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Hey guys, lately i've been really struggling with my Terran vs Terran matches, and most of the time i lose to this really early and annoying siege tank push, and i have absolutly no idea on how to stop it.
I've been told that if im suspecting an early push, i should put up a bunker, but that doesnt really help against sieged tanks. The only thing i can really think of is just throwing all i've got at his contain (incl. SCV's), and that usually kills him with good micro, but then he's with a huge advantage in the eco game and i just lose later on instead.
So, how do u terrans out there deal with this kind of push? Im really confused  .
And let me know if i forgot to include something important, this is my first post, so please be nice :o).
And im sorry if this has been up before, but i honestly couldnt find any threads about it.
Thanks!
- Krasso the 2800 diamond terran with TvT skills like a bronze player.
Edit:
Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142713-1v1-terran-steppes-of-war
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Post a replay so the exact timing can be seen, but I've seen fast siege tank pushes in TvT defeated without anything fancy.
What units come with the tanks? Marines? A raven? banshees?
In the games I watched, it was a marine/tank push around the 8minute mark with 2 tanks, siege mode about to finish, stim done, and about 14-15 marines.
The counter in the end was about 5-6 marauders, the rest marines, and pulling 4 scvs to take the first salvo of tank fire while charging down the ramp with the marauders and sniping the tanks.
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youre in luck, like 50% of all competetive level TvTs have early sieges Im sure youll figure something out even if you just parrot also, if you wanted more specific help youd have to post a replay ;/
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I'd also appreciate the communities thoughts on this. I'm only Plat, but TvT is my worst matchup on the ladder.
If I tank contain, i feel like i get dropped all the time and am not mobile enough to respond. Even a tank seiged up in your base is not enough to buy time if they death drop you. If I opt for a more mobile force, I get tank contained yet can't seem to pull off drops with the effectiveness required to counter the contain.
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u can stop it with siege tanks of your own or 2port/hellion play works too. however 2port/hellion can be easily countered by passitivity.
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Ok, i've added a replay. Its usually something of that sort i get killed by.
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Well, the main way is to have your own siege tanks! Early game, one or two well placed siege tanks effectively negates any siege tank pushes. I usually have a reactored starport cranking out vikings at the start. Your vikings will arrive at the line a lot faster, and you should be able to drive his tanks back. It only takes one or 2 kills before they should move back.
Another option is banshees, just fly out of any scans and hit the siege tanks. Early game, they won't have enough scans to be able to pick off your banshees
Eventually you will need tanks though. Viking/tank is really the only way to play TvT, and it generally comes down to who has the most vikings, followed by who has the best position.
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Open banshee? That's what I do unless I fe. I don't have any problems with Tank contains except on Steppes, once you see it coming get your own tanks and split your banshees up on his mineral line and army. If he moves out with 2 tanks you should have 1 banshee already so you can pick off marines on the way and eventually force him back, if he keeps going on with most of his marines gone engage with your own marines and banshee to kill that force.
When you do 2 gas fe your own tank and viking should come out in time to force him back and if you do some bio fe play you should have enough to make him back off if your build is right. If you do some 1 base bio stuff stop doing that.
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Scouting. You should have plenty of time to respond to a tank/marine push. The idea is 1/2 tanks and marines, and while hes moving out research siege tech.
If you are two-rax, punish it early on. If you are going the same route, you should have more forces than he does. Siege tank contains can be beat easier if you preemptively setup outside your choke. At chokes, defenders have an disadvantage during a contain. Move your stuff to the natural and bring SCVs for repairs. Make sure they dont get siege tech before you.
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On February 22 2011 10:57 bowser wrote:
I'd also appreciate the communities thoughts on this. I'm only Plat, but TvT is my worst matchup on the ladder.
If I tank contain, i feel like i get dropped all the time and am not mobile enough to respond. Even a tank seiged up in your base is not enough to buy time if they death drop you. If I opt for a more mobile force, I get tank contained yet can't seem to pull off drops with the effectiveness required to counter the contain.
If your getting dropped use proper supply depot placement to block hellions from your scvs. And put 1 tank in your base near the mineral line). It is usually best to put the tank at the most likely space for hellions to approach from. Also use your supply depots to spot your entire base (IE build them in all your blind spots). This well help you see hellion harass coming in.
Some thigns you might try with your mobile force is dropping hellions on the tanks it doesnt do much damage but if done right you might be able to roast alot of marines. If you kill his marines you can sit their and attack the tanks forcing him to unseige than you can move your army up. Think of ideas to use the mobility of your force and experiement in customs with terran friends or even on the ladder! Remember his tanks cant be everywhere. Do you use banshees? Sometimes just 1 or 2 can but a real damper on tanks marines and scvs. (with cloak of course  )
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This was on Steppes of War, not alot of time to react even if scout it on there.
And, if i open banshee, should i also be doing cloak then? :o
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the answer is hellion into banshee imo. thats the opening i use in tvt every game, you can easily hold a 3 rax or a tank push. most games ill send my first banshee down to his base and if i see his army moving out hold one in my base. with cloak and micro you can easily beat this, and do a lot of economic damage of your own.
use your hellions and banshees to hold until you get your own tank out then bust out a viking asap. if he's moved his whole army out to attack you, your banshee in his base could win you the game, or at least make him pull back.
