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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 21 2011 08:03 TheBlueBox wrote: I'll definitely be reading this. Currently a bronze Zerg, after tanking myself back down from Platinum. (I rushed every game and didn't have any skill to show for it, so I wanna start again. x.x) Good luck, I hope you do well. | ||
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monitor
United States2403 Posts
I only think you should change one thing, and that is the "attack at 200/200" idea. It is sort of right, but in a lot of games it is good to turtle on 200/200 until you've build up a lot of larvae, and then attack. If you attack right at 200/200, you (probably) won't be able to rebuild your army. It is good to wait for a little bit, and make sure you attack on their side of the map so you can rebuild after the engagement. | ||
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b3serker
Canada11 Posts
 While there's a lot of discussion about the different inject methods for zerg, I'm wondering how do people time their injects properly? I used to do the all hatch on one hotkey, all queens on another, and minimap inject but then I found I had problems timing the injects properly. I've since then switched to hotkeys for individual hatcheries. How does everyone else time the injects? | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 21 2011 12:44 b3serker wrote: Awesome guide While there's a lot of discussion about the different inject methods for zerg, I'm wondering how do people time their injects properly? I used to do the all hatch on one hotkey, all queens on another, and minimap inject but then I found I had problems timing the injects properly. I've since then switched to hotkeys for individual hatcheries. How does everyone else time the injects? There are 2 preferred methods. Hotkeying queens and hotkeying hatches. Hotkeying Queens: All hatches on one hotkey. Each queen has her own hotkey. There are 2 ways to tell when your lavae injects have finished. When your larvae suddenly jump up by 4 (or 8, 12, 16, depending on how many queens you have), or when your queen has 25 energy. Hotkeying Hatcheries. All Queens on one hotkey. Each hatch has its own hotkey. There is a bar signifying larvae injects. When that bar disappears, you go to each hatchery, select your queen hotkey, and inject, then repeat. | ||
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zergules
United States55 Posts
I'm a Gold level zerg, wanting to improve. Like everyone else (at least it seems like everyone) I feel like zerg requires so much more than than the other races to do well. I'm really struggling to improve my macro, and I hope that your tips help. Keep swarmin'! | ||
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fatty77
United States41 Posts
So now I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, just for a change of pace. And I need help. And then I stumbled upon this thread. Just wanted to say thanks, I know it took a lot of effort to write this guide but it will go to good use. Thanks again and wish me luck. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 21 2011 14:03 fatty77 wrote: Ugghh, talk about a bummer. I started experimenting with new Protoss builds trying to get away from the normal 4 Gate routine, and I started losing a lot. To the point where I just lost focus, and now I'm "reclassified" to rank Gold from Platinum. From being rank 1 in Platinum at one time to now Gold. Man I'm pretty bummed. So now I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, just for a change of pace. And I need help. And then I stumbled upon this thread. Just wanted to say thanks, I know it took a lot of effort to write this guide but it will go to good use. Thanks again and wish me luck. Good Luck. And if by hard work you mean I needed to kill 2 hours while it was slow at work, you are correct. lol | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
I'll definatly read that post when i'm home, it looks like quite solid advice. Well done. | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
The key upgrades in ZvP is burrow, which prevents any kind of push without an observer, and with speedlings and roaches you can kill any thing the protoss can send before colosi making you safe to get the 3rd and drone. Same is true for ZvT, where the key upgrade is banelings speed, (or infester energy upgrade), once you get that, there is very little a terran can do untill he gets large numbers of tanks, which lets you get the 3rd and drone up. | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 21 2011 17:40 Dhalphir wrote: this was a great post, but I worry a bit that it continues to advance the idea that Zerg is "harder" to play than "ezmode Protoss and Terran", when it isn't the case. That may not have been the intention in the post, but several key paragraphs have that overall tone to them. I completely and wholeheartedly disagree. I'm guessing you read this... "It is HARD to advance as a macro-oriented Zerg; much more so than Protoss or Terran, in my opinion" and got offended because you play protoss or terran. Notice I said it's hard to advance as zerg, not that it's super easy to play Terran or Protoss. Let's check out some more paragraphs that have this same theme... The Size of a mistake that will lose a Zerg a game is much smaller than a mistake that will lose a Terran or Protoss a game...This is in no way belittling of Terran or Protoss, but it's true. Because of the nature of the the larvae system, a Zerg cannot continuously