was always the transition timings and HT warp-in storms. Mobility is an issue too but protoss never really exploited it. *facepalm* Did you really just imply that you would try to counter T H O R S with Psi-Storm? Good luck. | ||
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
The main problem with mass banshee in late game is that they are too fragile (feedback & storm) and hard to replace. Against late game protoss, you need something that has a lot of hp (thor/bc) or very replaceable (marine/marauder). | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
 Mass thor is also sick good vs gateway/robo units. I've had a LOT of Ps try to storm my thors lmao Too bad 1 carrier > 30 thors | ||
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valheru
Australia966 Posts
The can easily decide to pump Immo HT chargelot of what they already have and the upgrades are transferable except air weapons (no-one gets them anyway), and range and blink (relatively uncommon). | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:37 iNfeRnaL wrote: *F*-shift-shift-shift-shift-shift-shif-shift... even somebody with 100 apm can get it done, that's why I said you need more than one obs to do it on time, because I do think they will stop feedbacking even if you ordered them to do it when a banshee was still visible once it cloaks. I do agree with it being quite a potent combo in lategame, but really if not for the cloaks sake, wouldn't you prefer tanks a LOT over them? Because tbh, Immortal+Colo+any anti air in a reasonable enough amount will just rape through Thor+Banshee. :o *facepalm* Did you really just imply that you would try to counter T H O R S with Psi-Storm? Good luck. Well tanks are good but charge lots immortal phoenix make them kinda iffy to use since if you are guarding your tanks perfectly then thing can fall apart really easily. Even when banshee are uncloak, they still do terrible terrible damage and there really isnt any anti air that can beat it except for phoenix and void ray and carriers just because banshee cant hit air. Stalker vs banshee is kinda eh....because banshee can kill a stalker in a 1v1 fight but i dont know if they are cost efficient or not. The thor will be able to kill phoenix since that is the obvious counter to them but the thor kill phoenix really easily. If i remember correctly though is that all you need to do is 1 scan and the thor will auto fire the observer and then banshee will wreck everything. | ||
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Elanshin
Australia216 Posts
Edit: + Show Spoiler + Check out g2 of SlayerSBoxeR v Prae.Nightend in the recent TSL3. he had 5 factories making the thors but they take way too long to come out. | ||
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:55 infinity21 wrote: I'd rather have more thors than tanks or banshees tbh. maybe thor/rine could work in late game with like 20 rax but the problem with biomech is staying ahead in upgrades... pretty much impossible to get both armour & weapon for both bio and ground mech. Not to mention you gotta start getting air ups if you want to get BCs or mass viking vs colo Ahh, make sense. That could of been be a reason why. Since +armor really messes up banshee DPS since banshee shoot 2 shots. Considering the that this is already a gas intensive build, it would be really hard to upgrade both. | ||
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spbelky
United States623 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:31 iNfeRnaL wrote: Did you read the OP happyft? It's great that you have success by adding Thors to your bio army, but nobody really gives a fuck about that in a topic about >>>BANSHEE<<< and thors in TvP because - correct my if I'm wrong but, where are the banshee's in your buildorder? ^^ @Fahrenheit: Means the OP is aware that it isn't possible as an opening. And I think you also are not really aware of what a LATE GAME TRANSISTION means. "If you don't expo then you'll be behind economically unless your banshees do a lot of damage." The OP clearly states that he does not think this can be used as an opening, hence you do not rely on banshee's to do damage because they're not even in your god damn build order. What he is talking about was switching to it at around the 15 minute mark after you opened up bio. Really guys, reading the OP carefully helps A LOT. +1iNfeRnaL, Reading comprehension is not a strong suite of a surprising portion of the TL community. Anyway, back to the original topic, I think the answer has to do partially with the maps. At first people really enjoyed abusing how small maps were, and Thors immobility wasn't really an issue. With bigger maps it's really hard to play with such an immobile army. That's just one factor though, and I think that transitioning also has a lot to do with it, and ya pretty much that a few VRs will chew your army apart =\ | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:50 SheaR619 wrote: Well tanks are good but