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In that replay, you basically just failed to respond adequately. After his first push, you both had the same SCV count, nothing changed there. After that though, your macro and micro start slipping. You didn't produce vikings fast enough, and there was no reason to run your tank away from his - an unsieged tank actually has better dps than a sieged tank and you could have easily assigned a few scvs to repair it if the vikings landed.
Your raven also did nothing, which is a real shame considering how expensive it is.
Also, if you want to go blue flame, go for that EARLY and you need to drop to make up for how expensive it is. Otherwise, go for siege mode - your timing on blue flame was a little ridiculous! "I'm getting siege tank pushed, I know! I'll upgrade my hellions anti-light capabilities!"
So:
get siege mode earlier
don't stop pumping out vikings and tanks
1v1 unsieged > sieged tank
keep ravens alive and use PDD for viking battles
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On February 22 2011 11:08 Krasso wrote:
This was on Steppes of War, not alot of time to react even if scout it on there.
And, if i open banshee, should i also be doing cloak then? :o
Yes. One cloakshee in his mineral line, one to pick off his tanks while you get your own out.
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On February 22 2011 11:17 Mercury- wrote:
Yes. One cloakshee in his mineral line, one to pick off his tanks while you get your own out.
Depends: If I see that he's prepared with turrets or vikings, I won't bother with cloak. It's really expensive, and you need to force quite a few scans or take out some tanks to make it worth it. Otherwise, I just reactor the star port and start viking production.
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On February 22 2011 11:20 Ayjayz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 11:17 Mercury- wrote:
Yes. One cloakshee in his mineral line, one to pick off his tanks while you get your own out. Depends: If I see that he's prepared with turrets or vikings, I won't bother with cloak. It's really expensive, and you need to force quite a few scans or take out some tanks to make it worth it. Otherwise, I just reactor the star port and start viking production.
By the time the other T has all that he should have his own tanks out and expo up to give him a favorable position.
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On February 22 2011 11:15 Ayjayz wrote:
In that replay, you basically just failed to respond adequately. After his first push, you both had the same SCV count, nothing changed there. After that though, your macro and micro start slipping. You didn't produce vikings fast enough, and there was no reason to run your tank away from his - an unsieged tank actually has better dps than a sieged tank and you could have easily assigned a few scvs to repair it if the vikings landed.
Your raven also did nothing, which is a real shame considering how expensive it is.
Also, if you want to go blue flame, go for that EARLY and you need to drop to make up for how expensive it is. Otherwise, go for siege mode - your timing on blue flame was a little ridiculous! "I'm getting siege tank pushed, I know! I'll upgrade my hellions anti-light capabilities!"
So:
get siege mode earlier
don't stop pumping out vikings and tanks
1v1 unsieged > sieged tank
keep ravens alive and use PDD for viking battles
Its just funny, cus i feel like everyone i ask answers something different.
U tell me to get siege mode early, day9 tells me to wait untill i need it.
u tell me to get vikings early, people tell me to get something to harrass with (in TvT)
TvT just feels like a rock-paper-scissors match-up to me >_>
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On February 22 2011 11:11 Jayzo wrote:
the answer is hellion into banshee imo. thats the opening i use in tvt every game, you can easily hold a 3 rax or a tank push. most games ill send my first banshee down to his base and if i see his army moving out hold one in my base. with cloak and micro you can easily beat this, and do a lot of economic damage of your own.
use your hellions and banshees to hold until you get your own tank out then bust out a viking asap. if he's moved his whole army out to attack you, your banshee in his base could win you the game, or at least make him pull back.
Do you have a replay of this I can check out? I like the sounds of it . . . just trying to find a playstyle in TvT i'm comfortable with and this sounds interesting.
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On February 22 2011 11:36 Krasso wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 11:15 Ayjayz wrote:
In that replay, you basically just failed to respond adequately. After his first push, you both had the same SCV count, nothing changed there. After that though, your macro and micro start slipping. You didn't produce vikings fast enough, and there was no reason to run your tank away from his - an unsieged tank actually has better dps than a sieged tank and you could have easily assigned a few scvs to repair it if the vikings landed.
Your raven also did nothing, which is a real shame considering how expensive it is.
Also, if you want to go blue flame, go for that EARLY and you need to drop to make up for how expensive it is. Otherwise, go for siege mode - your timing on blue flame was a little ridiculous! "I'm getting siege tank pushed, I know! I'll upgrade my hellions anti-light capabilities!"
So:
get siege mode earlier
don't stop pumping out vikings and tanks
1v1 unsieged > sieged tank
keep ravens alive and use PDD for viking battles Its just funny, cus i feel like everyone i ask answers something different. U tell me to get siege mode early, day9 tells me to wait untill i need it. u tell me to get vikings early, people tell me to get something to harrass with (in TvT) TvT just feels like a rock-paper-scissors match-up to me >_>
-If you're gettiing early tankpushed, you will need siege to reply unless you have shees or can catch him before he reaches your base
-Technically speaking you can harass with vikings-it just takes a long time to get in/leave, very risky, very expensive if it doesn't work xD
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This is kinda why i find it like rock-paper-scissors:
If i do some kinda harrass (banshee/helion) im weak to early pushes.
