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Russian Federation266 Posts
On March 12 2011 17:13 Nothingtosay wrote:
A lot of these comments don't make sense. Tanks, vikings, colossi, these things all come latter in the game you're ignoring the word EARLY. I specifically said early because later in the game you can almost always afford to have two forges running at once.
Define EARLY. Define your build. Define your lategame plan. Define the map. Define what you scouted from the T. And then you might just get a clear answer what is better in this situation.
I stand on my point. If you have a good reason - get the armor. If you just want to upgrade from 1 forge - get weapons first.
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I find that defending an expansion with early +1/+2 armor chargelots and sentries is ridiculously effective against early bio pushes.
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On March 12 2011 16:30 Tsabo wrote:
All the theorycraft is worthless realy. I mean you didn't account for the fact that with +1 it only takes 2 zealot attacks and 1 stalker shot to kill a marine insted of 2 zealot + 2 stalker. Or maybe its a hurt marine, what then?
IMO this "amount of hits" concept is greatly overrated by many.
Armor is great against marines, but absolutly worthless against tanks. Weapons are allways good. You should just upgrade weapons or bouth at the same time, unless you have a very good reason to get armor with your build.
so theory crafting is a waste of time because you can't account for every single factor including every possible integer of unit health? perhaps you need to look up what theory crafting means.
And also, if that's the case wtf are any of us doing here anyway.
"hey you think if built more zealots at time xx I can get more templars out when I need them"
"theory crafting is pointless nub, just get +1 atk you'll be fine"
well shoot, guess i can take teamliquid out of my book marks, thanks tsabo!!
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On March 12 2011 18:16 Guppers wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 16:30 Tsabo wrote:
All the theorycraft is worthless realy. I mean you didn't account for the fact that with +1 it only takes 2 zealot attacks and 1 stalker shot to kill a marine insted of 2 zealot + 2 stalker. Or maybe its a hurt marine, what then?
IMO this "amount of hits" concept is greatly overrated by many.
Armor is great against marines, but absolutly worthless against tanks. Weapons are allways good. You should just upgrade weapons or bouth at the same time, unless you have a very good reason to get armor with your build. so theory crafting is a waste of time because you can't account for every single factor including every possible integer of unit health? perhaps you need to look up what theory crafting means. And also, if that's the case wtf are any of us doing here anyway. "hey you think if built more zealots at time xx I can get more templars out when I need them" "theory crafting is pointless nub, just get +1 atk you'll be fine" well shoot, guess i can take teamliquid out of my book marks, thanks tsabo!!
Care to explain where I should look it up? FYI it is not even a real word.
And you would likely do yourself a favor by discontinuing visiting Team Liqid. Since you fail to grasp the meaning of a post, instead reading it as a sequence of unrelated sentances, likely you will only end up with incomplete and incorrect info.
I mean I even made it stand out. There is little reason in discussing how many hits it takes to kill with and without an upgrade due to the presence of uncontrolable and/or unpredictable factors in a battle.
Instead a less arrogant version of you would bring himself to "theorycrafting" strategy. Such as in a post just above yours:
I find that defending an expansion with early +1/+2 armor chargelots and sentries is ridiculously effective against early bio pushes.
Clearly this person doesn't care exactly much how many hits it takes a marine to kill a zealot with +1 armor and a guardian shield. Instead he thinks about his build, what units he makes, what transitions he can do.
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Theory - "a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. "
craft - "to build or create"
Tsabo writes - "All the theorycraft is worthless realy. I mean you didn't account for the fact that with +1 it only takes 2 zealot attacks and 1 stalker shot to kill a marine insted of 2 zealot + 2 stalker. Or maybe its a hurt marine, what then?"
this is the first thing you said so I'm not taking it out of context.
theorycrafting (creating an idea in contrast to the standard) is worthless because (insert a true statement about said standard)
this game gets better and advances because people choose to play outside of the norms until they happen upon something that blows the game out of the water and everyone enters a new understanding of the game.
so he may be right about +1 armor and he may not be right. But in no way is his theory crafting useless. It gives people a chance to look at his numbers and get some ideas of their own and try it out before making some sort of absolute statement like.. um.. shoot idk I'm bad at coming up with good examples, maybe this one Tsabo writes-"You should just upgrade weapons or bouth at the same time"
so evidentally +1 atk is so mind numbingly common knowledge that crafting a theory that doesn't get it first is worthless "realy" because, come on bro like you know.. attack is good and stuff
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Russian Federation266 Posts
Wow, you went even further, cliping my sentances in half. Good job.
