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Hey guys,
I wrote a short analysis of Losira's very solid ZvT style that he used to such great effect in the Code A finals.
You can see the full article here:
http://www.evolutioncomplete.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=49&Itemid=786
And here's an excerpt:
Losira’s play in this season of the GSL has been pretty dominant, which is really saying something in an era that’s been more or less defined by rants about Zerg being underpowered. In his recent Code A run, Losira has really shown some amazing games across all matchups, but what I really want to focus on today is his ZvT style. In order to really talk about Losira’s ZvT, though, we should probably first talk about the state of ZvT in Starcraft II in general.
Muta/Ling/Bane: Those are the three words that have defined this matchup for months. It’s a very potent, explosive style that builds on the mobility and the expendability of the Zerg race to punish Terran players for being out of position, or for just leaving their base in general. While the strength of muta/ling/bane is undeniable, one must also acknowledge how damn hard it can be to engage a Terran ball regardless of your unit composition. In the early stages of the mid-game, muta/ling/bane is amazing, but as games drag on, and as Terran becomes more and more stable, the raw fighting power of the muta/ling/bane army really begins to dwindle – and this, of course, only occurs if a Zerg player manages to survive whatever early pressure Terran throws his way.
This is the jumping off point I want to establish for the genius that is Losira’s recent ZvT.
If we were to define the key points of a typical Zerg vs. Terran game, it would probably look like this:
Some kind of early expand in close proximity with zergling speed.
- This gives Zerg both early map control, and the economic boon he needs to survive
A relatively quick Lair: usually with Zerg’s 2nd 100 gas.
- This opens up the Zerg tech tree, giving quick access to both baneling speed, and mutas, long-time benchmarks of ZvT
A tremendous gas investment in mutas, while using the map control they grant to expand freely
- Map control is everything, and mutas give us that.
Constant harass, ideally denying the Terran’s 3rd base, and eventually forcing a 2 base all-in that Zerg wins with a huge baneling/ling/muta engagement
- This is best case scenario, and it’s one that virtually every Terran player is familiar with.
However… Things change. Players improve. Metagames shift.
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Woooot? MrBitter, I didn't know you had a site like this, with event schedule and everything. And jemag has a stream too, yay  Very well done. Starting to read know, was waiting for this since I heard about it on your stream yesterday. Thanks!
CD
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I agree that the current trend in ZvT on most "safe maps" (long rush distances) the trend is to FE as zerg. However, I have recently been playing purely the stand safe opening of 14 gas 14 pool or close variations to get ling speed up quick. After seeing LosirA's game vs Byun in code A on shakuras where LosirA went gas before pool got great scouting intel on byuns stand FE as terran. This allowed Losira to have the information of knowning he could double expand and mass drone for endless amounts of time. Since seeing this game I have tried to emulate the exact style of play and it has been working great, however at first I realized I died a little bit to the 4 barracks after expansion marine/maurader stim timing push. So I worked on positioning overlords at optimal places to sac for the timing and it has worked great because if they do not do that push I am free to drone for an even longer amount of time and sometimes I can even get up a fourth base before the terran even moves out on his two bases. So I have been really enjoying the 14 gas 14 pool opener on ladder and a lot of terran still do 2 racks pressure and often make to big of a commitment against my speed opener and I can take an early advantage against the "mid master" terrans.
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Very nice read. I'm not exactly as enthousiastic about it as you seem to be, though. I like the conclusion, but at the moment hive tech seems to be quite weak so it's hard to imagine a better use of gas than mutas or baneling.
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<3 mrbitter
I was only able to watch few of Losira's games, and was disappointed that i didn't get to see his style in action and wasn't able to copy it.... so this article is just godsend :D
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On March 16 2011 17:55 evils_death wrote:
<3 mrbitter
I was only able to watch few of Losira's games, and was disappointed that i didn't get to see his style in action and wasn't able to copy it.... so this article is just godsend :D
Support sc2 and eSports and purchase the premium ticket to the vods so you don't have to watch them live at 2 a.m all the time.