If i do standard 1-1-1 opening i dont get any harrass done which (as i understand it) is a very important part of TvT.
Sorry if im not rly clear. This match-up just confuses me so badly and i wish there was this one build i could do that wasnt anything special and safe vs. almost everything. Like the 2rax expo is against toss for example.
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I do a FE and place 2 offset bunkers at the front, since that early 1-2 tank marine push comes around that time. I'll have 3-4 rax and just need to stall (reapirs) until the upgrades finish which usually always finishes in time. If you have backrocks you should just bust out those and counter attack him.
If not, try to hide some units outside your base before the timing hits (should be right around you finish your nats CC and send out as you go to make the bunkers. with this back flank units you want to wait for the tanks to unsige to snipe and send reinforce into it.
if he's doing a reinfoce contain, get some tanks yourself and/or try to use that flanking army to do counter damages (like sniping off some things in his base / killing reinforcements).
I got a few replays of me beating this kind of pressure/build if your interested, It's not masters level play, but they are high diamonds. I think the idea should be the same...
Generally in my experiance the counter attacking works nicely because they have a few tanks and have to slow push into your bunkers that can be repaired. they have marines usually not maradards, its hard for them to break you regardless if they try a base trade, and worst senario you lose your nats workers and snuff his attack with reinforcements...
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I like to fight fire with fire.......and vikings. Seriously, simply having a couple of tanks on a ledge, with either a viking or medivac for spotting (or even a few marines patrolling to extend tank range) will stop most tank pushes. If you're going mmm and dont have tanks, simply load up some marauders out of view (not everything so he doesnt rush up your ramp), then flank his tanks with them and drop when you're directly above them. Make sure you target fire his tanks. Sure, you might lose some marauders, but hes just lost all his tanks
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Basically, the key to playing TvT without using mech is to scout and be aware of what is happening. Unless he is fastidiously leapfrogging them (i.e. taking his time), you can catch him unawares by having your army in an unconventional position and flanking him.
I like to 3rax and get a scouting reaper just to see what they are doing (I'm not at a level where I can scout with it while killing 3-4 scvs, it's more important to scout their gasses and factory/ starport).
If you see a tech/ 2 gasses and no bunker/ weak bunker you can have a go at attacking. If you see a starport, throw down a quick engy bay and get a couple of turrets.
If you keep the pressure on them and apply the right timings, you can expand and camp outside to prevent them setting up their second easily.
Meanwhile you have your expo up and running and get a couple more rax and some starports of your own. I find that banshees really disorientate tank users. It does boil down to a viking fest if the game goes long because you need the air superiority. I find that a well executed banshee viking (with a strong ground army) will beat a tank viking composition.
You also want to drop and abuse the mobility of your army while exploiting the immobility of theirs. By the time they get their second up you can be working on a third.
This isn't easy though; I mess up all the time and lose because I suck, but if you have seen that game where Boxer beats Jinro on Blazing Sands you will see how you can beat a tank heavy T without making any of your own. The worst thing to do vs a tanking player if you arent getting any is just to let him march up to your front door and deploy.
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I used to have problems with siege tank contains, but i found that opening banshee is an effective way to get an expansion up and deal with any early attacks. I used it to masters, but after i became more comfortable with the matchup and realized how to beat it otherwise i usually just 1 rax fe now.
I'd suggest just using 111 banshees and getting an engi bay then an expansion. 7 mins cloaked banshees or hellions can be in your base so beware. Also, probably a good idea to usually build a bunker.
As you do this, I'd suggest you watch alot of replays and to not be scared of tvt. After time put into it and the right perspective you will get the hang of it and discover that there is a large amount of freedom in tvt. It's probably the most dynamic matchup; its also probably one of the hardest.
Anyways, thats all imo. Good luck with your efforts on improving
Edit: Also, i would suggest examining your macro. A general rule that i feel applies to most tvt matches is that he with the most shit wins. Obviously if you are terrible at control this probably doesnt apply to you really, but you get the idea
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there is so much you can do against siege tanks you just have to decide for one thing. I like to skip siege a little and wait if they try a contain and overrun them while they are in the middle of the map. Otherwise i just expand.
For some time i loved the thors push against siege tanks, its fun if you take a medivac to lift them, but the micro effort is a little heavy.
But in general you can just use your own siege tanks even if he has vision, as long as your tanks point on the choke he can't advance. And you can simple use a building for your vision as one viking would take ages to get it down. Also its easy to beat more vikings then you have if you have one damaged building floating around.
PS: i think up to diamond the easiest thing to do is a hellion drop. you can kill everything that he reproduces (yes even tanks, well if he lands a viking maybe not, but then he should not fall for a hellion drop while containing). I think in platin/diamond region (before there was master) 80% of the terrans who did a contain lost around 20-30 workers due to this drop. (i leave a siege tank in my main against those drops, gives you enoug time to react)
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Thanks for the answers guys, ill try fighting a lil' more, and come back screaming for help if i give up xD.
But havei understood this right, if you do 1-1-1 in TvT, you should also be doing some kind of harrass? I feel like 1-1-1 is too weak (against some strats like 3rax) of a strat if you just use it to expand. What do you guys think about that?