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If you're up against mass bio in PvT then I agree, armour is the safer bet. But there's allot more units then gateway-barracks, even in early game. What if he goes banshee marine, and you want to transition after into phoenix-colossi? (armour might be good as well, but it's a little more indepth thinking).
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If you are planning on colossus get +attack otherwise armour. If you are a boss be like tyler and get double forge.
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On March 12 2011 19:44 eXwOn wrote:
If you're up against mass bio in PvT then I agree, armour is the safer bet. But there's allot more units then gateway-barracks, even in early game. What if he goes banshee marine, and you want to transition after into phoenix-colossi? (armour might be good as well, but it's a little more indepth thinking).
Versus a banshee marine army armor is clearly better than attack because
A You will be fighting lots of marines
B Banshees attack twice
@ Tsabo early game is before t2 units start generally rolling out, as people are securing their fast expansions or executing their 1 base play. I don't see why I should have to define it. It varies from game to game.
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Armor helps more than weapons against marines. Weapons are better otherwise. This was all very obvious.
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Or you could just go dual forges, like Tyler did vs Jinro in their showmatch. It looked very safe, and it set up a devastating 2/0/2 timing push. I know that that kind of circumvents the entire argument of "which is better, attack or armor?", but maybe you don't have to choose?
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as a first upgrade unless you plan some specific +2 attack push, armor pretty much always beats attack.
armor HEAVILY cuts the marines dps which are the staple unit of evry early tvx. no matter if its a bio opening or a mech opening, you always have many marines and they always deal a big part of the damage.
a marine deals 4 dmg to +1 armor P hulls. with guardian shield that comes down to 2. thats nothing.
infact a friend of mine is experimenting with +1 armor zeal/sentry heavy timing attacks against 1/2rax expands and its quite scary when your rines do 2 dmg and your marauders do 6 vs zealots.stuff just doesnt die.
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I thought it was common knowledge how effective armor upgrades + guardian shield is vs T. Plus if you simply search upgrades quite a few topics will pop up discussing this. Someone actually did a pretty long guide on all the +1's for each race awhile back but i'm having trouble finding it.
Here it is:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187603
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I've never read a more confusing OP. When I don't double forge but am going gateway heavy I tend to emphasize armor because they almost always get +1 attack first on their bio.
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Canada13379 Posts
On March 12 2011 17:16 Whiplash wrote:
I find that it is often good to get + armor earlier on in the game unless you are going for some type of timing attack with +2 on colossus, and if your going templars you want armor over attack 100% of the time. Also note that +armor is always better against a marine heavy army but generally terran get more marauders then marines as the game progresses due to the potency of storm and colossus.
Agreed, though I feel that double upgrades are even more effective when the opponent has expanded and you have good scouting to make sure he isnt moving out and are able to fight in chokes whenever possible.
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Since the only reason to get forge in PvT are upgrades (cause cannons just die to everything) its better to just go double forge and get oth upgrades ;>
It's a bad idea only when you dont plan to add twilight council in the near future.
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On March 12 2011 13:18 OriginalBeast wrote:
Choose +1 attack if there are some kind of priority targets that effect your build, like you need to kill vikings with stalkers if you go colossus
Choose +1 armor if you are being put under a bunch of pressure with marine marauder.
Liquid tyler double forges... just sayin...
I dunno if you watched GSL, but Hongunprime was first to popularize Double Forging in Season3 GSL vs TSL Rain. (Game1 to be specific). His unit control was crap in this game but this build was just spectacular. Discussed it here a while ago while i was very curious about the style http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=175847
Also, LiquidTyler typically 2-3Gate Robo to Double Forges, where as Hongun uses 1Gate FE Double Forge. Both cool styles.
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EPT
