On February 01 2011 19:05 sleepingdog wrote: I've been thinking about this build A LOT recently, also did some testing, because I just hate colossi in PvT. Also the fact that tyler used it should convince the haters around here that it should be viable to a certain extent, no?
Hey sleepingdog, would you mind linking the game which Tyler used it, or tell me which match so I can find it, much appreciated!
I think more and more protoss are realizing that getting a twilight council before robo support bay is a safer and more versatile transition in PvT because you are less vulnerable to the various stim timing pushes. The double forge version of this is certainly viable.
On February 04 2011 11:10 Drowsy wrote: You have a shit ton of extra gas with this build which is getting dumped into sentries initially, building a robotics bay or a templar archives around the time you start your 2/2 upgrades or when your 3rd is secured (whichever is first) is an obvious choice with this build.
This was a revelation I had when trying this build. I'd expand, throw down the forges, and find I still had loads of gas, only needing to take 3rd and 4th gases later on. It might seem minor, but saving that 75 on the assimilator and 3 extra probes mining minerals is actually a substantial difference.
I usually throw up my 3rd gas around the time I'm putting my TC up I guess, because there's gonna be a big gas dump as +2/+2 + Charge is started all around the same time.
I'd rather get a 3rd has earlier for the sentries actually to prevent stim kiting, this makes good use of the 1/1 upgrades. Then you may or may not need the fourth gas for 2/2 dedpending on how many forcefields you used or how many sentries has been killed.
Latedi - I suppose it depends how you're getting there - I'm doing 2-gate robo expand into 3 or 4 gates with double forge. And I get my 2nd gas at 21 supply. So I have plenty of gas for lots of sentries without needing the 3rd for quite a while.
Well looking back, my unit composition was awful, I went something like Stalkers with 11 sentries just because of the gas surplus, there was no way for me to spend that kind of money and really fucked up my warpgate cycle, with soo many sentry warp ins, I couldn't get enough Zealots out (or at all really).
And I agree with the sentiment of taking your 3rd gas when you start twilight. I get my forth when I think its safe to start the H.Templar research.
The scary part for me right now is a massive marine marauder Medivac (w/ double engi bay upgrades) push before storm/amulet is finished, usually have to sacrifice my third when it happens
Dommk, I think the idea is that you're supposed to keep the pressure on Terran. With this style army trades are good because once the MMM ball gets too big, it's too powerful against gateway, upgrades or not. So attack and trade and keep both army sizes relatively smaller so you perform better against it.
On February 15 2011 02:11 Dommk wrote: Well looking back, my unit composition was awful, I went something like Stalkers with 11 sentries just because of the gas surplus, there was no way for me to spend that kind of money and really fucked up my warpgate cycle, with soo many sentry warp ins, I couldn't get enough Zealots out (or at all really).
And I agree with the sentiment of taking your 3rd gas when you start twilight. I get my forth when I think its safe to start the H.Templar research.
The scary part for me right now is a massive marine marauder Medivac (w/ double engi bay upgrades) push before storm/amulet is finished, usually have to sacrifice my third when it happens
You should be spending the gas on Immortals as well. Also I like to warp-in a few HT to build up energy while storm is researching. Even HT w/o storm are effective vs medivacs via feedback and you can morph them into archon afterwards if necessary.
On February 15 2011 02:30 Severedevil wrote: Gateway + Upgrades can clearly handle M&M, but Medivacs are still pretty overpowering.
Someone pointed out an interesting thing to me lately. A normal mm army has combat shield, conc shells, and stimpack, that's 250/250, or warp gate research and two upgrades. Or warp gate research and charge. Or warp gate research, hallucination and one upgrade.
I still believe that the key to beating mm is hallucinations more so than an attack upgrade though, I'd rather have armour (if he's marine heavy) and halu rather than armour and attack. If you have one sentry with full energy that's faking 4 zealots to soak up shots.