On February 22 2011 21:16 Buff345 wrote:
I used to have problems with siege tank contains, but i found that opening banshee is an effective way to get an expansion up and deal with any early attacks. I used it to masters, but after i became more comfortable with the matchup and realized how to beat it otherwise i usually just 1 rax fe now.
I'd suggest just using 111 banshees and getting an engi bay then an expansion. 7 mins cloaked banshees or hellions can be in your base so beware. Also, probably a good idea to usually build a bunker.
As you do this, I'd suggest you watch alot of replays and to not be scared of tvt. After time put into it and the right perspective you will get the hang of it and discover that there is a large amount of freedom in tvt. It's probably the most dynamic matchup; its also probably one of the hardest.
Anyways, thats all imo. Good luck with your efforts on improving
Edit: Also, i would suggest examining your macro. A general rule that i feel applies to most tvt matches is that he with the most shit wins. Obviously if you are terrible at control this probably doesnt apply to you really, but you get the idea
Should i get cloak with all this?
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Hi Krasso,
It depends on if you mean a *really-ASAP-early* siege push or something with more than 2 tanks.
For the raelly early one I usually do fine with stimmed marines and a little micro. Siege tech is not critical early game. Just make sure you dont engage him in your own ramp/expo-choke or when he is already sieged (in other words, avoid the splash damage).
For the later push you just have to get tanks yourself OR you can do the iEchoic build and skip the tankgame.
It should be noted that I NEVER fast expand in TvT because of the damn siegepushes/drops. Maybe some masters guy can tell me how?
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On February 22 2011 20:19 Xursian wrote:
I do a FE and place 2 offset bunkers at the front, since that early 1-2 tank marine push comes around that time.
How do you defend/survive a drop of 2tanks and a medivac of marines in your main before you have siegetech? There's no way youll have the minerals to tech far after FE and two bunkers?? Even if he goes frontal he can take the bunkers out fast since unsieged tanks outrange bunkers. I've always dreamt of surviving after FE in TvT but I just cant get it to work.
If not, try to hide some units outside your base before the timing hits (should be right around you finish your nats CC and send out as you go to make the bunkers. with this back flank units you want to wait for the tanks to unsige to snipe and send reinforce into it.
I like the idea but people tend to keep the marine blob ON the siegetanks. Still stimmed marauders might actually manage to snipe the tanks before they die...
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If you open banshee then you really need to use your first one to whittle down his force. Otherwise, he may have a turret up at his main and then build a turret near your ramp.
If you open bio, then it should be easy as tanks aren't good in small numbers (and moving across the map).
Otherwise, have a tank of your own.
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Hey Krasso, we could play some time? I am in the same situation as myself --> ~3k terran with bronze TvT skills lol. Feel free to add me: ScrubS.301
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On February 23 2011 00:33 Cibron wrote:
Hi Krasso,
It depends on if you mean a *really-ASAP-early* siege push or something with more than 2 tanks.
For the raelly early one I usually do fine with stimmed marines and a little micro. Siege tech is not critical early game. Just make sure you dont engage him in your own ramp/expo-choke or when he is already sieged (in other words, avoid the splash damage).
For the later push you just have to get tanks yourself OR you can do the iEchoic build and skip the tankgame.
It should be noted that I NEVER fast expand in TvT because of the damn siegepushes/drops. Maybe some masters guy can tell me how?
So you think i should always get stim early? 'Cus there aint much time to react and get stim as the counter when the game is on SoW. ^^
On February 23 2011 00:52 ScrubS wrote:
Hey Krasso, we could play some time? I am in the same situation as myself --> ~3k terran with bronze TvT skills lol. Feel free to add me: ScrubS.301
Yeah of course. Im down if you wanna play tonight?
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On February 23 2011 01:01 Krasso wrote:
So you think i should always get stim early? 'Cus there aint much time to react and get stim as the counter when the game is on SoW. ^^
I tend to go stim before siegetech unless he expands. Helps out a lot because it allows me to stop the first siegepush easily and do those nasty drops as soon as i have medivacs.
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On February 22 2011 12:14 Krasso wrote:
This is kinda why i find it like rock-paper-scissors:
If i do some kinda harrass (banshee/helion) im weak to early pushes.
If i do standard 1-1-1 opening i dont get any harrass done which (as i understand it) is a very important part of TvT.
Sorry if im not rly clear. This match-up just confuses me so badly and i wish there was this one build i could do that wasnt anything special and safe vs. almost everything. Like the 2rax expo is against toss for example.
Krasso,
Be less specific in your approach.
The reason why you feel like you're getting conflicting information, or that it is "Rock Paper Scissors" is because everyone is offering you advice that is too specific in my opinion.
Day9 is awesome, but what he says is not always SC2 canon. He is high level, for sure, but even he makes a million assumptions while he gives advice and makes commentary.
I'm just going to offer some basic perspectives that help me in this match up.
• Know your openers perfectly. Then, in early game decide whether or not you want to be the defender or the attacker.
• Stay in constant contact with your opponent.
• Try to avoid things like, "If he does A, I will do B," and gravitate more towards, "He is doing A, I'm already doing B, what can I do right now to deal with A?"
• Don't worry so much about whether or not your decision is the "right one," rather put all your concentration and focus on making sure you execute your decision perfectly.
• TvT is an insane matchup, but as long as you focus on execution you should be able to read your opponent and counter him with whatever you want.