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On March 16 2011 17:56 frozt_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 17:55 evils_death wrote:
<3 mrbitter
I was only able to watch few of Losira's games, and was disappointed that i didn't get to see his style in action and wasn't able to copy it.... so this article is just godsend :D Support sc2 and eSports and purchase the premium ticket to the vods so you don't have to watch them live at 2 a.m all the time.
I live in australia so GSL starts at 8pm for me :D
But I seriously do think thats a good idea, as I'm having trouble with SQ streams.... T.T
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As a Z player I was sooo pumped watching Losira play (also July, also FD in up/down), I think your article is great and pretty much sums up my thinking on the issue and equals my excitement about it. Well written, to the point, I love it, almost as much as I love Losira and all other great Zergs!!
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Great article, I missed Losira's games, but was aware of the "delaying your lair timing" build. However, you explained the finesses for me
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Very interesting article.
The late sentence is a wink to your "Skipping mutas for Infestors" article, MrBitter ?^^
One thing that makes me wonder is how good is this approach when dealing agaist drops ? It always have been the problem of non-mutas ZvT plays. Now T focus much more on marine-tank agression because it is doing so well against muta/ling/bane, but is a muta-less strategy long term viable because of this very threat of drop play?
I'd love to hear your opinion about this.
And I would like to add that your stream is one of the most useful content ever about SC2 strategy and you're part of the reason I'm not that bad of a player now. So thank you MrBitter.
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I love going mass banelings as well, always have since the beta. There is nothing more hilarious than blowing up the entire terran army ..... his natural ...... and his barracks in one giant acidy explosion. However I find this type of play is very susceptible to a Terran who employs a ton of drops, I always had a lot of trouble against drops but maybe there are cost effective ways of stopping drop play besides mutalisk. Good amounts of sunkens and infestors are the obvious answer but as the game goes on and your bases become increasingly spread across the map it gets hard to manage.
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nice write up MrBitter, i really enjoy reading the strategy writeups for zerg (zerg player myself). This doesn't seem too cost effective but i love seeing HUGE amounts of banelings. I'm going to have to try this out myself XD
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On March 16 2011 18:08 Synk wrote:
I love going mass banelings as well, always have since the beta. There is nothing more hilarious than blowing up the entire terran army ..... his natural ...... and his barracks in one giant acidy explosion. However I find this type of play is very susceptible to a Terran who employs a ton of drops, I always had a lot of trouble against drops but maybe there are cost effective ways of stopping drop play besides mutalisk. Good amounts of sunkens and infestors are the obvious answer but as the game goes on and your bases become increasingly spread across the map it gets hard to manage. Well not only drop play destroys this play but also mech, as baneling are pretty useless against mech. However, if you just go pure baneling you basically are going to become in cost effective as time goes on because stim marines can out micro banelings easily with siege tanks and when he gets enough tanks your army and economy will be gone. killing tanks with banelings is so cost ineffective it is not the optimal strategy in a high level setting.
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Interestingly enough, the Zv P(!) match-up also shifts towards a very late lair at the moment. The reasons are similar. Time to drone up (you also need an evo to be save against air and to go +1 lings or range).
So, I am definitely looking into this style and I actually quite like it.
Good post.
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Interesting.. but I would like to know how this would deal with drops. Just going mass baneling/roach/ling seems like it would be just asking for the terran to do drops on you in multiple locations... I'll have to try this out
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You sir are one of the reasons why I stick to Zerg. The amount of time you spend helping out us zergplayers are SOOO much appreciated. You probably know that already but I dont know if people tell you enough!
Thank you so much!
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Can we have a replay or BO plz with that, because this sounds amazing Mr.Bitter <3
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Thanks for highlighting a very exciting Z style. Watching those games I didn't think there was any way Losira was going to break some of the siege lines, but he just pounded through with that roach/ling/bane army. A couple points about his play stuck out to me as well:
Early and continuous upgrades. He started his +1s earlier than many "rush and save for muta" zergs do. When Lair eventually kicked in, he was ready to start +2s and stuff like baneling speed. I think his armor advantage really helped some of his waves of units that rolled over his opponents.
