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On March 22 2011 00:30 Ragoo wrote:
I don't really see problems with feedback at all. Thor+Banshee/BC is such a lategame composition that you should be able to get a Ghost out to EMP the Banshees/BCs before the battle. And Ghosts are useful anyway cause they counter every Protoss unit.
Well for banshees it's easier to just research cloak and then cloak/uncloak a few times to get rid of all energy.
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On March 21 2011 18:10 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 17:44 Farehnheit wrote:
@infernal
If you understand (or maybe you don't) what unneccesary information means, then why do you think I am posing opening builds as late game transitions? The information I gave about opening with Thor + Banshee with or without an expo doesn't apply to the late game transition that the OP is talking about. It's almost as if that info was *gasp* unneccesary. Fixed for you, because that is what your extra information was regarding this discussion and/or the OP's question.
Congrats, you've learned what extra means. Did you use a thesaurus?
User was warned for this post
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How does this build fare vs. a void ray and zealot heavy comp that cuts back on robo units? It seems like it is lacking in armored aa.
In regard to safe transitions, would a 1-1-1 opener with a rax and tech lab fact and port for quick siege and banshee be too gas intensive on two base? On the larger maps in ladder early siege would help with early pressure builds and the first few banshees could be used to pressure toss armies off the map with base harass so that you could take a third and start macroing the Thor banshee marine comp with 6 gas.
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I stole Trump's Thor/Banshee/Marine build which he has been using on his stream for about a month now with high success at master's level. He definitely seems to win more TvP than other matchups. His opening is cool because it's 1 base for a while (which is sort of a given because of Thor's cost) but because he researches Shock Cannon early and mass repair of Thor's is so powerful, the Toss can lose to a 1 or 2 Thor push if he fast expands. If the Toss attacks into the early Thor + marine/bunker army and loses too many units, then the Thor +SCV/marine counter attack almost never loses. Also, once Thor counts get high the mid-game/late-game army seems very robust.
Don't have the build in front me (I'm at work, bwhahahaha) but I encourage people to watch his VODs if interested.
For what it's worth I've been using his build, and ensuing unit composition in Diamond league, and I probably win 80% of my TvP. I like the build because it doesn't require a lot of micro (Shock cannoning appropriate units is really the only essential thing to do) and is easy to execute (being a 1 base build). Depending on what unit composition Toss goes, Terran can compensate by adding more or less banshee, blue flame helion, marauder, viking, etc while maintaining Thor backbone.
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I would correct you, but Shock Cannon sounds way cooler. Time to petition Blizz for skill name change?
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On March 22 2011 00:00 Janook wrote:Marine/Thor/Banshee is still my standard TvP. Has been for months. I don't use the cloak gimmick, though. The composition is strong, I prefer to spend the extra money on units. + Show Spoiler +I open with a reactor on the barracks after the first marine, which delays the first Thor but makes sure you die to no early pushes. Second refinery when factory is halfway done. No helion, no bunker, wall off with 3 depots. I cut marines before starting my 2nd Thor so I can expand on a reasonable time frame. There is a natural point where you won't be able to afford units + supply depot, I chose that as my expansion timing to stay efficient. Never stop making Thors.
Once that expo is up, throw down a bunker in case he's doing a 2 base allin. Take all your gas (cut marines if you need minerals for Thors / Banshees / Infrastructure). Add 2 starports, start pumping banshee. I don't add any barracks until my next expansion has started, just produce out of the one reactored.
I also like to add in 3-4 BCs once I'm on 3 base, which completely nullify any phoenix because of their high base armor, and also allows you to keep liquidating your entire gas income without having to add any production.
So my 2 and 3 base setup is 1 factory, 2 starports. Banshees on two base, BCs on three base. Extra gas goes to armory upgrades (Weapons on air, armor on Thors).
Extra minerals go to barracks. Marines are throwawy units however, useless without any upgrades for them. I cut marines as needed to get faster gas.
The composition is incredibly strong and very immobile. I rarely lose direct engagements (even to collosus balls). Instead I usually lose to base trades / snipes.
Oh, and if you see them getting Templar, get ghosts and EMP all your banshees and BCs before engaging. If you can EMP Templar, that's great and all, but it's more important to feedback-proof yourself.