build drones and units. This means that as a Zerg payer interested in becoming the best player we possibly can be, we need to know when an attack is likely to come and we need to skate a thin line between droning and switching to units at the last possible second. " That's about it. I'm sorry if you're offended, but this is a truth from my experience playing all three races through (at least) platinum. You can get amazingly far as protoss or terran by just making workers consistantly, making units consitantly, and having a logical unit mix. As zerg players, we don't have the luxuary of a command center or gateway. That isn't to say there aren't great advantages to the larvae system, but finding that line between droning and units is what makes it hard to get zerg to a decent level, and that needs to be stated for frustrated players struggling to break into zerg. This is the reason starting zerg is hard. Once you understand why, and really set out to fix it, you're going to improve so much faster. In no point in my writeup did I say Terran or Protoss are ezmode (by the way, using quotes implies it was in the text, which it was not). I'm sorry if you were offended, but there's really no reason to be. | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
The only real mechanic that Zerg has to deal with that Protoss and Terran don't is the dynamic between making drones and making units, and I'll grant you thats a pretty tricky thing to grasp. But you get advantages to make up for that, and all of the other aspects of Zerg have equally difficult counterparts in the other races, up to and including larvae inject. EDIT: I don't mean this as an attack on your post, and I know YOU didn't mean that Zerg is overall so much harder to play, but it seems like the people who are dumb enough to think that to begin with are going to seize on your post as evidence. You can't do anything about that, of course. I don't know. It just irritates me. Its like Zerg players don't want to get better and overcome the problems they have, and just blame everything on Zerg being sooo weak. | ||
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blue001
106 Posts
Next, when you say place your spawning pool at 200 minerals or 300 minerals, you're missing the point. It's not the resources that is the issue. It's the timing. By ignoring the effect of timing it also misleads players. If you've watched FPVODs of progamers in SCBW, in later stages of the game its okay to hover over thousands of minerals, it just means they have options in addition to the resources they have locked in to what they have scouted, they will sometimes float minerals and gas then throw down 4 factories for a timed attack, even cutting workers. If you lock in all your options, and you realise they weren't worth it then you're screwed. Of course if you lock in resources earlier you gain timing opportunities, and if you keep your options you lose these timings opportunities, but they aren't "wasted" the resources are still there to use, they just lose on certain timings but gain when you use them especially with increased scouting info to make better decision. I suppose timing is an important part of macromanagement and not just limited to economy. I think following your guide people can become better for sure, but they'll become better with some warped concepts. I mean can you really claim that worrying about micro, unit compositions, positioning, movement and usage of army in general is a waste of time? I think if low level players think like that they'll lose an important part of starcraft, infact the strategical things often change games more so at higher levels but it is still important at lower levels. I've seen time and time again shit players who can build an army, but have no clue how to use them that I can obliterate them with a lesser army. They just park their army rallied to some spot infront of their base, no clue when to attack or what units to build, then I will have fun with them with drops or mutalisks, or just win with a counter army with better micro. I mean you claim its hard to develop and gives you small advantage but this is blatantly misleading. Micro is fundamental in starcraft and most of the time separates winning and losing. Strategy is really complex, and unless you're a strategical genius mastermind it's hard to pin down everything. I don't think there can be a general guide about micromanagement or strategy that's for sure, you'll need experience and genius to manuever and build units that take advantage of certain terrain, and to pull off favourable engagements. To be honest even at the highest levels of the game, there are many players who lack timing and judgement, when watching as an observer at least on the same level as say Flash in SCBW. I think your strategy section makes sense but then you talk about zerg making units at the last possible second. Doesn't this contradict your strategy paragraphs? You claim strategy is about arranging expenditure of resources to accomplish a goal, yes I know this statement is oversimplified but that's not the issue here. You also claim you have to keep your resources very low at all times and use all larvae. Then how can you now claim to switch to units at the last possible time, if you had exhausted all your options by spending resources and using up all larvae. Simply put, you missed an entire important section in the analysis macromanagement, and simply focused on resources where here timing would be more important. It is ONLY AFTER you scout( or know from