EPTI heard Losira's games were worth watching and haven't had the chance...now i see why, this really makes me think that ZvT is on the verge of changing, especially with the infestor changes ZvT could be moving to a more infestor/baneling mid game which was always so good anyways...I think Losira may have just broken ZvT...in favor of Zerg...its about time for a change
Analyzing Losira's ZvT - Page 2
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Sega92
United States467 Posts
I heard Losira's games were worth watching and haven't had the chance...now i see why, this really makes me think that ZvT is on the verge of changing, especially with the infestor changes ZvT could be moving to a more infestor/baneling mid game which was always so good anyways...I think Losira may have just broken ZvT...in favor of Zerg...its about time for a change | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
Once I begin to recognize this style of play it seems like your going to pay for your vulnerability to air, Two banshees can easily deny your 3rd basically forever and then your going to need mutas anyway. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
But without muta, if my opponent is going for a heavy tank build, even if my ling bane roach kills all marine, I still have huge difficulties to kill the tanks. | ||
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Overswarm
United States62 Posts
OL's patrolling with OL speed at key spots give you a ton of visibility. Seriously, use patrol. You'll see the OLs coming and lings and banelings with speed can wreck any drop. | ||
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SecretA5DC
Korea (South)225 Posts
However, the lack of Muta harass is nice, once I get some Tanks out I feel like I have a good opportunity to take a third easier than versus a standard Muta Ling Bane Zerg | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
On March 16 2011 17:40 MrBitter wrote: Muta/Ling/Bane: Those are the three words that have defined this matchup for months. It’s a very potent, explosive style that builds on the mobility and the expendability of the Zerg race to punish Terran players for being out of position, or for just leaving their base in general. I actually wrote a guide about using this composition in ZvT just last week, and was happy to see Losira making such heavy use of it. See http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199853 | ||
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Juice303
United States42 Posts
 . Burrowed banes everywhere; terran get yourself a raven or have fun blowing 100 scans on your way to Zergs base . Bane drops; who said anything about us having to run our banes into your Terran ball of doom? We are just gonna drop them on your head! HA!. Oh no medivacs and drop play, well since i have a million banes maybe 3-4 burrowed banes at each mineral line for funzies( PEAKABOO, BOOM!)Thoughts on abusing the many many banes zergs will have when forgoing mutas. Little balance rage here but WHY THE HELL do SCV's have 45 hp!!!!! I can pop probes/drones with 1 +2attack bane but not scv's, this makes me a sad panda. P.S. Would burrowed banes give you the same semblance of map control in the mid game that mutas do? If you simply have burrowed banes from his base to yours, terran would wisely wait for a raven before making any major pushes. Blowing scan after scan just doesn't seem reasonable. | ||
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zerglingrodeo
United States910 Posts
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xCyan1de
United States64 Posts
 ). I thought mass banelings would be awesome ( always have <3 banelings), but I hand found a way to get a critical mass of them before I get killed. I think that it was because I went a normal lair time because I can stand banelings without speed. But now I shall try this, but i think itll take alot of practice to hold the early pressure. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
I've seen Terrans make bio blind turrets when facing mass infestors, and Protoss getting immortals, stalkers and collossi against mass speed/baneling/Ultra. When I face an unusual build I know that my macro suffers because I am indecisive about how to react. I think that Losira's play has been working because his Terran opponents have not yet correctly adjusted to this style, who can blame them, they haven't needed to. Over time, once adjustments have been made, I think that this style will prove less solid than current ZvT standard builds. I think that it order for a player to have success, and win these prestigious tournaments, they must do what Losira has done: Play solidly, and develop solid new styles that your opponents will be unprepared for. As the SC2 evolves and becomes more balanced, I think that innovation will come into the foreground as the trait that sets the champs apart from the chumps. | ||
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jrdn
United States132 Posts
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
Late lair and few or no mutas meant not many harass options, but he actually just attacked. He was perfectly content to attack up a ramp into siege tanks, using only roach/ling/bling. Even wen he traded his entire army for only 2 tanks and a depot, he was still in the game. | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