-3.9k Master Terran
If you don't mind could you please post some current replays of this playstyle? I know your old thread but it'd be interesting to see whether you tweaked it und which changes you made.
Thank you 
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Hey guys, im DBS and im a 4k Masters EU Terran
Actually I have been fooling around with this army-composition in the last few days. Here are my results:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197212.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197213.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197214.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197215.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197216.jpg)
There are a few points i noticed:
- the raven is important, u need it early, let it stack up 200 energy and make a sick double PDD timing push
- u need a aggressive, as i like to call them, "mapcontrol-opening", such as cloak-banshees since ure vunerable to early pushes by the toss.
- u need to expand early, u cant support it from 1 base
- u can take a fast 3rd or even 4th as well since u will tend to have overmins
- its better on smaller maps since thors r soooo slow
- u should hit before a templar transition since storms and feedbacks rape ur banshees!
I just starting playing around with this so please let me know how to improve this strategy.
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This is pretty much what I've been doing exclusively in TvP. I don't make too many Thors though because I would rather have more Banshees personally. Both are solid units however so it's not a big deal to have a few extra Thors and cut a few banshees off.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190
Templars are really hit/miss against this build since it comes down to micro. You have the ability to storm dodge extremely well with Banshees as they're fast and harder to hit than ground units with storm because of the illusion of where their hitbox is. Feedback doesn't really work that well either when Banshee numbers get really high. Be wary of your banshees stacking too much though. Bad news if the Protoss gets just two good storms off.
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Synystyr,
It seems like researching cloak and killing the opponent's observers is a key pillar of your strategy. I normally don't get cloak when I go thor/banshee/something else. I find, at my level at least, that the banshee's are fairly beefy and cloak while probably helpful isn't necessary to win the pitched battle that eventually occurs.
Do you think I should just research cloak from now on? Do you use cloaked banshee for harass in addition to attack units? Do you find that not having cloak causes you to lose?
Thanks!
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On March 22 2011 03:22 CannonFodder wrote:
Synystyr,
It seems like researching cloak and killing the opponent's observers is a key pillar of your strategy. I normally don't get cloak when I go thor/banshee/something else. I find, at my level at least, that the banshee's are fairly beefy and cloak while probably helpful isn't necessary to win the pitched battle that eventually occurs.
Do you think I should just research cloak from now on? Do you use cloaked banshee for harass in addition to attack units? Do you find that not having cloak causes you to lose?
Thanks!
I do some cloaked banshee harass, actually more delayed than the norm because it comes after I snipe an observer and usually nets me at least 8 kills with a single banshee plus free scouting. Of course the banshees are also the biggest part of my main army. I find that the 200/200 investment I make is worth way more in the long run because of the chance that I can snipe observers and win an otherwise lopsided battle easily, get free scouting info and kill enough probes to justify the cost of cloak with just that..
I wouldn't go as far as to say observer sniping is a pillar...I actually win many games without being able to snipe the observer. The raw power of banshees is enough to win the battles without cloak, but with it, it can make games completely one-sided in my favor.
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@OP: for that matter, why don't we see the DT/phoenix build often from toss players?
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On March 22 2011 03:34 Rob28 wrote:
@OP: for that matter, why don't we see the DT/phoenix build often from toss players?
How is this even relevant...? That's a PvZ build and doesn't make any sense mentioning it here...what? >_<
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I'd like to hear more of Janooks TvP style. I tried that before and it didn't really work out. I'd really love to see a guide/replays.
/lazy terran
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As a plat Terran, take my advice with a grain of salt, but I have had relative success with double factory thor production, with one, and eventually two or three starports for banshees. The trick seems to be finding a way to spend spend those minerals, since its such a gas heavy build (namely, marines for better dps, or helions for streamlined upgrades, among other various uses.)
As far as an opening, so that you might survive to that point, I'm extremely partial to 1-1-1 for a 3 helion drop, followed by immediate banshee production. From here you can add on another rax, try to get out that expo, or fiddle around for a way to squeak out a thor.
Hope this helps. 
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On March 22 2011 03:34 Rob28 wrote:
@OP: for that matter, why don't we see the DT/phoenix build often from toss players?