experience/probabilities) the opponent's timings and what he is doing then you spend on workers or units. If hes pushing out with mass bioball at 6:30, you can setup lings to backstab him ahead of time, and have a complete defense against his army, rather than scraping whatever unit you can at the last second, and possibly losing drones in the process. I also have to mention that you can think of workers as an investment for more resources in the future at the expense of short term timings, and it takes a while for them to payoff since they cost you 1 supply and gather 5 minerals at a time while costing 50, so a timing attack makes you vulnerable because while you've sunk the supply and resources in a drone, it takes a while for them recoup their cost. I think you're right in many aspects yet in your own guide you're undermining yourself, saying things in reverse order. I give this guide a 3/10 because it is a guide focused on helping improving zergs by means of teaching concepts. Yet the concepts aren't expressed in a logical order, it has contradictions and the understanding is very limited, glossing over important parts of the game(not even mentioning maps) and only giving some VERY basic points. | ||
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tampix
France20 Posts
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4782428/ | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 21 2011 20:27 blue001 wrote: You missed one thing, you forgot to define what is a "macro-centric" zerg. As far as I know every player on starcraft is a macro player, you can't play starcraft without managing your base. Second good macro is subjective, even though you state good macro is keeping your resources low and spending up larva and not getting supply blocked, this is true to an extent. But resources are more like options, if you keep your resources low you have limited options, the longer time you take to spend your resources you save your options, and you can make a better expenditure into your larva if you have more scouting information and therefore know what to spend your larva on. So I think both your statements on resources and that idle larvae is wasting larvae is misleading. Take the simplest case. 8pool. Players will keep 3 larva to produce 6 lings, this is clear they're saving the resource for an early timed attack. You mention larvae as a resource at the end of your guide but preach the opposite in the beginning highly contradictory. Next, when you say place your spawning pool at 200 minerals or 300 minerals, you're missing the point. It's not the resources that is the issue. It's the timing. By ignoring the effect of timing it also misleads players. If you've watched FPVODs of progamers in SCBW, in later stages of the game its okay to hover over thousands of minerals, it just means they have options in addition to the resources they have locked in to what they have scouted, they will sometimes float minerals and gas then throw down 4 factories for a timed attack, even cutting workers. If you lock in all your options, and you realise they weren't worth it then you're screwed. Of course if you lock in resources earlier you gain timing opportunities, and if you keep your options you lose these timings opportunities, but they aren't "wasted" the resources are still there to use, they just lose on certain timings but gain when you use them especially with increased scouting info to make better decision. I suppose timing is an important part of macromanagement and not just limited to economy. I think following your guide people can become better for sure, but they'll become better with some warped concepts. I mean can you really claim that worrying about micro, unit compositions, positioning, movement and usage of army in general is a waste of time? I think if low level players think like that they'll lose an important part of starcraft, infact the strategical things often change games more so at higher levels but it is still important at lower levels. I've seen time and time again shit players who can build an army, but have no clue how to use them that I can obliterate them with a lesser army. They just park their army rallied to some spot infront of their base, no clue when to attack or what units to build, then I will have fun with them with drops or mutalisks, or just win with a counter army with better micro. I mean you claim its hard to develop and gives you small advantage but this is blatantly misleading. Micro is fundamental in starcraft and most of the time separates winning and losing. Strategy is really complex, and unless you're a strategical genius mastermind it's hard to pin down everything. I don't think there can be a general guide about micromanagement or strategy that's for sure, you'll need experience and genius to manuever and build units that take advantage of certain terrain, and to pull off favourable engagements. To be honest even at the highest levels of the game, there are many players who lack timing and judgement, when watching as an observer at least on the same level as say Flash in SCBW. I think your strategy section makes sense but then you talk about zerg making units at the last possible second. Doesn't this contradict your strategy paragraphs? You claim strategy is about arranging expenditure of resources to accomplish a goal, yes I know this statement is oversimplified but that's not the issue here. You also claim you have to keep your resources very low at all times and use all larvae. Then how can you now claim to switch to units at the last possible time, if