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Krasso
Denmark74 Posts
If i do some kinda harrass (banshee/helion) im weak to early pushes. If i do standard 1-1-1 opening i dont get any harrass done which (as i understand it) is a very important part of TvT. Sorry if im not rly clear. This match-up just confuses me so badly and i wish there was this one build i could do that wasnt anything special and safe vs. almost everything. Like the 2rax expo is against toss for example. | ||
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Xursian
Canada94 Posts
If not, try to hide some units outside your base before the timing hits (should be right around you finish your nats CC and send out as you go to make the bunkers. with this back flank units you want to wait for the tanks to unsige to snipe and send reinforce into it. if he's doing a reinfoce contain, get some tanks yourself and/or try to use that flanking army to do counter damages (like sniping off some things in his base / killing reinforcements). I got a few replays of me beating this kind of pressure/build if your interested, It's not masters level play, but they are high diamonds. I think the idea should be the same... Generally in my experiance the counter attacking works nicely because they have a few tanks and have to slow push into your bunkers that can be repaired. they have marines usually not maradards, its hard for them to break you regardless if they try a base trade, and worst senario you lose your nats workers and snuff his attack with reinforcements... | ||
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Mofisto
United Kingdom585 Posts
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The Irate Turk
285 Posts
I like to 3rax and get a scouting reaper just to see what they are doing (I'm not at a level where I can scout with it while killing 3-4 scvs, it's more important to scout their gasses and factory/ starport). If you see a tech/ 2 gasses and no bunker/ weak bunker you can have a go at attacking. If you see a starport, throw down a quick engy bay and get a couple of turrets. If you keep the pressure on them and apply the right timings, you can expand and camp outside to prevent them setting up their second easily. Meanwhile you have your expo up and running and get a couple more rax and some starports of your own. I find that banshees really disorientate tank users. It does boil down to a viking fest if the game goes long because you need the air superiority. I find that a well executed banshee viking (with a strong ground army) will beat a tank viking composition. You also want to drop and abuse the mobility of your army while exploiting the immobility of theirs. By the time they get their second up you can be working on a third. This isn't easy though; I mess up all the time and lose because I suck, but if you have seen that game where Boxer beats Jinro on Blazing Sands you will see how you can beat a tank heavy T without making any of your own. The worst thing to do vs a tanking player if you arent getting any is just to let him march up to your front door and deploy. | ||
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Buff345
United States323 Posts
I'd suggest just using 111 banshees and getting an engi bay then an expansion. 7 mins cloaked banshees or hellions can be in your base so beware. Also, probably a good idea to usually build a bunker. As you do this, I'd suggest you watch alot of replays and to not be scared of tvt. After time put into it and the right perspective you will get the hang of it and discover that there is a large amount of freedom in tvt. It's probably the most dynamic matchup; its also probably one of the hardest. Anyways, thats all imo. Good luck with your efforts on improving Edit: Also, i would suggest examining your macro. A general rule that i feel applies to most tvt matches is that he with the most shit wins. Obviously if you are terrible at control this probably doesnt apply to you really, but you get the idea | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
For some time i loved the thors push against siege tanks, its fun if you take a medivac to lift them, but the micro effort is a little heavy. But in general you can just use your own siege tanks even if he has vision, as long as your tanks point on the choke he can't advance. And you can simple use a building for your vision as one viking would take ages to get it down. Also its easy to beat more vikings then you have if you have one damaged building floating around. PS: i think up to diamond the easiest thing to do is a hellion drop. you can kill everything that he reproduces (yes even tanks, well if he lands a viking maybe not, but then he should not fall for a hellion drop while containing). I think in platin/diamond region (before there was master) 80% of the terrans who did a contain lost around 20-30 workers due to this drop. (i leave a siege tank in my main against those drops, gives you enoug time to react) | ||
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Krasso
Denmark74 Posts