I do not know where your getting at here, are you talking about PvT? PvZ? PvP?
Well what ever your going to say, i can tell you why that is weaker than banshee thor because banshee are better than DT at head on fight. DT are more class cannon while banshee can fly and are more mobile as well so that why banshee > DT in this situation. But wat you said was irrelevant and give me more info on what your trying to say. It also seem you did not read the post at all.
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Hey OP,
Masters Terran here,
This is my go-to in TvP. I incorporate heavy bio play and use only about 2-5 thors (depending on stalker count). Banshees are pumped off of either 3 or 4 port. I also like to use 1 or 2 ravens to drop the PDD whenever I can force a battle around an expo. The "synergy" between these units is undeniable... I have not found many Protoss who can effectively fight this strategy, as it really does a number on robo heavy builds, which many toss favor v. Terran.
gl!
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thor banshee is not that uncommon. In fact i have seen plenty good one but there are always a down side to it:
1/ Its very hard for you to secure your nature if P decided to put any early pressure on (which he should be doing since he scout no tech lab on rack)
2/ Banshee harrass are no longer effective to high level P. We basicly learn to control our units well enough to fence off doom drop from T so i dont think 1 or 2 banshee is a big deal.
3/ Thor dont have "space" for them to deal with ground army. Most map has small path way which fit 2.5 thors at most. They moves really slow and need scv repair to be enough tanky which is a coin flip since there are chances you lose tons of scvs.
4/ a good P will never go the normal composition vs mech T. for the thor banshee mostly you will see 2 robos immo pump with phoenix (i learn magic box bc of this build) and cannon while teching to HT with storms. Its true that you might kill 1 or 2 obs but first you have to focus fire them, second: phoenix and immo are counter to both of your composition and guess what happen if you waste time on killing other stuff than army?...
5/ To get this composition effective, you need tons and tons of gas which requires at least 3 bases mid game. But without a critical number, a simple colossus push could roll over your army with no effort at all while P are freely expanding. Unless you try to do something cheesy, get ahead and use this build, i dont see how it could work
if you are still not convince, follow rootminigun stream: he just 6-0 avilo today? avilo tried every fucked up strat (at least 2 games with banshees) and just got roll over and over that all of us viewers just feel sorry for him....
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Playing mass banshees + Thors is extremely frustrating. I think this is viable as long as you are doing your part and harassing much with banshees. You'd force P to make lots of stalkers and or phoenixs.
As with late game, when you have upgraded thors and banshees, this unit composition is hard to stop unless the P knows hows to transition well himself. Even without cloak banshees are frustrating in mass with thor support. It wouldnt just consist of thors+banshees because its late game? a few marines here and there would soak up dmg, along with the thors, and banshees would do well.
EDIT: delete this one if you can, i think my spacing reads better
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Playing mass banshees + Thors is extremely frustrating. I think this is viable as long as you are doing
your part and harassing much with banshees. You'd force P to make lots of stalkers and or phoenixs.
As with late game, when you have upgraded thors and banshees, this unit composition is hard to stop
unless the P knows hows to transition well himself. Even without cloak banshees are frustrating in
mass with thor support. It wouldnt just consist of thors+banshees because its late game? a few
marines here and there would soak up dmg, along with the thors, and banshees would do well.
*tried to double space lol
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I love this army combo, but personally I just feel it's to hard to deal with a player with as good econ making phoenix from double stargate, especially after storm. In essence, I want my thors in the front tanking for the rines. This however makes the thor AI focus on ground units in range, so my rines need to be rather close to help deal with the phoenixes that are slaughtering the banshees, but this makes them in danger of storms.
Tbh feedback really shouldn't be an issue, it's easy enough to get your banshees down to 50ish energy before battle, so a feedback only does 0-25dmg(and is therefor not really worth feedbacking rather than storming).
Basically I feel these units are awesome as a 2 base play with a push that needs to win games, but as maps are getting bigger, warp prism play getting used more and in general games are getting longer, I feel I should rather try make full mech work, since it has the immobility but atleast it's ultra strong lategame(and you have minerals to spend on turrets against WPs).
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EPT