Crazy drones. He had 90+ in one of the games. And yet, he was spending all his money. Upgrades and banelings! Both roaches and banelings are more larva efficient than pure lings, so I think using that tech mix let him squeeze out more drones safely early on. Later, the supply efficiency of his banes meant he wasn't stuck up against the 200 cap too quickly.
A couple questions though. Do Terrans usually get Armory and mech upgrades earlier? I'm not sure if Losira's upgrade advantage is something Z can count on in this matchup, but it might be. It was surprising to see banes do so well against bunkers+tanks. I also wonder what kind of micro Losira did in some of his engagements. Roaches in first, to take some hits, but his ling/bling control seemed super effective. Was that just a-move with zerglings and move command on the banes, or something more sophisticated?
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An interesting read but as some people mentioned, the lack of mutalisks will make it hard to deal with drops. But then again if you have so much stuff, you could leave a few roaches and banelings behind, near the mineral line so to kill off drops. Also the extra money from not making muta's could also go into spines/spores possibly to defend.
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I ♥ you Mr Bitter as I'm sure you know already this style is going to make me super strong
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<3 thank you so much for this!
I heard Losira's games were worth watching and haven't had the chance...now i see why, this really makes me think that ZvT is on the verge of changing, especially with the infestor changes ZvT could be moving to a more infestor/baneling mid game which was always so good anyways...I think Losira may have just broken ZvT...in favor of Zerg...its about time for a change
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As a masters T I am both concerned, yet not. Allows for marauders into your bio mix, save a ton on turrets, one viking maintains map control, drop efficacy way up, banshees wreck havok. There are some major disadvantages for giving up muta map control. In exchange you are better positioned to deny my 3rd, but eventually I'll still be able to take it.
Once I begin to recognize this style of play it seems like your going to pay for your vulnerability to air, Two banshees can easily deny your 3rd basically forever and then your going to need mutas anyway.
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I'm already trying this muta / not muta build, usually going for zergling/roach/bane with heavy upgrade into infestor and a fast 3rd. Then hive tech. (I get this build from watching bitter in fact ^^).
But without muta, if my opponent is going for a heavy tank build, even if my ling bane roach kills all marine, I still have huge difficulties to kill the tanks.
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Before people start asking about this:
OL's patrolling with OL speed at key spots give you a ton of visibility. Seriously, use patrol. You'll see the OLs coming and lings and banelings with speed can wreck any drop.
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As a Terran player, this looks extremely scary to play against. I'm actually not sure how to defend vs a Mass Baneling Attack with my current 1 racks FE TvZ.
However, the lack of Muta harass is nice, once I get some Tanks out I feel like I have a good opportunity to take a third easier than versus a standard Muta Ling Bane Zerg
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On March 16 2011 17:40 MrBitter wrote:
Muta/Ling/Bane: Those are the three words that have defined this matchup for months. It’s a very potent, explosive style that builds on the mobility and the expendability of the Zerg race to punish Terran players for being out of position, or for just leaving their base in general.
I actually wrote a guide about using this composition in ZvT just last week, and was happy to see Losira making such heavy use of it. See http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199853
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I be popping PFs all day with that many banes . Burrowed banes everywhere; terran get yourself a raven or have fun blowing 100 scans on your way to Zergs base . Bane drops; who said anything about us having to run our banes into your Terran ball of doom? We are just gonna drop them on your head! HA!. Oh no medivacs and drop play, well since i have a million banes maybe 3-4 burrowed banes at each mineral line for funzies( PEAKABOO, BOOM!)
Thoughts on abusing the many many banes zergs will have when forgoing mutas.
Little balance rage here but WHY THE HELL do SCV's have 45 hp!!!!! I can pop probes/drones with 1 +2attack bane but not scv's, this makes me a sad panda.
P.S. Would burrowed banes give you the same semblance of map control in the mid game that mutas do? If you simply have burrowed banes from his base to yours, terran would wisely wait for a raven before making any major pushes. Blowing scan after scan just doesn't seem reasonable.
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I also noticed that the early evo allowed Losira to get fast melee upgrades, which allowed his ling/bane to be that much more effective.