• Try to learn what type of advantages are being created, how to exploit them, and how to set them up. For instance, an early Siege Tank contain is a positional advantage. This leaves the door open for you to have a material advantage.
• Be decisive with your recon. If you see fast tanks, expect a push. If you see a tech lab starport, expect banshees. If you see three rax, expect a stim attack. Doesn't matter if you're right. What matters is that you are expecting something directly related to what you scouted.
• In a tank stalemate think of it exactly like that - A stalemate; neither opponent can win. Think of two locked pawns. Neither can move. Neither can kill each other. So, what do you do? You can reinforce the pawn and hope your reinforcements are better, or you can attack somewhere else.
• TvT becomes the most volatile when there is a tank stalemate. Is winning that stalemate the right move? Probably not.
I don't know if any of this will help you. Maybe you're looking for really specific advice, but I think that the above should help you feel more confident in the match up.
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If he is going in so fast with so many tanks just get a tech lab on your starport and get a banshee, with this banshee you can also slowly out seige his tanks and once he is pushed out get another banshee counter while expanding and hopefully roll him when your ready to. (he shouldnt have alot of vikings, im guessing none honestly). Or if you want a "better" route you could always just do a drop in his main with your tanks seiged in your main making him either move back to his base OR he attacks a seige line which you will win, either way a starport is nesscary. 1-1-1 is a great build for tvt if you dont use it already try it out gives great options , if your not going to atleast be aware of the dangers of not doing it like blue flame drop and seige tank rush, and cloak banshee. You can normally scan to stop these though
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I usually have an expo going down by that time and then it becomes a wasteland with my scvs dead so instead i tried 3 rax bio. Now even with a large bio army vrs tank/marine its about positioning. You would need to sacrifice 1-3 maybe 4 SCVs to take the first volley from the tanks but then just stim in and obliterate his forces, focus firing on the tanks. Pre-splitting is necessary.
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On February 23 2011 02:58 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 12:14 Krasso wrote:
This is kinda why i find it like rock-paper-scissors:
If i do some kinda harrass (banshee/helion) im weak to early pushes.
If i do standard 1-1-1 opening i dont get any harrass done which (as i understand it) is a very important part of TvT.
Sorry if im not rly clear. This match-up just confuses me so badly and i wish there was this one build i could do that wasnt anything special and safe vs. almost everything. Like the 2rax expo is against toss for example. Krasso, Be less specific in your approach.The reason why you feel like you're getting conflicting information, or that it is "Rock Paper Scissors" is because everyone is offering you advice that is too specific in my opinion. Day9 is awesome, but what he says is not always SC2 canon. He is high level, for sure, but even he makes a million assumptions while he gives advice and makes commentary. I'm just going to offer some basic perspectives that help me in this match up. • Know your openers perfectly. Then, in early game decide whether or not you want to be the defender or the attacker. • Stay in constant contact with your opponent. • Try to avoid things like, "If he does A, I will do B," and gravitate more towards, "He is doing A, I'm already doing B, what can I do right now to deal with A?" • Don't worry so much about whether or not your decision is the "right one," rather put all your concentration and focus on making sure you execute your decision perfectly. • TvT is an insane matchup, but as long as you focus on execution you should be able to read your opponent and counter him with whatever you want. • Try to learn what type of advantages are being created, how to exploit them, and how to set them up. For instance, an early Siege Tank contain is a positional advantage. This leaves the door open for you to have a material advantage. • Be decisive with your recon. If you see fast tanks, expect a push. If you see a tech lab starport, expect banshees. If you see three rax, expect a stim attack. Doesn't matter if you're right. What matters is that you are expecting something directly related to what you scouted. • In a tank stalemate think of it exactly like that - A stalemate; neither opponent can win. Think of two locked pawns. Neither can move. Neither can kill each other. So, what do you do? You can reinforce the pawn and hope your reinforcements are better, or you can attack somewhere else. • TvT becomes the most volatile when there is a tank stalemate. Is winning that stalemate the right move? Probably not. I don't know if any of this will help you. Maybe you're looking for really specific advice, but I think that the above should help you feel more confident in the match up.
Oh man, it really did! I'm definitely gonna read that post a bunch of times untill its stuck in my head ^_^. Now i guess i just have to learn some good TvT builds :o (which i dont have either) Thanks, im sure this is about what i was looking for, some general rules and ways to look at the match-up.
Edit:
But what is this supposed to mean exactly?
• Stay in constant contact with your opponent.
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On February 23 2011 05:53 Krasso wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 02:58 TimeSpiral wrote:On February 22 2011 12:14 Krasso wrote:
This is kinda why i find it like rock-paper-scissors:
If i do some kinda harrass (banshee/helion) im weak to early pushes.
If i do standard 1-1-1 opening i dont get any harrass done which (as i understand it) is a very important part of TvT.
