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Hey guys. If anyone watched the hongun vs tslrain series, aside from hongun playing badly, you will remember honguns double forge build for g1.
http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens3/vod/1455
Watching this build against rain, it seems incredibly solid. There was never a moment where hongun looked like he was in any danger. He put double forge after his 1gate FE and made lots of stalkers and zealots.
What do you guys think are the significant downsides of going double forge? After hongun held off the first attack, his gateway army could equalize the infantry army of the terran, something that is usually the reverse.
It seems this strategy destroys MMM, but is so much safer because you don't have to use collosi.
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Ow c'mon this isn't that big topic to talk about this.
Cons are easy - you are behind by 300 minerals (2 forges), 100 minerals 100 gas (melee), x minerals x gas (armor). And you will be behind until the upgrade finish, and in fight you regain these ~500/200. It's around 4 stalkers, or 2 sentries and 3 zealots.
Havne't seen the game but terran should have attacked after upgrades started - just when toss was these 4 stalkers behind.
I am usually making +1/+1 slings\blings with as few roaches as possible at beggining and i find them supper effective vs anything.
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I don't really like the idea. Gateway units are strong in early game against bio, but become very weak as the army sizes scale. P has enough resources to defend while teching or to defend while upgrading. +1/+1 zealot stalker is crap against mid-game MMM, but +0/+0 zealot stalker collosus is good against mid-game MMM. IMO, T mid-game MMM is too strong to get greedy w/ upgrades before getting AoE damage.
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If you let the bio ball grow enough in size and you don't incorporate colossus or storm it doesn't matter if you are 2/2 and he's 1/1 Zealots melt and then you are left with a bunch of stalkers that explode at the sight of a marauder and a bunch of sentries doing 7-8 dps @ 100 gas each.
The worst thing terran can do if he sees you doing this is attack before reaching critical mass or incorporating 2 ghosts. Which rain did on that game.
Also... until terran sees a robotics bay. He doesn't have to spend enormous amounts of gas on vikings that can go to ghosts to counter the imminent templars that you would be a fool not to get considering you have a high gateway count, a twilight council and 1 robotics facility at most.
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Maybe it would be decent if you went for double ups after you got to templar, but early game it isn't worth it at all.
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On December 11 2010 07:54 brainpower wrote:
Maybe it would be decent if you went for double ups after you got to templar, but early game it isn't worth it at all.
The whole point of the build is so that you can live long enough to get high templars without using Colossi. If HongUn's units weren't 1/1, and then again 2/2 when Rain did his timing pushes he would have lost 100% The upgrades replace the colossi, in making the gateway units strong enough to stand up to a bio ball. Also if you noticed, HongUn made sure that every couple of minutes he was engaged in a fight with Rain, just so that his bioball doesn't reach a critical mass which can walk over his upgrades.
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I feel one forge is plenty, since armor seems so much better than attack vs T. I`ve had battles where my Templar all get EMPed before a single storm, but thanks to my large number of 0/3 chargelots I`ve won easily anyways, despite being about 10 food behind in army size. Zealots with +armor and guarian shield are insane, they`re basically immune to EMP (the Zealots, not the Sentries) and take almost no damage.
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I get 2 forges (sometimes 3, rofl) very frequently in all matchups, but really only when I feel safe. IMO 1 is usually enough and you can get 3/3 by late game if you use your chronoboost well.
It also feels very manly and pro to chrono 3 forges at once, don't forget that.
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I like this idea. I'm not sure how exactly it should be implemented though, because the problem with colossus builds is that there are build specifically designed to beat them. But if you go templar you really need your zealots to not instantly evaporate when they charge in.
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On December 12 2010 08:06 Geovu wrote:
I get 2 forges (sometimes 3, rofl) very frequently in all matchups, but really only when I feel safe. IMO 1 is usually enough and you can get 3/3 by late game if you use your chronoboost well.
It also feels very manly and pro to chrono 3 forges at once, don't forget that.
I wish i was placed against people that do this so i can get free wins
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Assuming a pure Zealot/Sentry army and that you're using Guardian Shield, +1 armour would reduce Marine damage by 1/3 and Marauder damage by 1/7 (at least on the Zealots). If 1/3 of the resources he's spent on Marines combined with 1/7 of the resources he's spent on Marauders comes to more than you've spent on getting the armour upgrade, I'd consider it a fantastic choice every time (not to mention it gives the added bonus of being prepared for Banshees by default). I'm not so sure about how to justify +1 damage to myself, since it doesn't change how many Zealot swings it takes to kill a Marine (probably takes 1 less swing for a Marauder, can't be bothered verifying), and you're spending an entire 150 more minerals on getting that 2nd Forge. I also like to think that this would lead nicely into Zealot/Templar play in the mid game as opposed to the usual Robo play, since a fast Twilight Council would allow you to get +2 armour, cutting that Marine damage down to the minimum of 1 per shot on a Zealot, and letting you get the Charge upgrade.
Or something. Yeah.
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2 forges IMO is a waste of resources. In PvT Protoss NEEDS to get to Tier 3 units getting a double forge severely delays your ability to tech up quickly. One forge getting +1 armor and then +1 attack should take a long enough time where you can tech to Collosus or HT by then, getting a double forge wouldn't be so bad when your on 2-3 bases .
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
On December 11 2010 04:13 k43r wrote:
Ow c'mon this isn't that big topic to talk about this.
Cons are easy - you are behind by 300 minerals (2 forges), 100 minerals 100 gas (melee), x minerals x gas (armor). And you will be behind until the upgrade finish, and in fight you regain these ~500/200. It's around 4 stalkers, or 2 sentries and 3 zealots.