you had exhausted all your options by spending resources and using up all larvae. Simply put, you missed an entire important section in the analysis macromanagement, and simply focused on resources where here timing would be more important. It is ONLY AFTER you scout( or know from experience/probabilities) the opponent's timings and what he is doing then you spend on workers or units. If hes pushing out with mass bioball at 6:30, you can setup lings to backstab him ahead of time, and have a complete defense against his army, rather than scraping whatever unit you can at the last second, and possibly losing drones in the process. I also have to mention that you can think of workers as an investment for more resources in the future at the expense of short term timings, and it takes a while for them to payoff since they cost you 1 supply and gather 5 minerals at a time while costing 50, so a timing attack makes you vulnerable because while you've sunk the supply and resources in a drone, it takes a while for them recoup their cost. I think you're right in many aspects yet in your own guide you're undermining yourself, saying things in reverse order. I give this guide a 3/10 because it is a guide focused on helping improving zergs by means of teaching concepts. Yet the concepts aren't expressed in a logical order, it has contradictions and the understanding is very limited, glossing over important parts of the game(not even mentioning maps) and only giving some VERY basic points. You're missing so many of the points of the post. Let's take a look at some of the points. statements on resources and that idle larvae is wasting larvae is misleading. I say very specifically that floating above 2 larvae is a waste of larvae. If you have 3 or more for 15 (ingame) seconds, you just killed 1 potential larvae. One more larvae will not spawn out of that hatchery untill you have 2 or less larvae. Also, this is to be taken into context with the larvae is a resource. Notice I said keep your resources as close to 0 as possible unless "you have a damn good reason not to". I'd say that saving for those 3 lings is a damn good reason. Next you say that by saying place the spawning pool at exactly 200 minerals, i'm ignoring timing, which I'm not. I don't care when you time your spawning pool. 6-200 pool. When you decide to put down your spawning pool, you should do it in the most precise, efficient manner possible. If my spawning pool timing was 15, or after I put guys in gas, or whatever, my money should be at 200 when I place it. I don't see how you can argue this. Planning on throwing down a gas and pool at the same time, therefore you'd need 225? Well, you could place that gas earlier and not effect your pool timing at all, which is more efficient. Hatch and pool at the same time? Wasteful. Why bank 500 when you could have placed one earlier and got the benefit from that tech earlier without effecting the other tech? You later say that you'll see BW pros bank several thousand minerals to place 4 factories at the same time for a timing attack, which is wrong. The only time you'd ever see 4 factories being placed at the same time was after maxed for some big reinforcement (because they can no longer constantly spend on units/SCV's), and even then, probably not. Why? Because by waiting to get to that couple thousand, they're missing time they could have had those factories done. Before they're maxxed, they're killing potential units. If you're planning a 4 fact timing attack, whats the use at saving to plant them all at the same time? There isn't one. You can place the first factory when you have the gas for it and start pumping out units while placing the second, and so on. You claim that developing your micro mechanics is key because you can drop or use mutalisks with a "lesser" army and still win. Remember the scouting paragraph? Overlords should be everywhere( especially around your base). If the player is looking at his minimap like he should, all he has to do is move his lings around where your dropship is headed and keep macroing, or if he sees those mutalisks, he just has to move his hydras, or whatever his anti-air is over there and you can't do much damage. I'm not saying that micromanagement isn't important here, but your premise is just flawed. The point of micromanagement isn't to win with a lesser army, its to maximize the effect of your army, which should be just as big as his. If you could get 3 more kills out of microing your hydras a bit better or have 15 more units because you were paying attention to your macro, which would you do? I can tell you I'll take those 15 more units every time. The point where good micromanagement becomes more important is when there is little to differentiate each player by terms of macromanagement. Will you EVER see Jaedong having that beautiful mutalisk micro while he's floating 800 minerals off 2 base? no. Why? He can get some extra kills, but later he's going to get steamrolled because his opp just has more stuff. You claim that by spending our resources as we get them we're going to get suprised by a bunch of units and lose immediatley. Yep, and I have no problem with that. Why? Because we're going to suffer a BUNCH of stupid losses like that (which I pointed out already in the guide) and eventually, you're going to develop into a player like IdrA who is going to have that "magical" sense of when to build what stuff because you've been steamrolled like this so many times. You're going to be scouting and.. drone...drone...drone..."he's chronoboosting