Sorry if im not rly clear. This match-up just confuses me so badly and i wish there was this one build i could do that wasnt anything special and safe vs. almost everything. Like the 2rax expo is against toss for example. Krasso, Be less specific in your approach.The reason why you feel like you're getting conflicting information, or that it is "Rock Paper Scissors" is because everyone is offering you advice that is too specific in my opinion. Day9 is awesome, but what he says is not always SC2 canon. He is high level, for sure, but even he makes a million assumptions while he gives advice and makes commentary. I'm just going to offer some basic perspectives that help me in this match up. • Know your openers perfectly. Then, in early game decide whether or not you want to be the defender or the attacker. • Stay in constant contact with your opponent. • Try to avoid things like, "If he does A, I will do B," and gravitate more towards, "He is doing A, I'm already doing B, what can I do right now to deal with A?" • Don't worry so much about whether or not your decision is the "right one," rather put all your concentration and focus on making sure you execute your decision perfectly. • TvT is an insane matchup, but as long as you focus on execution you should be able to read your opponent and counter him with whatever you want. • Try to learn what type of advantages are being created, how to exploit them, and how to set them up. For instance, an early Siege Tank contain is a positional advantage. This leaves the door open for you to have a material advantage. • Be decisive with your recon. If you see fast tanks, expect a push. If you see a tech lab starport, expect banshees. If you see three rax, expect a stim attack. Doesn't matter if you're right. What matters is that you are expecting something directly related to what you scouted. • In a tank stalemate think of it exactly like that - A stalemate; neither opponent can win. Think of two locked pawns. Neither can move. Neither can kill each other. So, what do you do? You can reinforce the pawn and hope your reinforcements are better, or you can attack somewhere else. • TvT becomes the most volatile when there is a tank stalemate. Is winning that stalemate the right move? Probably not. I don't know if any of this will help you. Maybe you're looking for really specific advice, but I think that the above should help you feel more confident in the match up. Oh man, it really did! I'm definitely gonna read that post a bunch of times untill its stuck in my head ^_^. Now i guess i just have to learn some good TvT builds :o (which i dont have either) Thanks, im sure this is about what i was looking for, some general rules and ways to look at the match-up. Edit: But what is this supposed to mean exactly?
I'm really glad you asked me to elaborate because that's probably one of the most important points in the whole post.
I'm primarily referring to "visual contact."
In any type of tactical operation it is imperative to never lose visual contact with the target (in this case, the opposing player/team). In the real world we use surveillance techniques like optics, radar, and real intelligence. In SC2 we have very similar methods we can use.
• Surveillance
- Using the scan to maintain regular visual contact is important, but the role of scan changes as the game becomes longer. At first it is to spot the mid-game tech route. Then it becomes important to spot any tech switches. And finally, when you have a plethora of scans, it is to keep track of the opposing army's position and movement.
- To most people's surprise, scan is not the most important or useful recon tool you have. Real intelligence is.
- In most cases a perimeter is established to make sure the target cannot slip past you without you making visual contact.
• Real Intelligence
- Real intelligence means information gathered by "feet on the ground."
- You need to be using your units, at all times, to be performing their roles and to be collecting intel on your opponent.
-- There should be a marine or an SCV at any anticipated expansions.
-- There should be a marine standing in a likely drop ship path on the sides of the map.
-- There should be a marine standing guard at every single exit from your opponent's base.
-- Periodically you want to suicide the marine, or poke with him to see what the army composition is.
-- Essentially your opponent should NEVER be able to move out of his base without you instantly making visual contact with him.
-- Your opponent should not be able to walk across the map without running into three guards and you knowing exactly how fast they're traveling and exactly what route they're taking.
• Think about it as if it were real life
- Imagine you're trapped in a Wal Mart with a group of friends and their is another group of people who have sworn to kill you. They are actively trying to kill you.
- How important would it be to know where they are at all times?
- How important would it be to know what materials their collecting off the shelves?
- How important would it be to engage them when they are at their most vulnerable?
Staying in constant contact with your opponent is absolutely one of the most important skills you can learn.
Hope this helps.
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• Think about it as if it were real life
- Imagine you're trapped in a Wal Mart with a group of friends and their is another group of people who have sworn to kill you. They are actively trying to kill you.
- How important would it be to know where they are at all times?
- How important would it be to know what materials their collecting off the shelves?
- How important would it be to engage them when they are at their most vulnerable?
Hope this helps.
I'm a sucker for real life applications, and including wal mart in an application makes it even sexier.
Questions on scouting:
Marine or SCV for scouting key positions on the map? Marine early game and SCV when saturation has been met?
Early and mid game, how often to scan? 2 mule 1 scan rotations?
Other questions:
Are Nukes viable to break stalemate tank lines? I've heard it's a good way to make him unsiege, but it sounds like one of those creative strats that I never think of.
Assuming I am opening 1-1-1 with semi-fast tanks for defense, when would I place the expo?
Is it necessary to sim-city every TvT in anticipation of bluflame hellion drops? I have been getting "roasted" lately to spur me to start sim-citying with my first structures. I've gotten so good that I once fended off a 4 blueflame hellion drop losing only 1 SCV while I did the same to him and roasted all of his! The reason I ask this. ... is there any downside to such simcity defense?
Every time I try a specific harass opener such as hellion drops or cloaked banshee, I die soon thereafter because I don't have enough army units. Several times I've roasted an entire economy with hellions or banshees but died to a counter attack, because I didn't have siege researched. Would you consider harass openings such as this gimmicky and used sparingly.
How viable is Planetry fortress in TvT? Whenever I go PF, usually it's a magnet to tank fire.. (it does position his troops away from the centerline, but im not good enough to take advantage of this). Whenever I go OC for a 3rd, it dies to a marauder drop... by "whenever" i mean it happens often enough to be a dent in my TvT w/l ratio.