charge lots immortal phoenix make them kinda iffy to use since if you are guarding your tanks perfectly then thing can fall apart really easily. Even when banshee are uncloak, they still do terrible terrible damage and there really isnt any anti air that can beat it except for phoenix and void ray and carriers just because banshee cant hit air. Stalker vs banshee is kinda eh....because banshee can kill a stalker in a 1v1 fight but i dont know if they are cost efficient or not. The thor will be able to kill phoenix since that is the obvious counter to them but the thor kill phoenix really easily. If i remember correctly though is that all you need to do is 1 scan and the thor will auto fire the observer and then banshee will wreck everything. You kinda answered everything on your own. Tanks are good, as you said. And as you concluded in the "against banshee" situation, thors are pretty damn good against both (edit  void rays and phoenix so ... I don't see your point here, really. Sure I can lift up 10 tanks for like 10 seconds which it takes for your thors to shoot down my Phoenix, but I don't think that's going to help a lot. If you want to see how good Zealots - charge or not - are against Thor Tank go ahead and test it in the Hard Counter-map, it's not even funny, really. About the Immortals, yea they're the main counter to tanks I know, but you ever saw what tanks do to those after they got hit by an emp? Again, its not even funny. The problem about Banshee/Thor is that your banshee's will be shooting at immortal/zealot up front and Stalkers deal the damage to what is left of the Banshee's after you feedback'ed em. And believe me, against Banshee's with half health (feedback!) stalkers are pretty damn cost effective, late game is about gas, 2 Stalkers beat 1 Banshee even at full health and cost the same amount of gas. Go figure. Even pure Thor is more cost efficient than Thor+Banshee. ^^ | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
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manicshock
Canada741 Posts
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:13 iNfeRnaL wrote: I do think the main problem about the Banshee's lategame potential is that you can easily shift-feedback all of them (ya you need more than one observer so you have vision for long enought to actually do it) and once that is done... well why would I care if I have no observer anymore if you're not cloaked anymore? if he has templar tech, as silly as this sounds, wouldn't it be better to waste your energy before going agressive? either by cloaking and wasting it or emp? Because banshees do alot of damage and if the energy is a liability couldn't you negate it and not do the ob snipe method? | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 14:52 Yamulo wrote: if he has templar tech, as silly as this sounds, wouldn't it be better to waste your energy before going agressive? either by cloaking and wasting it or emp? Because banshees do alot of damage and if the energy is a liability couldn't you negate it and not do the ob snipe method? That's not stupid at all, you're totally right about that. But one of the main point to make it work possibly IS cloaking them IMO I do believe that anything with a high enough Colo/Immortal count to beat the Thors supported by either Stalkers or Void's (which you have to keep a little bit behind until the Thors are shooting at ground or have died.) will obliterate this. Again, EMP joining the fray makes ANY metal composition 10x as deadly as before because its main counter the Immortal suddenly because useless as fuck, but really pure Thors + some EMP's would probably do a lot better than less Thors with Banshee's. Edit: hah, I've been saying this above so often today because many people did exactly that but in fact this time I was the one who should've read YOUR post more carefully, sorry about that. | ||
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Farehnheit
Canada42 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:31 iNfeRnaL wrote: Did you read the OP happyft? It's great that you have success by adding Thors to your bio army, but nobody really gives a fuck about that in a topic about >>>BANSHEE<<< and thors in TvP because - correct my if I'm wrong but, where are the banshee's in your buildorder? ^^ @Fahrenheit: Means the OP is aware that it isn't possible as an opening. And I think you also are not really aware of what a LATE GAME TRANSISTION means. "If you don't expo then you'll be behind economically unless your banshees do a lot of damage." The OP clearly states that he does not think this can be used as an opening, hence you do not rely on banshee's to do damage because they're not even in your god damn build order. What he is talking about was switching to it at around the 15 minute mark after you opened up bio. Really guys, reading the OP carefully helps A LOT. I gave a reason why it might be hard to transition into Thor + Banshee from bio in the first half of my reply. So what are you complaining about? That I gave extra information about opening with Thor + Banshee as well? | ||