Havne't seen the game but terran should have attacked after upgrades started - just when toss was these 4 stalkers behind.
I am usually making +1/+1 slings\blings with as few roaches as possible at beggining and i find them supper effective vs anything.
ur talking bad man, how will u be behind making upgrades? as i know Robo+robotic+collosus+rage
cost way more than +1/+1 and ur early game mid game late game will be strong enough
im trying to do this in PvT like in SC1, if u add Guardian Shield to your 1+/+1 army that really good
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i think people should watch the game first cause most of the responses here just make no sense if you actually saw the game.
no in topic... well i tried it a couple times (im not a great player in any way or form) and its really good BUT only if you are far from your enemy because if not most of the timing pushes will be at your door when you are just 1/1 and either kill you or cripple you right there.
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Um, while I don't necessarily endorse double forging, after a week break due to finals I came back to play a pvt today to try it out. ANd while the game is obviously awful, considering the army battles, I feel the double forge upgrades definitely made all the difference.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/115073-1v1-protoss-scrap-station
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I hate to turbo-bump this, but I only just now discovered this build about a week ago. This build seems incredibly flexible and really forces the match into the late game. Colossi and storm are both just such huge investments that take a while to show returns. Just massing the shit out of gateway units, getting charge quickly, and chronoing upgrades seems to shut down a lot of early-mid game terran aggression.
Think about this: When do tosses lose most pvts? Either in the early game to 1 base plays or in the early-mid game when storm/colossus tech hasn't been fully realized; maybe you just have 1-2 colossi without range or a few templars with storm but no amulet. To compound this, if terran scouts properly they can hard-counter your tech pretty fiercely. If you went storm, this forces you into a very defensive position because it's going to be very hard to attack while keeping your templars safe from emp. If you went colossi, you "have" to get a bunch of stalkers, which are super weak against marauders or tanks. You also give the terran a big timing window to attack you while you have few gateway units and are en-route to colossi or storm. This is a full on reversal from the normal games, you're very strong when terran is normally doing their timing attack which would be arriving when your tech is still weak. Remember, the original kcd fast expansion build that came out in august first used a fast double forge, citadel, 6-8 gates, and forewent a robotics completely.
With the double forge gateway units+immortal build, you're going to be able to go toe to toe with MMM and don't have any particular timing vulnerabilities and can even get aggressive if terran overextends himself! Zealots with armor, guardian shield, and charge are very tough for terrans to take down. AOE damage from storm or colossi only becomes totally necessary when terran has a shit ton of medivacs with a lot of energy. You can relatively reliably secure a third with upgraded gateway units and immortals, then worry about tech. With 3 gas it's much easier to mix or switch techs so that a handful of ghosts or vikings can't completely ruin your day. You can of course get colossus or storm off of just 2 bases after using this opening, and both become much more effective when you already have 2/2 upgrades. With this build, you already have both a robo and a citadel. With an observer you can spot his production structures and react with either storm or colossus. It sucks when you blindly build a robo bay and it just so happens he has two starports with reactors or when you build a templar archives and his ghost academy is already up. It's that much easier to aim storms and feedbacks when your zealots and gateway units can tank for a few more seconds, and colossi get a huge benefit from attack upgrades.
Finally, it's a little easier to micro. It's probably a little more sensitive to forcefield/guardianshield micro, but not having to aim storms and manage colossi makes it so that you don't have those critical mistakes to make and lose you the game.
Here's an illustration: http://sc2rep.net/replays/starcraft-2-replay-p-liquidtyler-vs-t-rootdrewbie-xelnaga-caverns-01-28-2011
Nony forgoes immortals for some reason, possibly because drewbie went relatively light on immortals and had a lot of marines.
Thoughts?
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Stim micro owns any armor or attack upgrade you could get as protoss.
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On December 11 2010 08:11 Zephyr.Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 07:54 brainpower wrote:
Maybe it would be decent if you went for double ups after you got to templar, but early game it isn't worth it at all. The whole point of the build is so that you can live long enough to get high templars without using Colossi. If HongUn's units weren't 1/1, and then again 2/2 when Rain did his timing pushes he would have lost 100% The upgrades replace the colossi, in making the gateway units strong enough to stand up to a bio ball. Also if you noticed, HongUn made sure that every couple of minutes he was engaged in a fight with Rain, just so that his bioball doesn't reach a critical mass which can walk over his upgrades.
But end game you want both HT and colossi anyway. If you just use HT you run the risk of a clutch emp owning your whole army. If I were to hazard a guess it probably has more to do with a macro-based style, where the larger T1 army consistently throughout the game and lack of weak points of time due to teching allows to expand faster and more times.
edit: Ok just saw the game. Yeah pretty interesting. You still seem to have a "weak" point around when you are tossing down both forges and getting your first set of upgrades. I think he should've took his 3rd earlier however and leverage his army size.
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On December 11 2010 07:14 kcdc wrote:
I don't really like the idea. Gateway units are strong in early game against bio, but become very weak as the army sizes scale. P has enough resources to defend while teching or to defend while upgrading. +1/+1 zealot stalker is crap against mid-game MMM, but +0/+0 zealot stalker collosus is good against mid-game MMM. IMO, T mid-game MMM is too strong to get greedy w/ upgrades before getting AoE damage.
i agree with this
later on in the game when i get +1 armor and almost have +1 weapons i usually throw down a twilight and another forge, but i think putting them down earlier on is a stupid idea
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I do this build a lot and I find it is a great way to safely tech to templar.
Not sure why all these people who didn't even watch the gsl game, not to mention try the build, are theory crafting responses...
Obviously trading armies frequently so the bio ball never hits critical mass is key.
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EPT