I am 2900 Diamond T... looking to gain insight from the community
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TvT is my strongest matchup and I usually push early with tanks. The few things who can give me issues:
- Banshees (I always prepare for it but sometimes if you pull one out real fast it can be tough to have turrets/vikings in time)
- 3 rax/bunch of marauders (depends on the map here, on open areas it can work but on closed chokes/ramps it will die)
- Tanks
- Early drop (most terrans are NOT ready for this)
In general just scouting and being prepared for it should make you ok.. just don't get walled in your base with sieges/turrets outside your base..
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Try the iEchoic tvt build
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On February 23 2011 07:56 RukKus wrote:Show nested quote +
• Think about it as if it were real life
- Imagine you're trapped in a Wal Mart with a group of friends and their is another group of people who have sworn to kill you. They are actively trying to kill you.
- How important would it be to know where they are at all times?
- How important would it be to know what materials their collecting off the shelves?
- How important would it be to engage them when they are at their most vulnerable?
Hope this helps.
Questions on scouting: Marine or SCV for scouting key positions on the map? Marine early game and SCV when saturation has been met? Early and mid game, how often to scan? 2 mule 1 scan rotations?
In the super early game I use my scouting SCV. But beyond super early game it should always be marines. Marines and SCVs have the same cost but the SCV is an income earning position, the Marine is a military unit - it's job is recon, and combat.
Once you start setting up surveillance with Marines you can never go back. You can literally see everything. You'll spot every drop. It's awesome. Obviously this does not work so well in TvZ if the Z is good about his patrols. You should also be doing this in TvP.
Always MULE in early game if you are not confident in what you're opponent is doing. Either use a timed reaper to get in his base, or a timed scan when he should have devoted a tech path.
In late game you want to constantly scan your enemy's army and try to catch it out of position.
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I usually go 1 Barracks FE. As soon as the CC goes down, double gas should go down immediately after, followed by factory and starport.
I then get siege tanks, siege mode and 1 viking while saving up a scan. I'll patrol the most common drop route and see if I can catch a medivac. If its banshees, I have a scan saved up and a viking. You can also get an ebay and put up 1 turret to deny it.
If he goes fast tanks to start a contain, just don't panic. Your economy will be stronger, so it is only a matter of time before you gain air control and push him out. Just be as cost effective as possible. Some contains are scary, some are just little pokes that are annoying. Just remember its never cost effective to run your army into tank fire to break a contain.
Edit: I've also been getting +1 on turrets lately in TvT. I find it helps when your opponent uses banshees or nukes to try and break a contain. On top of that, it helps you maintain air control.
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Well, I do siege tank push all the time vs T, and I win 8 out of 10 times with my matchups. I will analyse from this angle so hopefully you understand the mechanics of how a seige tank push works and knows how to counter it.
1) Seige tank push works best if you see your opponent walling off. As soon as I spot the wall off I go seige push. Cos that normally means I can put a seige tank outside of chok and just blast right out at the buildings causing your barracks and depots to hurt and eco as well when you start repairing. I even leave a scan open when I am at the doorstep of my opponent so the tanks get to blast away more things in sight or when a cloak unit comes. So to avoid that, don't wall off, unless you want to hide your early Ports/Ghost...
2) Seige tank push aims to contain oppenent early so one can expand. So to counter it is to make sure you scout and when you spotted anything coming, proactively move your forces out to welcome your opponent. Tanks are vulnerable and they are rather easy to take down when they are not seiged, so go and greet your opponent actively can take down the tank real quick. Remember - the tank is the most valuable asset of a seige push, so you take it down, you are ahead.
3) Drops - it works and I had lost to hellions drop before. What I now do is instead of 2 tanks push, I leave one tank at home to seige for defense. Have that option in your mind.
4) Banshees - it does work, but normally a tank will be surrounded by a group of marines, so you need normally 2 banshees to take down one tank group (giving up one) if they are uncloaked. You can equally fly your banshees to your opponent base to harrass. That is somewhat all/nothing cos if you go early banshee you will likely to have little to no other forces to defend. Keep pumping out marines while you fly your banshee out as that is your own ground response available. I as a tank push user, counter that by getting vikings in base and an extra scan unused.
5) Counter with Siege tank - learn how to seige tank push so you know the timing of it. It's really quite easy to handle. It's basically an orb-comm open then go 1-1-1 with 100gas on factory. The reason I go for a starport early instead of an extra tank earlier is it gives me option to go vikings or medic. Both also gives me vision when I blast away to a wall-off.
My first post, sorry for a long one. I hope this helps.
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On February 22 2011 11:36 Krasso wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 11:15 Ayjayz wrote:
In that replay, you basically just failed to respond adequately. After his first push, you both had the same SCV count, nothing changed there. After that though, your macro and micro start slipping. You didn't produce vikings fast enough, and there was no reason to run your tank away from his - an unsieged tank actually has better dps than a sieged tank and you could have easily assigned a few scvs to repair it if the vikings landed.
Your raven also did nothing, which is a real shame considering how expensive it is.