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Damn, this is actually something I had been thinking up myself recently (wasnt able to see the GSL  ). I thought mass banelings would be awesome ( always have <3 banelings), but I hand found a way to get a critical mass of them before I get killed. I think that it was because I went a normal lair time because I can stand banelings without speed. But now I shall try this, but i think itll take alot of practice to hold the early pressure.
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I feel that a big reason that this and other new unusual Zerg builds (Aquanda Style ZvP, MrBitter's Infestor rush) are so effective is because the people that face it are so used to seeing Muta/Ling/Bane or Roach/Hydra/Corruptor every game. When facing familiar builds, reactions and transitions come naturally through repetition and practice.
I've seen Terrans make bio blind turrets when facing mass infestors, and Protoss getting immortals, stalkers and collossi against mass speed/baneling/Ultra. When I face an unusual build I know that my macro suffers because I am indecisive about how to react.
I think that Losira's play has been working because his Terran opponents have not yet correctly adjusted to this style, who can blame them, they haven't needed to. Over time, once adjustments have been made, I think that this style will prove less solid than current ZvT standard builds.
I think that it order for a player to have success, and win these prestigious tournaments, they must do what Losira has done: Play solidly, and develop solid new styles that your opponents will be unprepared for. As the SC2 evolves and becomes more balanced, I think that innovation will come into the foreground as the trait that sets the champs apart from the chumps.
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As far as drop/banshees are concerned: 5-6 corruptors provide adequate defense in addition to killing medivacs during prolonged battles.
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What I thought most interesting about losira's style was aggression.
Late lair and few or no mutas meant not many harass options, but he actually just attacked. He was perfectly content to attack up a ramp into siege tanks, using only roach/ling/bling.
Even wen he traded his entire army for only 2 tanks and a depot, he was still in the game.
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On March 16 2011 23:33 statikg wrote:
As a masters T I am both concerned, yet not. Allows for marauders into your bio mix, save a ton on turrets, one viking maintains map control, drop efficacy way up, banshees wreck havok. There are some major disadvantages for giving up muta map control. In exchange you are better positioned to deny my 3rd, but eventually I'll still be able to take it.
Once I begin to recognize this style of play it seems like your going to pay for your vulnerability to air, Two banshees can easily deny your 3rd basically forever and then your going to need mutas anyway.
This sums up my worries fairly well. I watched Losira's play with admiration for sure but most (all?) of us aren't nearly as gosu as he is -- I feel like marauder + drop + banshee could really put the hurt on roachbane style.
Still, I definitely want to experiment with this. I know you weren't saying this is the be all, end all of Z strategy; I am just hoping to provoke discussion with regards to possible T reaction to this style.
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I love Losira's play, but I followed fruitdealers VOD's and run to the GSL 1 championship and FD used a very similar strategy at a time when roaches were unpopular in ZvT. Losira hasn't revolutionized zerg play by any means, his execution is what separates him.
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This big’s the question: Why do we get mutas in the first place?
Simple answer: Siege Tanks. Siege tanks murder ling/baneling. They murder ling/baneling soooo hard. Single tank shots can take out clusters of banelings at a time, and when Terran gets 4, 5, 6… 10 siege tanks… Engaging with a ground army gets really tricky.
Have to disagree with the article here. Siege tanks are not the reason why we get mutas. Siege tanks can be surrounded & killed by mass lings. Sure mutas help in picking off the tanks, but that's not the simple answer. No, the main reasons we get mutas are:
-force turrets
-contain terran in base while you get 3rd up
-deal with medivac drops
I haven't watched Losira play, but how does he deal with drop play? You need those mutas to kill the medivacs. Same with banshees. If you are not making mutas, then all you have to deal with banshees are queens + spores, which will significantly delay your 3rd, and either require you to overproduce on queens, or will cause your macro to suffer as you constantly run your 3-4 queens between 3 bases.
Mutas force turrets. No mutas = no need for turrets, now terran can take his 3rd and get critical mass of marines that much quicker.
Also, mutas give map control and contain terran, making him afraid to move out. No mutas means terran will be much more aggressive in denying 3rd and getting into position.