But havei understood this right, if you do 1-1-1 in TvT, you should also be doing some kind of harrass? I feel like 1-1-1 is too weak (against some strats like 3rax) of a strat if you just use it to expand. What do you guys think about that? On February 22 2011 21:16 Buff345 wrote: I used to have problems with siege tank contains, but i found that opening banshee is an effective way to get an expansion up and deal with any early attacks. I used it to masters, but after i became more comfortable with the matchup and realized how to beat it otherwise i usually just 1 rax fe now. I'd suggest just using 111 banshees and getting an engi bay then an expansion. 7 mins cloaked banshees or hellions can be in your base so beware. Also, probably a good idea to usually build a bunker. As you do this, I'd suggest you watch alot of replays and to not be scared of tvt. After time put into it and the right perspective you will get the hang of it and discover that there is a large amount of freedom in tvt. It's probably the most dynamic matchup; its also probably one of the hardest. Anyways, thats all imo. Good luck with your efforts on improving Edit: Also, i would suggest examining your macro. A general rule that i feel applies to most tvt matches is that he with the most shit wins. Obviously if you are terrible at control this probably doesnt apply to you really, but you get the idea Should i get cloak with all this? | ||
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Cibron
Sweden253 Posts
It depends on if you mean a *really-ASAP-early* siege push or something with more than 2 tanks. For the raelly early one I usually do fine with stimmed marines and a little micro. Siege tech is not critical early game. Just make sure you dont engage him in your own ramp/expo-choke or when he is already sieged (in other words, avoid the splash damage). For the later push you just have to get tanks yourself OR you can do the iEchoic build and skip the tankgame. It should be noted that I NEVER fast expand in TvT because of the damn siegepushes/drops. Maybe some masters guy can tell me how? | ||
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Cibron
Sweden253 Posts
On February 22 2011 20:19 Xursian wrote: I do a FE and place 2 offset bunkers at the front, since that early 1-2 tank marine push comes around that time. How do you defend/survive a drop of 2tanks and a medivac of marines in your main before you have siegetech? There's no way youll have the minerals to tech far after FE and two bunkers?? Even if he goes frontal he can take the bunkers out fast since unsieged tanks outrange bunkers. I've always dreamt of surviving after FE in TvT but I just cant get it to work. If not, try to hide some units outside your base before the timing hits (should be right around you finish your nats CC and send out as you go to make the bunkers. with this back flank units you want to wait for the tanks to unsige to snipe and send reinforce into it. I like the idea but people tend to keep the marine blob ON the siegetanks. Still stimmed marauders might actually manage to snipe the tanks before they die... | ||
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Mr_Kyo
United States269 Posts
If you open bio, then it should be easy as tanks aren't good in small numbers (and moving across the map). Otherwise, have a tank of your own. | ||
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ScrubS
Netherlands436 Posts
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Krasso
Denmark74 Posts
On February 23 2011 00:33 Cibron wrote: Hi Krasso, It depends on if you mean a *really-ASAP-early* siege push or something with more than 2 tanks. For the raelly early one I usually do fine with stimmed marines and a little micro. Siege tech is not critical early game. Just make sure you dont engage him in your own ramp/expo-choke or when he is already sieged (in other words, avoid the splash damage). For the later push you just have to get tanks yourself OR you can do the iEchoic build and skip the tankgame. It should be noted that I NEVER fast expand in TvT because of the damn siegepushes/drops. Maybe some masters guy can tell me how? So you think i should always get stim early? 'Cus there aint much time to react and get stim as the counter when the game is on SoW. ^^ On February 23 2011 00:52 ScrubS wrote: Hey Krasso, we could play some time? I am in the same situation as myself --> ~3k terran with bronze TvT skills lol. Feel free to add me: ScrubS.301 Yeah of course.  Im down if you wanna play tonight?  | ||
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Cibron
Sweden253 Posts
On February 23 2011 01:01 Krasso wrote: So you think i should always get stim early? 'Cus there aint much time to react and get stim as the counter when the game is on SoW. ^^ I tend to go stim before siegetech unless he expands. Helps out a lot because it allows me to stop the first siegepush easily and do those nasty drops as soon as i have medivacs. | ||
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Krasso
Denmark74 Posts
