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On March 15 2011 08:07 Westy wrote:
Got to love how half the posts in this thread have nothing to do with what I am asking.
@skyR @aust1nz @BriMikon - You are all wrong. Yes tactics and strategy wise anything other than 1v1 is no help, however the majority of the game is mechanics and macro, and 4v4/3v3/2v2 is the second best thing for practising them, only bested by 1v1's themself. And I get far enough strategy from the countless hours of reply's watched, and strategy threads I have read.
Will try the marine strategy, thanks woowoo and Dromar.
I used to think like this as well, however I have seen a better way of looking at it.
Youre talking about getting in to masters; yes, mechanics and macro will get you to diamond, but when youre talking about getting from diamond to masters, i believe it to be more about game sense and appropriate decision making, as well as some small micro things. This is the reason 1v1 is SO much different from team games. in 1v1 it's ALL up to you, YOU have to scout, YOU have to respond appropriately. as it stands youre appearing to blame the fact that youre not masters on other people. ergo the way to avoid this is to just man up and 1v1.
Yours truly,
a former like minded member of the TL community
All the best with 1v1s, yea its scary as hell, but its such a rush.
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One thing I've been doing when playing with completely random teammates as protoss is doing an 8 double-gate into zealot/templar or zealot/void ray. It beats any 1-gate core build (obviously, although I wouldn't use it in 1v1), and many zerg openers as well, and can deal some damage to terran if he's excessively greedy (tech labs before units etc).
This pressure immediately puts the aggression factor on your team's side, and encourages your teammates to also attack. Once they are in "attack mode" you can take the chance to grab an expansion and macro a bit.
The build I use is something like this:
8 pylon (return and mine 1 trip)
8 gate (return and mine 1 trip)
8 gate (create a 1-gap wall for your zealot to wall off if possible).
8 probe (chrono)
9 probe
10 zealot (chrono)
12 zealot (queue on the first gate, then chrono)
14 zealot (2nd gate)
16 pylon @100minerals
16 zealot
zealots until you feel like transitioning...
2 gas + cybercore (+6 on gas)
Citadel
warp gate
zealot charge
- Use your chronos either on zealot charge or your gateways, NOT warp gate unless you are 100% sure you'll do a proxy timing as it finishes. Prefer zealot charge though unless you KNOW you won't be needing charge for the next time X. Usually I chrono zealot charge hard until about half way, and then if I don't think I'll be in combat I save chrono for double forge or chrono my units.
Expand
Double Forge
+2-4 gates
Voids or Temps
chrono double forge until maxed.
If you prefer zerg I highly recommend executing my 26 speedling expand ZvZ build. In 4v4 there will be an open wall somewhere. Split the lings up if it's a shared base and go to down on at least two players, targeting as many workers as possible.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192260
edit: if you play T, I also very highly recommend doing some kind of mass bio aggression with emphasis on upgrades and massing Orbitals. Here's a replay of me winning 1v4 (although the other 7 players in this game were pretty bad).
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/6009/_Bohemian_NothingWithU_Gibson_vs___KIMKEUNHONG_Michael
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The mentality behind team games is aggression. If the aggression is timed well, the opponents will either lose or be very far behind. Team games will teach you how to be aggressive and time your attacks with others, but it will teach you nothing about 1v1 timings and understanding the metagame that is 1v1. It simply won't.
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On March 15 2011 06:40 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 06:22 Westy wrote:On March 15 2011 06:17 salito wrote:
Playing team games isn't going to help you conquer your fear of 1v1. It'll just cause you to play more team games.
As far as 4v4 rt strategy goes, you can only do so much as one man. Just tell your team to rush at the 7-9 minute mark. On the contrary, working my way down from 4v4 to 1v1 can only make my transition into 1v1 easier, therefore, helping me conquer my fear of 1v1. I struggle with 1v1's mentally as all my gaming life I have played the team based game of counter strike. Playing team games won't help you transition to 1s because the strategies and maps are completely different. If anything, it'll make your transition harder because you won't have practiced hardly any 1v1 strategies and won't know what to do against each matchup on each map.
my friend prefers team matches over 1v1, he ended up getting diamond and then did ~20 1v1 games and got diamond. when masters came out he became top 8 master really really fast (1st place) in all team brackets and then in 1v1 he win traded up to masters since he didn't like the bracket. Then when leagues were locked and there were new icons he just decided to dominate everyone in 1v1 since he wanted that icon and got top 8 in his masters division and ended up being top 8 in all masters (probably would have gotten 1st if he cared about 1v1).
Honestly after seeing 3.5k masters protoss make a random timing of 9 gates w/ charge and +1 armor off 2 bases without even scouting the terran and then attacking into a meching terran, after which going stalker HT and attacking down a ramp into a planetary fortress + seige tanks with his HTs stuck behind stalkers... I've decided progamers are amazing at this game and the majority of masters players are not special
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If you're playing 4v4 because you fear 1v1, you should consider playing FFA instead.
4v4 is really about strong early attack, and not losing your army to multiple army.
Another huge problem is that bnet wants you to have 50% victory, and you will end playing versus arranged team, or versus 3 arranged who play 4v4 so even with a good early strategy it might not work because they will defend in common.
Other posts already give advice, try to convice your teammate attack or try to setup a plan.
As protoss if you don't cannon rush or 2 gate, i suggest DT, because you will get huge map control, if you know how to split DT and how to punish them if they leave the base.