Also, if you want to go blue flame, go for that EARLY and you need to drop to make up for how expensive it is. Otherwise, go for siege mode - your timing on blue flame was a little ridiculous! "I'm getting siege tank pushed, I know! I'll upgrade my hellions anti-light capabilities!"
So:
get siege mode earlier
don't stop pumping out vikings and tanks
1v1 unsieged > sieged tank
keep ravens alive and use PDD for viking battles Its just funny, cus i feel like everyone i ask answers something different. U tell me to get siege mode early, day9 tells me to wait untill i need it. u tell me to get vikings early, people tell me to get something to harrass with (in TvT) TvT just feels like a rock-paper-scissors match-up to me >_>
As long as you play standard siege, there's really nothing to worry or something that needs to be changed.
If you do something fancy like 2-3 early hellions, quick raven??? quick vikings?? (dunno just saying) you might not be in ok shape but it's still manageable.
When for some reason he tries something really stupid like few marines, 2 tank contain, you break it by pulling some scvs and you're actually ahead.
This is just generic advice, i'll look at replay when i get home.
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today's adebisi YouTube has a 3 game Korean sc cast and game 1 is a tank and 8 marines rush with siege completing as he arrived. He sieges up in the natural and tries to scan to see the high ground.
His opponent had a bunker and a tank, .,, and a game winning banshee that killed 17 scvs at the attackers base, and gg..
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Cloak banshees work very well
I think you have to know about TvT is that any mobile army will lack detection so take advantage of that. This applies the same as bio balls.
What you have to be careful of is if the contain lasts too long and he starts getting turrets up.
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hellion and later banshee really seems to shut it down, try that. works for me atleast
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I have heard that mass marines is the best tactic. The marines are general purpose units and together with good micro, can be an unstoppable force. Because they are general purpose units they are good at doing pretty much everything. So mass marines is the new generation of sc2. You should do it too. It is particularly good at tanks, as they have slow reload, and can only hit on at the time.
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Really o.o
you brought up a 3 month old thread to say that.
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On February 23 2011 11:58 Terminator(471) wrote:
Try the iEchoic tvt build
OP said he was looking for something standard I think? iEchoic is definitely not. I also use it and I don't think I've ever lost to any tank play, lots of base trades though.
Also that I've seen so much BM from using that build its ridiculous.
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"Really o.o
you brought up a 3 month old thread to troll?"
Fixed
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I have a specific Build order that I use to specifically counter a few different T v T openings. I feel like TvT is based on GREAT decision making with some position advantages and unit control. The opening I use is a lot more defensive then offensive. I hope to win the game with better decision making on more then 2 base.
The openings that I counter with this build are the following
-Early tank aggression
-2-3 Rax SCV pulling all ins.
-Banshee Open
The build:
In short it’s a 1/1/1 raven open some keys to the build are the following. With standard Gas and supply depot timings for TvT, I don’t want to put a full supply BO.
-Constant SCV production
-After barracks is done constant marine production
-After 3 marines are built I start a bunker at top of ramp so when 4 marines are finished I can hop inside. (This prevents marines/rauder allins)
-Right when my Factory completes I Build a tech lab on the factory while starting my Starport.
-Right when techlab on Factory completes I start a tank.
-Right when starport completes I build a tech lab on the starport. And when the techlab completes you should have about 185 gas , right when it its 200 build a raven.
-Once the tank is completed I keep it by my mineral line with a few marines. Just in case there is a drop.
-With my next 100 gas I start researching siege mode.
At this point you have a lot of versatility going into the mid game.
If he opens banshee you have raven/marines. If he comes w/ siege tanks all you need is the one siege tank siege at your ramp. Continue siege production and prepare an in base expansion and use your raven for spotting. I even like to get one banshee and start picking off his tanks and push him back to take your expo.
In your specific scenario I would get a banshee of my one and MAKE SURE IT DOESN’T DIE! Micro a round pick tanks off while getting a second barracks. After my banshee completes I lift off my starport and switch it for barracks for stim / combat shield upgrade. Get a medevac out of the starport and start harassing him, after all he is outside your base and most likely can do some damage in his base w/ 8 marines /w stim. AS LONG as you have vision w/ raven and 1-2 tanks at ramp you will be fine and use that banshee to get him to pull back.
NOTE- one of the openings that I somewhat have a hard time w/ is blue flame hellion open. If I scout it in time i like to get 1 or 2 mauraders w/ slow in my min line. If I don’t scout it in time I atleast put my depots around the outskirts of my base so I can see the drop coming and position my tanks / marine that I put in my mineral line to soak the damage rather than my scvs. Use 3-4 scvs to trap the hellions, you can afford to lose 3-4 scvs, just not 10-15.
I’m no pro, but this is what I do.
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On May 21 2011 01:21 Perfect wrote:
did i get trolled?
I think so, my friend. But it still might help people stumbling upon the necro.
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I always get flustered when people use the word rush. Its not a rush but an attack. People just assume that the game should be a turtle fest.
Really the best way to not die to an early tank attack without also going for the fast tank is to take map control and intercept the attack with alot of marines or marine hellion.
Personally i like to go 1 rax expand. Drop both gases asap get a second rax and pump hellions. You then simply move around the map and prevent them from sieging near your base.
EDIT: If they siege near you base just split and move next to the tank while your hellions clean the marines.
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EPT