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Aui_2000
Canada435 Posts
thors do over 2x the dps to ground units than to air even with the light bonus. And magic boxing phoenix is even easier than any other air unit because of their ability to attack while moving (less chance of them bunching up in an attempt to auto attack a unit slightly out of range). If the thors are shooting the phoenix they aren't really doing very much. Also @infernal, immortals are surprisingly good even after emp due to their high health:shield ratio. | ||
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eluv
United States1251 Posts
Finally I'll add on a whole lot of tech lab starports as I take a third, then even more as I take a 4th. One thing I feel like siege+blue-flame has over Thors is amazing cost-efficiency - as a defensive mix - which is my primary concern if I'm aiming for that super powerful starport max. Late game blue-flame hellions also make a pretty nice mineral dump because of their speed, especially if the game goes very long and you can afford to go back and pick up a mech upgrade or 2 once air 3/3 is done. The other thing I'd add to the discussion is how amazing ravens are as a part of this max. Even if you never get any of the raven upgrades, PDD is still a seriously amazing spell to support your BC's and banshees. | ||
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
Phoenix arent really a problem because thors/marine destroys them, and if you see voidray then you can just build a few vikings since you already have the starports. Opening thors will make sure that the P cannot get away with an expo before the 9min mark. If he tries to expo early i'll just march in with 2-3 thors, marines, and 5-10 SCVs and win right there. Once you secured your expo just go mass banshee with 3-4 starports. As your minerals keep getting higher just make more and more barracks, and late game (25min+) you'll have 6+ barracks and you can transition into a bio with banshee/thor support. I've found that thor/banshee doesnt spend your minerals that well, so that is the reason for going heavy bio later. | ||
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Dismantlethethroat
114 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:24 Farehnheit wrote: I don't know why we've been seeing less of Thor + Banshee and seeing more Marauder + Viking but my guess is that people are finding it hard to transition into it. If you transition into it from bio then you've got a lot of wasted barracks and infantry upgrades. If you tech straight to Thor + Banshee with an expo you'll be vulnerable to an early attack. If you don't expo then you'll be behind economically unless your banshees do a lot of damage. If somebody can find a way to tech straight to Thor + Banshee while also expo-ing at a reasonable time then they are in a very strong position. The appeal of opening with marauders is that you can expo off of 1 rax safely. Expo-ing off of 1 fact 1 port is not so safe. In late game it does not matter if you wasted those barracks. They work well only in early-midgame, but not late game, which is why you need mech. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 16:50 Farehnheit wrote: I gave a reason why it might be hard to transition into Thor + Banshee from bio in the first half of my reply. So what are you complaining about? That I gave extra information about opening with Thor + Banshee as well? Your first reply: If somebody can find a way to tech straight to Thor + Banshee while also expo-ing at a reasonable time then they are in a very strong position. The appeal of opening with marauders is that you can expo off of 1 rax safely. Expo-ing off of 1 fact 1 port is not so safe. This is your information? That if you get lucky and the opponent is dumb enough to let you go there, you're in a good position? OR that you think it is not safe to open with it - which would not actually be extra information because the OP listed it in his god damn posting. Or do you even mean your so called suggestions regarding the "transistion" [whereas you understood but as a late game transition it seems to had a alot of potential back then as "how to get Thors after opening with Cloak banshee or after opening 1 rax fe" which is NOT a god damn late game transistion but a follow up to your actual opening. Do you see anything about "getting Thors right after opening up with Banshee's / Marauders" in the OP?You STILL do fail to read. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:13 iNfeRnaL wrote: I do think the main problem about the Banshee's lategame potential is that you can easily shift-feedback all of them (ya you need more than one observer so you have vision for long enought to actually do it) and once that is done... well why would I care if I have no observer anymore if you're not cloaked anymore? That is not even feasible late game. How much Templar energy would you use to feedback that many Banshees late game? It is much better to just Storm them instead | ||