Lastly, no mutas opens you up to a hellion/marauder mid-game attack, which is devastating against roach/ling/bane. Does Losira change and go mutas in this case? I would think you'd have to to avoid dying.
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I don't get it. The only reason why terran makes marines is because they counter mutalisks. I'm sure if a terran sees mass banelings and no mutalisks he would change his strategy.
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On March 17 2011 03:27 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +
This big’s the question: Why do we get mutas in the first place?
Simple answer: Siege Tanks. Siege tanks murder ling/baneling. They murder ling/baneling soooo hard. Single tank shots can take out clusters of banelings at a time, and when Terran gets 4, 5, 6… 10 siege tanks… Engaging with a ground army gets really tricky.
Have to disagree with the article here. Siege tanks are not the reason why we get mutas. Siege tanks can be surrounded & killed by mass lings. Sure mutas help in picking off the tanks, but that's not the simple answer. No, the main reasons we get mutas are: -force turrets -contain terran in base while you get 3rd up -deal with medivac drops I haven't watched Losira play, but how does he deal with drop play? You need those mutas to kill the medivacs. Same with banshees. If you are not making mutas, then all you have to deal with banshees are queens + spores, which will significantly delay your 3rd, and either require you to overproduce on queens, or will cause your macro to suffer as you constantly run your 3-4 queens between 3 bases. Mutas force turrets. No mutas = no need for turrets, now terran can take his 3rd and get critical mass of marines that much quicker. Also, mutas give map control and contain terran, making him afraid to move out. No mutas means terran will be much more aggressive in denying 3rd and getting into position. Lastly, no mutas opens you up to a hellion/marauder mid-game attack, which is devastating against roach/ling/bane. Does Losira change and go mutas in this case? I would think you'd have to to avoid dying.
Mutas are still a viable, and natural "next step", and its one that Losira used in most his games.
But its not something he used in every game, and I think that's what's most important. Mutas are a part of the Zerg's tool-box. Not a necessary component to every single game.
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a) this isnt anything new
b)idras been doing this for a while
c)ive been doing this for a while since i learned from idra
*cough*
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On March 17 2011 06:08 MadCatZ wrote:
a) this isnt anything new
b)idras been doing this for a while
c)ive been doing this for a while since i learned from idra
*cough*
Idra has definitely not been doing this for a while. Have you even read his analysis?
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On March 17 2011 06:08 MadCatZ wrote:
a) this isnt anything new
b)idras been doing this for a while
c)ive been doing this for a while since i learned from idra
*cough*
a) Going high economy roach/ling/baneling with melee upgrades is a new emerging strategy. Losira specifically delays his lair more than any other big name player I've seen.
b) No.
c) Good for you, but you didn't put the time and effort into making a clear post about it like good sir Mr.Bitters did.
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would you suggest getting drop tech as well MB?
i'm thinking banes + drop tech would be mmmmmmmmmm
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I think mass ling/baneling/roach is only really viable if you have a base advantage. These units are cheap but expendable so you will be spending a lot of gas on units that tend to die.
I definitely feel like infestor openings and ultra transitions are more robust ways of spending your gas. Upgraded lings are extremely good against Terran and you don't really need that many banelings.
That being said there are definitely situations where this build is safer. Roaches can help a lot in close positions to repel marine pushes.
To the people arguing that Terrans just aren't countering this build: awesome. Because the best counter is marauder/hellion/banshee. And what's really good against that? Mutalisk. I really hope the ZvT matchup evolves as people begin exploring other Zerg builds.
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Tried this against my terran buddy a few times today.
Medivac drops (especially w/ hellions) owned me.
Marauders owned me.
Like, hard. Any air harass is extremely difficult to deal with, and there isn't enough time I feel to get to hydras or especially spire.
Thoughts?
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On March 17 2011 10:07 Wintertime wrote:
Tried this against my terran buddy a few times today.
Medivac drops (especially w/ hellions) owned me.
Marauders owned me.
Like, hard. Any air harass is extremely difficult to deal with, and there isn't enough time I feel to get to hydras or especially spire.
Thoughts?