On March 16 2011 23:33 statikg wrote: As a masters T I am both concerned, yet not. Allows for marauders into your bio mix, save a ton on turrets, one viking maintains map control, drop efficacy way up, banshees wreck havok. There are some major disadvantages for giving up muta map control. In exchange you are better positioned to deny my 3rd, but eventually I'll still be able to take it. Once I begin to recognize this style of play it seems like your going to pay for your vulnerability to air, Two banshees can easily deny your 3rd basically forever and then your going to need mutas anyway. This sums up my worries fairly well. I watched Losira's play with admiration for sure but most (all?) of us aren't nearly as gosu as he is -- I feel like marauder + drop + banshee could really put the hurt on roachbane style. Still, I definitely want to experiment with this. I know you weren't saying this is the be all, end all of Z strategy; I am just hoping to provoke discussion with regards to possible T reaction to this style. | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
This big’s the question: Why do we get mutas in the first place? Simple answer: Siege Tanks. Siege tanks murder ling/baneling. They murder ling/baneling soooo hard. Single tank shots can take out clusters of banelings at a time, and when Terran gets 4, 5, 6… 10 siege tanks… Engaging with a ground army gets really tricky. Have to disagree with the article here. Siege tanks are not the reason why we get mutas. Siege tanks can be surrounded & killed by mass lings. Sure mutas help in picking off the tanks, but that's not the simple answer. No, the main reasons we get mutas are: -force turrets -contain terran in base while you get 3rd up -deal with medivac drops I haven't watched Losira play, but how does he deal with drop play? You need those mutas to kill the medivacs. Same with banshees. If you are not making mutas, then all you have to deal with banshees are queens + spores, which will significantly delay your 3rd, and either require you to overproduce on queens, or will cause your macro to suffer as you constantly run your 3-4 queens between 3 bases. Mutas force turrets. No mutas = no need for turrets, now terran can take his 3rd and get critical mass of marines that much quicker. Also, mutas give map control and contain terran, making him afraid to move out. No mutas means terran will be much more aggressive in denying 3rd and getting into position. Lastly, no mutas opens you up to a hellion/marauder mid-game attack, which is devastating against roach/ling/bane. Does Losira change and go mutas in this case? I would think you'd have to to avoid dying. | ||
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birdkicker
United States752 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On March 17 2011 03:27 BlasiuS wrote: Have to disagree with the article here. Siege tanks are not the reason why we get mutas. Siege tanks can be surrounded & killed by mass lings. Sure mutas help in picking off the tanks, but that's not the simple answer. No, the main reasons we get mutas are: -force turrets -contain terran in base while you get 3rd up -deal with medivac drops I haven't watched Losira play, but how does he deal with drop play? You need those mutas to kill the medivacs. Same with banshees. If you are not making mutas, then all you have to deal with banshees are queens + spores, which will significantly delay your 3rd, and either require you to overproduce on queens, or will cause your macro to suffer as you constantly run your 3-4 queens between 3 bases. Mutas force turrets. No mutas = no need for turrets, now terran can take his 3rd and get critical mass of marines that much quicker. Also, mutas give map control and contain terran, making him afraid to move out. No mutas means terran will be much more aggressive in denying 3rd and getting into position. Lastly, no mutas opens you up to a hellion/marauder mid-game attack, which is devastating against roach/ling/bane. Does Losira change and go mutas in this case? I would think you'd have to to avoid dying. Mutas are still a viable, and natural "next step", and its one that Losira used in most his games. But its not something he used in every game, and I think that's what's most important. Mutas are a part of the Zerg's tool-box. Not a necessary component to every single game. | ||
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EggYsc2
620 Posts
b)idras been doing this for a while c)ive been doing this for a while since i learned from idra *cough* | ||
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GP
United States1056 Posts
On March 17 2011 06:08 MadCatZ wrote: a) this isnt anything new b)idras been doing this for a while c)ive been doing this for a while since i learned from idra *cough* Idra has definitely not been doing this for a while. Have you even read his analysis? | ||
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OmNomSpy
United States68 Posts
On March 17 2011 06:08 MadCatZ wrote: a) this isnt anything new b)idras been doing this for a while c)ive been doing this for a while since i learned from idra *cough* a) Going high economy roach/ling/baneling with melee upgrades is a new emerging strategy. Losira specifically delays his lair more than any other big name player I've seen. b) No. c) Good for you, but you didn't put the time and effort into making a clear post about it like good sir Mr.Bitters did. | ||
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