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Farehnheit
Canada42 Posts
If you understand (or maybe you don't) what extra information means, then why do you think I am posing opening builds as late game transitions? The information I gave about opening with Thor + Banshee with or without an expo doesn't apply to the late game transition that the OP is talking about. It's almost as if that info was *gasp* extra. | ||
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BrahCJ
Australia659 Posts
That as well as the +bonus to massive from the Void Rays. At a guess. I'm a terrible player. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On March 21 2011 17:44 Farehnheit wrote: @infernal If you understand (or maybe you don't) what unneccesary information means, then why do you think I am posing opening builds as late game transitions? The information I gave about opening with Thor + Banshee with or without an expo doesn't apply to the late game transition that the OP is talking about. It's almost as if that info was *gasp* unneccesary. Fixed for you, because that is what your information was regarding this discussion and/or the OP's question. | ||
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Moja
United States313 Posts
On March 21 2011 13:37 iNfeRnaL wrote: *facepalm* Did you really just imply that you would try to counter T H O R S with Psi-Storm? Good luck. No I think you would try to counter B A N S H E E S with Psi-Storm... -_-' | ||
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murkk
Canada154 Posts
I have seen a couple streams the this week showing heavy banshee plus thor on the new maps, once they hit about 4 bases. It was not effective but the games were pretty awesome to watch. The unit that seemed to counter it straight up was Phoenix added to a standard colossus / stalker / zealot ball. | ||
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matrius
100 Posts
On March 21 2011 17:22 Deadlyfish wrote: I go Thor/banshee/marine every TvP and i have about 90% win ratio with it. Phoenix arent really a problem because thors/marine destroys them, and if you see voidray then you can just build a few vikings since you already have the starports. Opening thors will make sure that the P cannot get away with an expo before the 9min mark. If he tries to expo early i'll just march in with 2-3 thors, marines, and 5-10 SCVs and win right there. Once you secured your expo just go mass banshee with 3-4 starports. As your minerals keep getting higher just make more and more barracks, and late game (25min+) you'll have 6+ barracks and you can transition into a bio with banshee/thor support. I've found that thor/banshee doesnt spend your minerals that well, so that is the reason for going heavy bio later. This. Anyone Diamond or less should try it, and Master as well if they haven't tried it yet, it works. Also see: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=197990 As well, 2 pronged attacks with Banshees work well. | ||
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Riot Janook
United States112 Posts
I open with a reactor on the barracks after the first marine, which delays the first Thor but makes sure you die to no early pushes. Second refinery when factory is halfway done. No helion, no bunker, wall off with 3 depots. I cut marines before starting my 2nd Thor so I can expand on a reasonable time frame. There is a natural point where you won't be able to afford units + supply depot, I chose that as my expansion timing to stay efficient. Never stop making Thors. Once that expo is up, throw down a bunker in case he's doing a 2 base allin. Take all your gas (cut marines if you need minerals for Thors / Banshees / Infrastructure). Add 2 starports, start pumping banshee. I don't add any barracks until my next expansion has started, just produce out of the one reactored. I also like to add in 3-4 BCs once I'm on 3 base, which completely nullify any phoenix because of their high base armor, and also allows you to keep liquidating your entire gas income without having to add any production. So my 2 and 3 base setup is 1 factory, 2 starports. Banshees on two base, BCs on three base. Extra gas goes to armory upgrades (Weapons on air, armor on Thors). Extra minerals go to barracks. Marines are throwawy units however, useless without any upgrades for them. I cut marines as needed to get faster gas. The composition is incredibly strong and very immobile. I rarely lose direct engagements (even to collosus balls). Instead I usually lose to base trades / snipes. Oh, and if you see them getting Templar, get ghosts and EMP all your banshees and BCs before engaging. If you can EMP Templar, that's great and all, but it's more important to feedback-proof yourself. -3.9k Master Terran | ||
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Moja