It's ok to still get mutas.... This isn't me saying "OMG GAIS, WE DUN NEED MUTAS NO MOAR", but rather "by delaying your lair, bolstering your economy, and relying on tier 1 units to sustain you into the mid-game, you can make a lot more of everything a few minutes later".
Losira regularly added mutas to combat drop play. He just didn't rush to them with his 2nd 100 gas.
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This doesn't work. The only reason terran gets marines is because he gets ready for mutalisks. As soon as he sees you are massing banelings, he will switch onto reactor hellions.
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Glad to see the article.
About the site though, MrBitter did you announce evolutioncomplete.com at all? It's news to me that it even existed, I've been going directly to your video archives up until now.
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Any replays of this style being executed at a high level? Would love to see some build orders/timings
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On March 17 2011 11:15 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 10:07 Wintertime wrote:
Tried this against my terran buddy a few times today.
Medivac drops (especially w/ hellions) owned me.
Marauders owned me.
Like, hard. Any air harass is extremely difficult to deal with, and there isn't enough time I feel to get to hydras or especially spire.
Thoughts? It's ok to still get mutas.... This isn't me saying "OMG GAIS, WE DUN NEED MUTAS NO MOAR", but rather "by delaying your lair, bolstering your economy, and relying on tier 1 units to sustain you into the mid-game, you can make a lot more of everything a few minutes later". Losira regularly added mutas to combat drop play. He just didn't rush to them with his 2nd 100 gas.
Well you see, the article in question specifically explains losira's style is "forgoing, or at least skimping on the mutas"
I mean, I agree with you, just explaining the responses.
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On March 17 2011 06:02 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 03:27 BlasiuS wrote:
This big’s the question: Why do we get mutas in the first place?
Simple answer: Siege Tanks. Siege tanks murder ling/baneling. They murder ling/baneling soooo hard. Single tank shots can take out clusters of banelings at a time, and when Terran gets 4, 5, 6… 10 siege tanks… Engaging with a ground army gets really tricky.
Have to disagree with the article here. Siege tanks are not the reason why we get mutas. Siege tanks can be surrounded & killed by mass lings. Sure mutas help in picking off the tanks, but that's not the simple answer. No, the main reasons we get mutas are: -force turrets -contain terran in base while you get 3rd up -deal with medivac drops I haven't watched Losira play, but how does he deal with drop play? You need those mutas to kill the medivacs. Same with banshees. If you are not making mutas, then all you have to deal with banshees are queens + spores, which will significantly delay your 3rd, and either require you to overproduce on queens, or will cause your macro to suffer as you constantly run your 3-4 queens between 3 bases. Mutas force turrets. No mutas = no need for turrets, now terran can take his 3rd and get critical mass of marines that much quicker. Also, mutas give map control and contain terran, making him afraid to move out. No mutas means terran will be much more aggressive in denying 3rd and getting into position. Lastly, no mutas opens you up to a hellion/marauder mid-game attack, which is devastating against roach/ling/bane. Does Losira change and go mutas in this case? I would think you'd have to to avoid dying. Mutas are still a viable, and natural "next step", and its one that Losira used in most his games. But its not something he used in every game, and I think that's what's most important. Mutas are a part of the Zerg's tool-box. Not a necessary component to every single game.
also, many players continuously get mutas throughout the game to establish some kind of dominant map control. however, what is wrong with just 5-8 for drops/banshees/hellions/forcing turrets etc and then the rest on roach ling bane
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I really like the new website and it has some brilliant information but for some reason it lags no matter what I click on. Idk if it's because tons of people are swarming it right now or maybe something you should look into.
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I don't like mutas investment. I would absolutely skip muta tech if I can. Say you spend 200 mineral and 200 gas for tech. Then about 500 minerals 500 gas for 5 mutas to harass the terran and have map control.
=>If you use those mineral and gas for overlord + drop tech, most of the time you'll able to wipe out all the SCV that terran has in his main and his natural.
=>700 minerals and 700 gas can give you +1 attack + 1 defend ~ +2 attack upgrade for melee zerglings and banneling dmg.
=>700 minerals and 700 gas can give you 3-4 infestors which can be use to kill so many marines. and open your tech to hive.