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There are more similarities between WC3 1v1 and SC2 1v1 than there is between SC2 1v1 and SC2 team games.
Just saying what everybody knows, except maybe you.
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On March 15 2011 06:14 eXwOn wrote:
Here's what many people do when trying to get into masters 4v4/3v3:
They get two team members, that counts as 4v4 random.
Generally speaking if one person can hold on long enough to get 12 barracks 2 bases without the other teammates dying, it's good game. Marines imo are OP in team games.
With the new patch you can't play team games with less than the required amount of players... Eg. 2 players in a party can't play 3v3.
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My advise,
You do the first push, this is a good thing to do as it will motive your team mates to attack aswell
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As long as you coordinate with your team mates you should be fine considering all the different match ups, maps etc that you can get in 4v4. Don't be a dick by not adapting to the team gameplan, like when your teammates want to go for an early push and you just go fast expanding.
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On March 15 2011 06:17 salito wrote:
Playing team games isn't going to help you conquer your fear of 1v1. It'll just cause you to play more team games.
As far as 4v4 rt strategy goes, you can only do so much as one man. Just tell your team to rush at the 7-9 minute mark.
I have to disagree with you on that , just like the person who posted , I used to have a fear of going on 1v1 ladder because too many people tell new players to just play the campaign , do the challenges then go to 1v1 ladder , this may work for some people but for others it doesn't , what the person posting is doing will actually help him alot if he actually focuses on learning build orders and macro.
However once anyone who plays team games decides to play 1v1s , there will be a slight difficulty coping with timings and this is something everyone has to work on , but over all I think it's a very good step.
plus if you actually play team games , you would know that rushing 7-9 isn't the best strategy , alot of people already posted very good advise so I won't repeat .
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On April 09 2011 18:14 35spike1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 06:14 eXwOn wrote:
Here's what many people do when trying to get into masters 4v4/3v3:
They get two team members, that counts as 4v4 random.
Generally speaking if one person can hold on long enough to get 12 barracks 2 bases without the other teammates dying, it's good game. Marines imo are OP in team games. With the new patch you can't play team games with less than the required amount of players... Eg. 2 players in a party can't play 3v3.
Do you mean future patch or current patch? Because I do it all the time.
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Instead of doing team games, play 1v1 custom games with friends. If you don't have any friends your level just look around. There are so many places to get a random person your skill level to practice 1v1 with. I don't understand what's scary about playing 1v1 ladder.
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On March 15 2011 08:12 underdawg wrote:
random tip: pay attention to who is NOT attacking from the other team. because he's massing collosi or void rays.
Or mutas, or carriers, or thors, or battlecruisers. In 4v4 shared base maps always expect 1 person (probably the guy in the back) to go pure t3 with mass upgrades. Critical masses of 3-3 thors are practically unbeatable with marine support from a teammate.
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4 Zergs: 2 go 7 roach rush, 1 goes 14 gas --> 14 pool 21 hatch --> mass speedling, other goes 14 gas 14 pool speedling with 6 banelings as soon as your baneling nest finishes. Basically from a 14 gas opening your speed finishes around the time roaches from a 7 roach rush are halfway through the map. Its such an amazing strat if you can find 3 zergs who know the build.
Or you go 3 Zergs and add a protoss so you have some semblence of anti air =/
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In my opinion, 3v3/4v4 is good for those people who haven't quite decided what race they want to play. I just played random for about a hundred games to get a feel for how the mechanics of each race worked.
As for the transition from team to 1v1, I was platinum 3v3 but I was a Bronze player. Team games definitely help you get more comfortable with your race but the mindset, play style, and strategies are so totally different that very little carries over from teams to 1v1. Mechanics are so much more important in 1v1 because if you screw up, nobody is there to carry you.
I'd definitely suggest that if you've already decided on your race, you just take the plunge and start playing. The hardest part is getting started, you're so nervous you'll screw up (and you will screw up, everybody does). It's just a matter of getting over that nervousness and learning one or two builds to use against each race and focusing on mechanics. If you watch your replays, see what you did wrong, learn from it, and just keep going at it, there's no doubt that you will advance steadily (I was bronze in January and am now currently Diamond).
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high level 4v4 is completely broken. at least from what ive seen its mostly teams of 3 zergs and one protoss with all the zergs going mass ten pool speedling and the toss going 4 gate stalker. but other than that 4v4 can be enjoyable as long as you dont encounter those cheese teams with 90% win ratios. If you can get past early game cheese 4v4 becomes like a normal game
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From my experience, the best thing you can do in 3v3 or 4v4 games is convince everyone on your team to do a 6 minute timing push. That way you don't sacrifice much economy, and you have enough time to build up a decent army. With your initial army united that early, you should be able to take one or two down and the rest should be cake. The only thing that's going to stop you is heavy turtling or if they happen to unite their army at the same time. Or cheese
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Also - study the maps and decide on a strategy based on what you find.
As a Terran I tend to do lots of MMM "sharking" on District 10, Outpost and Megaton - but its completely impossible on Extinction. By "sharking" I mean constantly moving around and snipe stuff while avoiding direct head-on battle with the opponents main army/armies. If I can keep it up and deny 2-3 expos, I've pretty much given my team a good position.
But I must agree with RedMosquito - some arranged 4v4 teams out there have found pretty unbeatable builds (and probably had a lot of practice executing them). But there are still plenty of 4v4 matches that are fun to play with random teams. Hope it stays that way for a while longer...
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EPT