United States313 Posts
On March 22 2011 00:00 Janook wrote: Marine/Thor/Banshee is still my standard TvP. Has been for months. I don't use the cloak gimmick, though. The composition is strong, I prefer to spend the extra money on units. I open with a reactor on the barracks after the first marine, which delays the first Thor but makes sure you die to no early pushes. Second refinery when factory is halfway done. No helion, no bunker, wall off with 3 depots. I cut marines before starting my 2nd Thor so I can expand on a reasonable time frame. There is a natural point where you won't be able to afford units + supply depot, I chose that as my expansion timing to stay efficient. Never stop making Thors. Once that expo is up, throw down a bunker in case he's doing a 2 base allin. Take all your gas (cut marines if you need minerals for Thors / Banshees / Infrastructure). Add 2 starports, start pumping banshee. I don't add any barracks until my next expansion has started, just produce out of the one reactored. I also like to add in 3-4 BCs once I'm on 3 base, which completely nullify any phoenix because of their high base armor, and also allows you to keep liquidating your entire gas income without having to add any production. So my 2 and 3 base setup is 1 factory, 2 starports. Banshees on two base, BCs on three base. Extra gas goes to armory upgrades (Weapons on air, armor on Thors). Extra minerals go to barracks. Marines are throwawy units however, useless without any upgrades for them. I cut marines as needed to get faster gas. The composition is incredibly strong and very immobile. I rarely lose direct engagements (even to collosus balls). Instead I usually lose to base trades / snipes. Oh, and if you see them getting Templar, get ghosts and EMP all your banshees and BCs before engaging. If you can EMP Templar, that's great and all, but it's more important to feedback-proof yourself. -3.9k Master Terran This is almost identical to what I've been doing. Except I don't cut units until I have 2 thors (21 marines + 1 or 2 cycles rallied to the push) , where I stop thor production and add a CC + 2 starports. I also take my second gas slightly later (right after armory). I was going to post the build as a refinement of your old one, but if you're already doing it then you get the credit ^^ I noticed the reactor opening will straight up die to fast 1 gate pressure though. Thoughts? | ||
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Ragoo
Germany2773 Posts
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
On March 22 2011 00:30 Ragoo wrote: I don't really see problems with feedback at all. Thor+Banshee/BC is such a lategame composition that you should be able to get a Ghost out to EMP the Banshees/BCs before the battle. And Ghosts are useful anyway cause they counter every Protoss unit. Well for banshees it's easier to just research cloak and then cloak/uncloak a few times to get rid of all energy. | ||
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Farehnheit
Canada42 Posts
On March 21 2011 18:10 iNfeRnaL wrote: Fixed for you, because that is what your extra information was regarding this discussion and/or the OP's question. Congrats, you've learned what extra means. Did you use a thesaurus? User was warned for this post | ||
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rightstuff
United States160 Posts
In regard to safe transitions, would a 1-1-1 opener with a rax and tech lab fact and port for quick siege and banshee be too gas intensive on two base? On the larger maps in ladder early siege would help with early pressure builds and the first few banshees could be used to pressure toss armies off the map with base harass so that you could take a third and start macroing the Thor banshee marine comp with 6 gas. | ||
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CannonFodder
United States17 Posts
Don't have the build in front me (I'm at work, bwhahahaha) but I encourage people to watch his VODs if interested. For what it's worth I've been using his build, and ensuing unit composition in Diamond league, and I probably win 80% of my TvP. I like the build because it doesn't require a lot of micro (Shock cannoning appropriate units is really the only essential thing to do) and is easy to execute (being a 1 base build). Depending on what unit composition Toss goes, Terran can compensate by adding more or less banshee, blue flame helion, marauder, viking, etc while maintaining Thor backbone. | ||
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Riot Janook
United States112 Posts
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Neelia
Germany599 Posts