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What about Spine Crawlers for drop defense? Two for each base's mineral line is 300/0. Three bases would be 900/0. That's a lot cheaper than 700/700 for five mutas. Spines are defense only, but don't take up supply.
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you are awesome Mr. Bitter. Great write up! gonna try losiras style out on the ladder
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I absolutely hate investing tons and tons of money into units that can't fight spammable hordes of 50 mineral units as much as the next Zerg, but realistically, Zerg just does not have the units available to them to skip mutas in ZvT unless Terran plays an extremely low-tech style.
There's just something horribly depressing about seeing 10+ medivacs flying around the map almost nullifying your lings, taking out your drones and retreating with no losses, dropping freely on your banelings. Or having two Vikings killing every single overlord you need for vision with absolutely nothing around to stop them. Or having a small number of banshees attacking whatever they please and making it impossible to secure map control. This is what happens when I try playing double evo lings + infestors against a player who actually understands the game and isn't just riding marine/tank to diamond.
Once the infestor nerf goes through in 1.3, this will be even more set in stone as infestors will be absolutely useless as your line of defense against these air units, needing double the energy to kill them off.
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An analysis of GSL players from some1 who is actually good, nice
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On March 17 2011 11:19 birdkicker wrote:
This doesn't work. The only reason terran gets marines is because he gets ready for mutalisks. As soon as he sees you are massing banelings, he will switch onto reactor hellions. Right, because if it can win a bo7 in the Code A finals, it doesn't work, right?
In any case, seeing how there are a fair amount of naysayers at the moment, I just want to point out how ling/bling/roach can really dominate marine/tank with the good micro, and in response to some of the other possible terran strats:
a) drops -- as MB said, you will have to get some mutas to deal with these. You just don't need to rush to them. If you are on 2-3 bases, you can defend drops by just splitting up your units and killing any unit that drops out of the medivac. Once your later mutas pop, then you can deny the drops.
b) reactored helions - you have roaches to deal with helions very easily. Also, helions are light, so speed banes on creep actually do quite well against them (they have to run away or they all die really really fast).
c) banshees - make more queens until your later mutas are out.
I just feel so much more safe with roaches added into the mix, as it is way harder for my entire army to die, and I usually have something left (the roaches) after I clean up a terran attack.
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Drop also goes very nicely with this.
Dropping half your army on a siege line while the other half initiates the fight and soaks up the front-end damage is a beautiful thing to behold.
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On March 17 2011 11:19 birdkicker wrote:
This doesn't work. The only reason terran gets marines is because he gets ready for mutalisks. As soon as he sees you are massing banelings, he will switch onto reactor hellions.
What? Losira used just this strategy (in part) to win Code A finals. What are you talking about?
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I really enjoyed watching LosirA's games and his playstyle, but I wish there were some replays out there of other high level Zergs executing it. In the early game its all about the small adjustments, especially with how to defend various harassment while staying on only hatch tech.
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In the GSTL game today against the terran whose name I can't remember, losira got a spire at a reasonable time, and as usual the terran pushed around the time when it would finish. He built no mutas until he was able to repel the push using roach/ling/bling (a fuckton of blings).
I think this makes a lot of sense. Since mutas are no longer effective in keeping terrans in their bases, they are more of a liability than an asset if you are "rushing" for them. You should be able to defend against drops without them on 2 or 3 bases (or with only a couple just to prevent medivacs from never dieing), and after that you can get your nice little flock much more safely.
What I don't really like about losira's play is how he goes absolutely overkill with the banelings, so much so that he has to use them on tanks because he has no other units. IMO a better approach would be investing that gas in fast upgrades and use more lings, but either way the idea is that you should focus on having a lot of stuff rather than "cute units" - since mutas can no longer be considered "power" units.
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In Morrow vs Jinro game two we saw Morrow use massive amounts of baneling while only building like 5-6 mutas.
+ Show Spoiler +To see the strength of it just look at the early game, Morrow lost like 5 drones, 2, yes TWO Spinecrawlers and a shitton of lings to 2rax pressure, then he went for a baneling bust, which completely failed, and he still put up one hell of a fight thanks to massive amounts of banelings with upgrades.
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EPT