I think Feedback on the Medivacs is the answer. You don't have to mass Templars and buy Storm + Amulet to use it...
Well, if you have high templar already, I'd rather get it, I mean, feedback is great, buf if you're already that far on the tech path to it, I'd rather just spend that 200/200 to storm. I wouldn't want to spend 300/350 just for feedback and also 50/150 for every high templar just to feedback medivacs. I'd rather just get more upgrades then or charge.
I mean, remember that if you already have a council, charge is a looot cheaper than getting storm out, and on top of that it affects units you already should have plenty of. I get my council mainly for charge and decide on that if I want storm or not.
Someone pointed out an interesting thing to me lately. A normal mm army has combat shield, conc shells, and stimpack, that's 250/250, or warp gate research and two upgrades. Or warp gate research and charge. Or warp gate research, hallucination and one upgrade.
Eh, you really can't think of it that way, Barracks units are incredibly efficient and very cheap for their cost, also factor this in with mules vs chrono boost and it all becomes a kind of a mess.
Whoever said feedbacking the Medivacs, that was a great idea and it helped me a TON, the mid game Medivac timing that hits before storm I delt with pretty handily by warping in 7 templar and delaying storm, it really helped, especially when they archons morph started very early into the battle, they were merged in time for a second wave of gateway units to clean the bio ball.
Also, don't forget to make gateways , I was in the best position in the world when I lost a fight only to realize I was on 3 base with 8 gateways, you can really feel the 45second templar cooldown when you only have 8gates and 3k/3k trust-fund that you are desperately trying to spend..
I've also noticed, around about the time you should reach 100-120~ Pop, when you start researching charge, +2/+2, your minerals start to get out of hand and you really can't spend it because you spent your gas on upgrades, I've kinda always taken a third at that as my que to take a third, even if I don't think I can defend it
Oh yeah...don't keep your pop at 200/200..probably better to keep it at 185-195/200, I made the mistake of doing that and had a Terran drop me, which ended up doing a ton of damage...
But yeah, double forge has been working really well for me, if your opponent is behind/forgets/delays upgrades then it becomes one sided REALLY fast, 2/2 vs 2/2 is a good fight but 2/2 vs 1/0 is a complete rofl stomp, when your upgrades effect every unit, it really adds up quickly
this is a very strong build that has been my standard in PvT. A few points to note:
1) Don't expect zealots/stalkers with upgrades to go up against and MMM ball and win. You will need to have sentries for FF/Guardian shield as well as immortal to win. Guardian shield with +3 armor really really hurts marine DPS. Templars will be necessary as you approach 150+ food mark
2) Since your gateway units are strong, warp prisms should be used more frequently. Personally I like to have two - one that i keep with my main army so i can warp in reinforcements immediately without having to wait for a proxy pylon, and another to scout around and take out poorly protected expos
3) This is a terrible strategy against heavy hellion play. Unfortunately you will have to go back to colossi if they get out 15 or so hellions. On the plus side your colossi will benefit from the upgrades (unlike an MM to mech transition).
Tyler shows the build much better than hongun. In this game he's playing against 1 rax FE. Against more agressiv builds, i found that the built isn't that solid, especially in close positions.
I've been experimenting a lot w/ this build and I completely agree that the build is strong on longer distance maps where you can get an expo up earlier and also it's not great vs tank/hellion (pretty good vs marine/thor though). Its main strength is really in the fact that armor upgrades really dampens marine's insane DPS, zealot DPS from weapon upgrades scales nicely, and the ability to chrono out upgrades faster even if they go double engi bay.
Forge builds are quite strong against harass/drops I've noticed. Small medivac groups aren't nearly as scary or hard to defend when your units are that much more cost effective against T.
EPT
, I was in the best position in the world when I lost a fight only to realize I was on 3 base with 8 gateways, you can really feel the 45second templar cooldown when you only have 8gates and 3k/3k trust-fund that you are desperately trying to spend..