On March 22 2011 00:00 Janook wrote: Marine/Thor/Banshee is still my standard TvP. Has been for months. I don't use the cloak gimmick, though. The composition is strong, I prefer to spend the extra money on units. + Show Spoiler + I open with a reactor on the barracks after the first marine, which delays the first Thor but makes sure you die to no early pushes. Second refinery when factory is halfway done. No helion, no bunker, wall off with 3 depots. I cut marines before starting my 2nd Thor so I can expand on a reasonable time frame. There is a natural point where you won't be able to afford units + supply depot, I chose that as my expansion timing to stay efficient. Never stop making Thors. Once that expo is up, throw down a bunker in case he's doing a 2 base allin. Take all your gas (cut marines if you need minerals for Thors / Banshees / Infrastructure). Add 2 starports, start pumping banshee. I don't add any barracks until my next expansion has started, just produce out of the one reactored. I also like to add in 3-4 BCs once I'm on 3 base, which completely nullify any phoenix because of their high base armor, and also allows you to keep liquidating your entire gas income without having to add any production. So my 2 and 3 base setup is 1 factory, 2 starports. Banshees on two base, BCs on three base. Extra gas goes to armory upgrades (Weapons on air, armor on Thors). Extra minerals go to barracks. Marines are throwawy units however, useless without any upgrades for them. I cut marines as needed to get faster gas. The composition is incredibly strong and very immobile. I rarely lose direct engagements (even to collosus balls). Instead I usually lose to base trades / snipes. Oh, and if you see them getting Templar, get ghosts and EMP all your banshees and BCs before engaging. If you can EMP Templar, that's great and all, but it's more important to feedback-proof yourself. -3.9k Master Terran If you don't mind could you please post some current replays of this playstyle? I know your old thread but it'd be interesting to see whether you tweaked it und which changes you made. Thank you | ||
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TypeDBS
Germany134 Posts
Actually I have been fooling around with this army-composition in the last few days. Here are my results: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197212.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197213.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197214.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197215.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197216.jpg) There are a few points i noticed: - the raven is important, u need it early, let it stack up 200 energy and make a sick double PDD timing push - u need a aggressive, as i like to call them, "mapcontrol-opening", such as cloak-banshees since ure vunerable to early pushes by the toss. - u need to expand early, u cant support it from 1 base - u can take a fast 3rd or even 4th as well since u will tend to have overmins - its better on smaller maps since thors r soooo slow - u should hit before a templar transition since storms and feedbacks rape ur banshees! I just starting playing around with this so please let me know how to improve this strategy. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190 Templars are really hit/miss against this build since it comes down to micro. You have the ability to storm dodge extremely well with Banshees as they're fast and harder to hit than ground units with storm because of the illusion of where their hitbox is. Feedback doesn't really work that well either when Banshee numbers get really high. Be wary of your banshees stacking too much though. Bad news if the Protoss gets just two good storms off. | ||
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CannonFodder
United States17 Posts
It seems like researching cloak and killing the opponent's observers is a key pillar of your strategy. I normally don't get cloak when I go thor/banshee/something else. I find, at my level at least, that the banshee's are fairly beefy and cloak while probably helpful isn't necessary to win the pitched battle that eventually occurs. Do you think I should just research cloak from now on? Do you use cloaked banshee for harass in addition to attack units? Do you find that not having cloak causes you to lose? Thanks! | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On March 22 2011 03:22 CannonFodder wrote: Synystyr, It seems like researching cloak and killing the opponent's observers is a key pillar of your strategy. I normally don't get cloak when I go thor/banshee/something else. I find, at my level at least, that the banshee's are fairly beefy and cloak while probably helpful isn't necessary to win the pitched battle that eventually occurs. Do you think I should just research cloak from now on? Do you use cloaked banshee for harass in addition to attack units? Do you find that not having cloak causes you to lose? Thanks! I do some cloaked banshee harass, actually more delayed than the norm because it comes after I snipe an observer and usually nets me at least 8 kills with a single banshee plus free scouting. Of course the banshees are also the biggest part of my main army. I find that the 200/200 investment I make is worth way more in the long run because of the chance that I can snipe observers and win an otherwise lopsided battle easily, get free scouting info and kill enough probes to justify the cost of cloak with just that.. I wouldn't go as far as to say observer sniping is a pillar...I actually win many games without being able to snipe the observer. The raw power of banshees is enough to win the battles without cloak, but with it, it can make games completely one-sided in my favor. | ||