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On February 22 2011 12:14 Krasso wrote: This is kinda why i find it like rock-paper-scissors: If i do some kinda harrass (banshee/helion) im weak to early pushes. If i do standard 1-1-1 opening i dont get any harrass done which (as i understand it) is a very important part of TvT. Sorry if im not rly clear. This match-up just confuses me so badly and i wish there was this one build i could do that wasnt anything special and safe vs. almost everything. Like the 2rax expo is against toss for example. Krasso, Be less specific in your approach. The reason why you feel like you're getting conflicting information, or that it is "Rock Paper Scissors" is because everyone is offering you advice that is too specific in my opinion. Day9 is awesome, but what he says is not always SC2 canon. He is high level, for sure, but even he makes a million assumptions while he gives advice and makes commentary. I'm just going to offer some basic perspectives that help me in this match up. • Know your openers perfectly. Then, in early game decide whether or not you want to be the defender or the attacker. • Stay in constant contact with your opponent. • Try to avoid things like, "If he does A, I will do B," and gravitate more towards, "He is doing A, I'm already doing B, what can I do right now to deal with A?" • Don't worry so much about whether or not your decision is the "right one," rather put all your concentration and focus on making sure you execute your decision perfectly. • TvT is an insane matchup, but as long as you focus on execution you should be able to read your opponent and counter him with whatever you want. • Try to learn what type of advantages are being created, how to exploit them, and how to set them up. For instance, an early Siege Tank contain is a positional advantage. This leaves the door open for you to have a material advantage. • Be decisive with your recon. If you see fast tanks, expect a push. If you see a tech lab starport, expect banshees. If you see three rax, expect a stim attack. Doesn't matter if you're right. What matters is that you are expecting something directly related to what you scouted. • In a tank stalemate think of it exactly like that - A stalemate; neither opponent can win. Think of two locked pawns. Neither can move. Neither can kill each other. So, what do you do? You can reinforce the pawn and hope your reinforcements are better, or you can attack somewhere else. • TvT becomes the most volatile when there is a tank stalemate. Is winning that stalemate the right move? Probably not. I don't know if any of this will help you. Maybe you're looking for really specific advice, but I think that the above should help you feel more confident in the match up. | ||
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Mwentworth56
146 Posts
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Ponyo
United States1231 Posts
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Krasso
Denmark74 Posts
On February 23 2011 02:58 TimeSpiral wrote: Krasso, Be less specific in your approach. The reason why you feel like you're getting conflicting information, or that it is "Rock Paper Scissors" is because everyone is offering you advice that is too specific in my opinion. Day9 is awesome, but what he says is not always SC2 canon. He is high level, for sure, but even he makes a million assumptions while he gives advice and makes commentary. I'm just going to offer some basic perspectives that help me in this match up. • Know your openers perfectly. Then, in early game decide whether or not you want to be the defender or the attacker. • Stay in constant contact with your opponent. • Try to avoid things like, "If he does A, I will do B," and gravitate more towards, "He is doing A, I'm already doing B, what can I do right now to deal with A?" • Don't worry so much about whether or not your decision is the "right one," rather put all your concentration and focus on making sure you execute your decision perfectly. • TvT is an insane matchup, but as long as you focus on execution you should be able to read your opponent and counter him with whatever you want. • Try to learn what type of advantages are being created, how to exploit them, and how to set them up. For instance, an early Siege Tank contain is a positional advantage. This leaves the door open for you to have a material advantage. • Be decisive with your recon. If you see fast tanks, expect a push. If you see a tech lab starport, expect banshees. If you see three rax, expect a stim attack. Doesn't matter if you're right. What matters is that you are expecting something directly related to what you scouted. • In a tank stalemate think of it exactly like that - A stalemate; neither opponent can win. Think of two locked pawns. Neither can move. Neither can kill each other. So, what do you do? You can reinforce the pawn and hope your reinforcements are better, or you can attack somewhere else. • TvT becomes the most volatile when there is a tank stalemate. Is winning that stalemate the right move? Probably not. I don't know if any of this will help you. Maybe you're looking for really specific advice, but I think that the above should help you feel more confident in the match up. Oh man, it really did! I'm definitely gonna read that post a bunch of times untill its stuck in my head ^_^. Now i guess i just have to learn some good TvT builds :o (which i dont have either) Thanks, im sure this is about what i was looking for, some general rules and ways to look at the match-up.Edit: But what is this supposed to mean exactly? • Stay in constant contact with your opponent. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On February 23 2011 05:53 Krasso wrote: Oh man, it really did! I'm definitely gonna read that post a bunch of times untill its stuck in my head ^_^. Now i guess i just have to learn some good TvT builds :o (which i dont have either) Thanks, im sure this is about what i was looking for, some general rules and ways to look at the match-up.Edit: But what is this supposed to mean exactly? I'm really glad you asked me to elaborate because that's probably one of the most important points in the whole post. I'm primarily referring to "visual contact." In any type of tactical operation it is imperative to never lose visual contact with the target (in this case, the opposing player/team). In the real world we use surveillance techniques like optics, radar, and real intelligence. In SC2 we have very similar methods we can use. • Surveillance - Using the scan to maintain regular visual contact is important, but the role of scan changes as the game becomes longer. At first it is to spot the mid-game tech route. Then it becomes important to spot any tech switches. And finally, when you have a plethora of scans, it is to keep track of the opposing army's position and movement. - To most people's surprise, scan is not the most important or useful recon tool you have. Real intelligence is. - In most cases a perimeter is established to make sure the target cannot slip past you without you making visual contact. • Real Intelligence - Real intelligence means information gathered by "feet on the ground." - You need to be using your units, at all times, to be performing their roles and to be collecting intel on your opponent. -- There should be a marine or an SCV at any anticipated expansions. -- There should be a marine standing in a likely drop ship path on the sides of the map. -- There should be a marine standing guard at every single exit from your opponent's base. -- Periodically you want to suicide the marine, or poke with him to see what the army composition is. -- Essentially your opponent should NEVER be able to move out of his base without you instantly making visual contact with him. -- Your opponent should not be able to walk across the map without running into three guards and you knowing exactly how fast they're traveling and exactly what route they're taking. • Think about it as if it were real life - Imagine you're trapped in a Wal Mart with a group of friends and their is another group of people who have sworn to kill you. They are actively trying to kill you. - How important would it be to know where they are at all times? - How important would it be to know what materials their collecting off the shelves? - How important would it be to engage them when they are at their most vulnerable? Staying in constant contact with your opponent is absolutely one of the most important skills you can learn. Hope this helps. | ||
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RukKus
United States197 Posts
• Think about it as if it were real life - Imagine you're trapped in a Wal Mart with a group of friends and their is another group of people who have sworn to kill you. They are actively trying to kill you. - How important would it be to know where they are at all times? - How important would it be to know what materials their collecting off the shelves? - How important would it be to engage them when they are at their most vulnerable? Hope this helps. I'm a sucker for real life applications, and including wal mart in an application makes it even sexier. Questions on scouting: Marine or SCV for scouting key positions on the map? Marine early game and SCV when saturation has been met? Early and mid game, how often to scan? 2 mule 1 scan rotations? Other questions: Are Nukes viable to break stalemate tank lines? I've heard it's a good way to make him unsiege, but it sounds like one of those creative strats that I never think of. Assuming I am opening 1-1-1 with semi-fast tanks for defense, when would I place the expo? Is it necessary to sim-city every TvT in anticipation of bluflame hellion drops? I have been getting "roasted" lately to spur me to start sim-citying with my first structures. I've gotten so good that I once fended off a 4 blueflame hellion drop losing only 1 SCV while I did the same to him and roasted all of his! The reason I ask this. ... is there any downside to such simcity defense? Every time I try a specific harass opener such as hellion drops or cloaked banshee, I die soon thereafter because I don't have enough army units. Several times I've roasted an entire economy with hellions or banshees but died to a counter attack, because I didn't have siege researched. Would you consider harass openings such as this gimmicky and used sparingly. How viable is Planetry fortress in TvT? Whenever I go PF, usually it's a magnet to tank fire.. (it does position his troops away from the centerline, but im not good enough to take advantage of this). Whenever I go OC for a 3rd, it dies to a marauder drop... by "whenever" i mean it happens often enough to be a dent in my TvT w/l ratio. I am 2900 Diamond T... looking to gain insight from the community | ||
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