his cybernetics core"...ling...ling...ling... By suffering these stupid loses, you're going to develop the game sense to allow you to know when an attack is probably coming way before it does. It's not like your scouting drone is going to get there and the next second you're going to have 4 zealots on your ramp. You're going to be spending your money, scout something that you know from experience is something aggressive, and then from then on you're going to start making units until you're satisfied, then keep making drones. I know your heart is in the right place, but many of these concerns are untrue, or just not something I think a low level player needs to concern himself with to the same degree. No one is every going to say controlling your units properly is not important, but ask MarineKingPrime, probably one of the best micro players out there right now, if he'd rather micro a bit more and save 3 more marines or get 10 more marines, the answer's still going to be obvious. Eeking out a little bit more efficiency is good, but not at the cost of letting your macro slip and miss out on potential units. I'm not saying do something stupid like 1A a ton of marines into a 200/200 army of banelings, but micromanagement and unit control are FAR less important to a players development than just having more stuff. | ||
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heroyi
United States1064 Posts
Ehhh technically he is right. I mean Bisu and Flash were known to have a great macro sense. Bisu was known to throw down 5 gateways before he expanded so that way when the expo was running he could immediately pump units out, unlike the traditional method of expo then laying down production facilities. Obviously this is risky and you do need good intel. So on to your guide: bronze zerg and my god this is a nice read. I use to be a Terran player but switched because of it being somewhat a boring class and I hated the Protoss mechanic. I honestly didn't like zerg in sc1, but you know what I give it a try and my god the best choice. However I can't help but feel zerg is a bit UP since the mechanic is much MUCH less forgiving than the other two races. When I finally learned about the concept of "droning" up or making army units, and with some of Idra's vids, I have to say it is a very interesting race and it makes you appreciate the game's creativity, too bad Blizzard is falling apart :/ Question: What would you say is a good way to scout as zerg. I mean terran has scan and protoss has a unit that specializes in this, very cheap too. Zerg, however, doesn't have the most reliable way. Drones can't get through so that leaves either scouting from harassing,like mutas, or suiciding ovies. Should I consider suiciding ovies since it seems it is more cost efficient than the scan (one scan=one mule that can mine 240/270 minerals, zerg ovie scouting cost=200)? (its 200 cause I am assuming you need to replace that lost ovie for the supply) but then by losing ovies periodically you would have to compensate your gameplay getting more ovies to not be supply capped... | ||
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ruff48
United States7 Posts
zerg ovie scouting cost=200)? (its 200 cause I am assuming you need to replace that lost ovie for the supply) but then by losing ovies periodically you would have to compensate your gameplay getting more ovies to not be supply capped... I heard in a video with IdrA that he likes to get overlord speed right after lair and even if you don't get it it is still essential to use overlords to scout. | ||
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friscosav
United States71 Posts
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ChoiBoi
United States130 Posts
I actually bind all of my injecting queens onto the hotkey right before my first hatch key (this is a BW habit), and I use the minimap to inject. I actually hotkey the drones from the newest expansion onto 0, in case of harass, but I guess it's up to the player, huh? I'd have to say, did you actually go from Bronze, to Plat, to Bronze, to Plat, and then back to Plat again? You sir, know what the hell perseverance actually means | ||
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Uranium
United States1077 Posts
Hellion drop Marine drop Tank on cliff drop (haha who am I kidding, this one is too hard for me, I just t-down LT) Banshees 2rax Marine/SCV allin Marine/Tank push 4-gate void ray rush phoenix rush DTs before you can even GET to a macro game. Most of these rushes go off before I get my second base saturated. So it's a matter of finding a basic build that can be adapted to whatever you have scouted, and having your cards set up properly in case the shit hits the fan. Which it will in a good 70% of games, because nobody decent is going to just sit back and let you power drones. The thing that I have found to be most effective against a lot of these cheese (especially from Terran) is to put a Spore Crawler in each mineral line, every game, no matter what. You should be getting an Evo Chamber anyway so it's only 300 minerals to protect both your mineral lines from air attacks. Even if your opponent doesn't engage the Spore directly, it takes away their positional advantage and forces them to position their air units over the inside of your base, where they can be attacked, instead of endlessly poking you from the edge of your cliff/mineral line. I can't tell you the number of games that I would have lost if it weren't for that hero Spore. | ||
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