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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On March 22 2011 03:34 Rob28 wrote: @OP: for that matter, why don't we see the DT/phoenix build often from toss players? How is this even relevant...? That's a PvZ build and doesn't make any sense mentioning it here...what? >_< | ||
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kusu
Sweden440 Posts
/lazy terran | ||
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HayzE
United States1 Post
As far as an opening, so that you might survive to that point, I'm extremely partial to 1-1-1 for a 3 helion drop, followed by immediate banshee production. From here you can add on another rax, try to get out that expo, or fiddle around for a way to squeak out a thor. Hope this helps. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On March 22 2011 03:34 Rob28 wrote: @OP: for that matter, why don't we see the DT/phoenix build often from toss players? I do not know where your getting at here, are you talking about PvT? PvZ? PvP? Well what ever your going to say, i can tell you why that is weaker than banshee thor because banshee are better than DT at head on fight. DT are more class cannon while banshee can fly and are more mobile as well so that why banshee > DT in this situation. But wat you said was irrelevant and give me more info on what your trying to say. It also seem you did not read the post at all. | ||
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Carapinski
United States1 Post
Masters Terran here, This is my go-to in TvP. I incorporate heavy bio play and use only about 2-5 thors (depending on stalker count). Banshees are pumped off of either 3 or 4 port. I also like to use 1 or 2 ravens to drop the PDD whenever I can force a battle around an expo. The "synergy" between these units is undeniable... I have not found many Protoss who can effectively fight this strategy, as it really does a number on robo heavy builds, which many toss favor v. Terran. gl! | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
1/ Its very hard for you to secure your nature if P decided to put any early pressure on (which he should be doing since he scout no tech lab on rack) 2/ Banshee harrass are no longer effective to high level P. We basicly learn to control our units well enough to fence off doom drop from T so i dont think 1 or 2 banshee is a big deal. 3/ Thor dont have "space" for them to deal with ground army. Most map has small path way which fit 2.5 thors at most. They moves really slow and need scv repair to be enough tanky which is a coin flip since there are chances you lose tons of scvs. 4/ a good P will never go the normal composition vs mech T. for the thor banshee mostly you will see 2 robos immo pump with phoenix (i learn magic box bc of this build) and cannon while teching to HT with storms. Its true that you might kill 1 or 2 obs but first you have to focus fire them, second: phoenix and immo are counter to both of your composition and guess what happen if you waste time on killing other stuff than army?... 5/ To get this composition effective, you need tons and tons of gas which requires at least 3 bases mid game. But without a critical number, a simple colossus push could roll over your army with no effort at all while P are freely expanding. Unless you try to do something cheesy, get ahead and use this build, i dont see how it could work if you are still not convince, follow rootminigun stream: he just 6-0 avilo today? avilo tried every fucked up strat (at least 2 games with banshees) and just got roll over and over that all of us viewers just feel sorry for him.... | ||
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Discount_Glowstix
42 Posts
As with late game, when you have upgraded thors and banshees, this unit composition is hard to stop unless the P knows hows to transition well himself. Even without cloak banshees are frustrating in mass with thor support. It wouldnt just consist of thors+banshees because its late game? a few marines here and there would soak up dmg, along with the thors, and banshees would do well. EDIT: delete this one if you can, i think my spacing reads better | ||
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Discount_Glowstix
42 Posts
your part and harassing much with banshees. You'd force P to make lots of stalkers and or phoenixs. As with late game, when you have upgraded thors and banshees, this unit composition is hard to stop unless the P knows hows to transition well himself. Even without cloak banshees are frustrating in mass with thor support. It wouldnt just consist of thors+banshees because its late game? a few marines here and there would soak up dmg, along with the thors, and banshees would do well. *tried to double space lol | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
Tbh feedback really shouldn't be an issue, it's easy enough to get your banshees down to 50ish energy before battle, so a feedback only does 0-25dmg(and is therefor not really worth feedbacking rather than storming). Basically I feel these units are awesome as a 2 base play with a push that needs to win games, but as maps are getting bigger, warp prism play getting used more and in general games are getting longer, I feel I should rather try make full mech work, since it has the immobility but atleast it's ultra strong lategame(and you have minerals to spend on turrets against WPs). | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Part of these uncommon strats is that people always keep referring to the games won with it but never refer to how often it loses. Mech TvP is one of those strats as well. It is quite bad if protoss knows how to deal with it but if they mindlessly play their 'anti-bio' plan they might lose to it. Everyone remembers Jinro beating MC with mech, noone brings up the tons of other games where mech gets demolished (search up some Goody replays if you don't believe me, many of them are hard losses). Like others said, banshee play loses hard to feedback. It doesn't matter if you kill the observer when the banshee's are out of energy. Thors aren't particulary effective against zealots either, so a P army based on zealot + templar simply demolishes this combo. | ||
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Farehnheit
Canada42 Posts
The weakness of this composition is in void rays I think. Sure you can add marines to round out your army, but now you have bio, mech, and air upgrades to do? It's a mess. | ||
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_Search_
Canada180 Posts
The problem isn't feedback because banshees can be cloak/decloaked nearly instantly by just hitting the D and C keys rapidly to kill the banshees' energy. Psi storm is more of an issue (isn't it always?). But the real problem is mobility, upgrades, production and gas income. You really cannot support Thor/Banshee on four geysers, and Blizzard insists on making securing a third base absolutely hellish. If you don't have 6 or 8 geysers not only will you be outproduced but you'll start hoarding minerals, and un-upgraded marines are garbage! Hellions, the other mineral-only unit, are terrible in an army. They have such low DPS that unless they're microed to death even Zealots will kill them. Terran NEEDS gas! Also, Thors take a long, long, long, long (read: long) time to build. Compared to Toss, who warp in a round of gateway units on command, Thor production is just far too difficult. To make a Thor build viable at least 2 factories are needed, but 4 or 5 are preferred. With tech labs and lost mining time included each factory costs 240/125 and take 85 seconds to build, occupying 1 supply of SCV for 60 seconds. Compare this to the Robotics Facility, which costs 200/100 and takes 65 seconds to build. In other words, for every 1 factory Terran builds, Toss can build roughly 3 gateways, and warp gate production is far stronger than factory production. Upgrades are also an issue. I tend to have one armoury upgrading either vehicle plating or ship weapons, but even that seems cost-inefficient. I only do it because I have to make the armoury anyways. 3/3 banshees do not increase in quality enough to justify the cost (especially if you're having to add armouries), and 3/3 Thors tend to not kill any quicker than 0/0 Thors as their attack mechanic is still one huge blow with a heavy cooldown, which means that zealots and stalkers tend to require the same number of shots, only more upgrades means more overkill. Also, hardened shields mean immortals have a limit on how much damage they will take, nullifying weapon upgrades, and if you manage to get hits in on the Colossi, well, lets just say the toss' problems extend far beyond +1 upgrades. Vehicle plating makes sense, though, since Thors will be absorbing many attacks, and SCVs need as much time as possible to get those repairs in. The final problem is mobility. Thors are TERRIBLY slow. This means that you are relying entirely on Banshees to guard everything beyond your main choke. In other words, remember all those expos you set up for the extra gas? You better be hoping the toss won't bring observers when they move out to tear them down, because a PF won't hold a deathball by itself. And since Thors are so slow the Protoss has more than enough time to clear out an expansion and get back home before Terran has the chance to counter-attack. | ||
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PowerKock
46 Posts
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