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One key thing to remember about learning to be a solid macro player is that when people say that its more important to macro than micro they are not joking or saying it for the sake of it. It really is true.
Lets say you have 2 roaches engaging 6-7 marines. With some pretty good micro (retreating the hurt one, etc), you might manage to snipe 3-4 marines without losing a roach. Under normal a-move cirucmstances, you might kill that many but lose both roaches. Or you would just retreat and not kill any of them. With the micro, you've squeezed extra resources out of them. But how many production cycles did you miss while furiously microing those two units?
I can't remember which pro said it, but in a furious micro battle you might eke out an extra few hundred minerals worth of value out of your army, only to go back to base and find you've floated a thousand minerals during the fight and your production buildings were sitting idle.
If you can do beastly micro while macroing well, by all means, do it. But thats something that even the pros have to work hard at, and I doubt you can multitask like that as well as you think you can, so given that you largely have to choose one or the other, macro always comes first.
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deleted post. responding to post i misread -_-
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Great work however I think you may be giving zerg users a little too much credit. I'm a Zerg player (not a great one by all means. Plat) and I find it hard believe you could go from plat terran to bronze playing as zerg. I do agree that Zerg is harder to play however that "thin line" we are skating on is really not as thin as you make it sound. You dont have to play perfect to advance in the ladder as zerg.. I am living proof of that. You shouldn't think of Zerg as the macro race and then going into a game focusing on pumping out as many drones as possible. Thinking like that and also thinking that Zerg is the underpowered race isnt going to help you going into a game. You need to have confidence; each race stands a chance against any other race. Without confidence you will have already lost in your mind before anything has even happened yet. Everyone thinks Zerg has to be miles ahead of their opponent to even stand a chance, and thats why they lose.
I'm sure many people including myself can benefit from your post, but remember that if you dont have faith in your race then you already lost.
One last comment id like to say here that Zerg shouldnt be thought of as the "macro race" though they are easy to macro as any race can focus on the macro game. Zerg is the race with the most adaptability
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I do understand that macro is the most important thing to improve for sub-Diamond players, but that's a content-free statement unless you define what you mean by macro. I have seen definitions from "always make workers, never get supply capped, keep minerals/gas low" all the way up to "everything that isn't microing units during battles."
Neither of those definitions is all that useful for a beginning Zerg player. You can macro perfectly under the first definition making just queens, drones and overlords up to 200/200 (good luck reaching Diamond that way) and it doesn't address the question of drones vs. units at all. Under the second definition all you are basically saying is "focus on everything but micro" which is accurate but largely useless. It's like saying something is not an elephant - it might be true, but it doesn't tell you very much.
The main point I took from the OP was that figuring out what your opponent is doing and reacting appropriately to it is a fundamental part of macro-oriented Zerg play, from Bronze on up. Learning to macro properly as Zerg means learning how to do it. Other races can postpone learning it until low-mid Diamond, as the 'diamond on stalkers and 1a' thread proves. We can't, or we'll be stuck in Bronze/Silver forever, either losing to mid-game pushes through overdroning or overproducing units for no reason except paranoia.
I do try to follow the minimalist worker/supply/minerals advice above and it has helped me. I've just always felt like it misses something, and I think my point above (scouting and reacting to the opponent) may be the missing piece of the puzzle. I could be wrong, of course. If anyone disagrees (maybe this is one of those things, like micro, that I should wait on until I'm Diamond and can start learning to play the game for real) then I'd love to hear your reasons - but if you tell me to "just macro" then please give me a definition for it that addresses my points in the second paragraph.
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On February 22 2011 09:33 heroyi wrote:
Question: What would you say is a good way to scout as zerg. I mean terran has scan and protoss has a unit that specializes in this, very cheap too. Zerg, however, doesn't have the most reliable way. Drones can't get through so that leaves either scouting from harassing,like mutas, or suiciding ovies. Should I consider suiciding ovies since it seems it is more cost efficient than the scan (one scan=one mule that can mine 240/270 minerals, zerg ovie scouting cost=200)? (its 200 cause I am assuming you need to replace that lost ovie for the supply) but then by losing ovies periodically you would have to compensate your gameplay getting more ovies to not be supply capped...
Overlords and lings. I think overlord speed and metabolic boost are the two most important upgrades to get for a zerg army in the long term, and will be the best 200/200 you've ever spent. I spread overlords all around my base to spot drops, put one at each expo, and have a few outside his base if possible (if I'm not going muta and they're going phoenix or something, you don't want overlords over there). If I really need to see inside his base I spend 50/100 to make it an overseer and swoop around his base. Unless he has a lot of units or cannons in his base, you're going to make it out because overseers are so fast. In fact one thing I'm working on is getting a 3-4 overseer hitsquad going for continuous scouting/contaminate mid-lategame. If you have overlord speed and an overseer or two, nothing he has in his base should be out of your view, and you can seriously mess with his production with contaminate, and I don't know why we don't see squads of overseers more from gifted high level players like IdrA, Nestea, or Ret. The gas expenditure is quite large to get more than a few per match, but I'm playing around with making it work.
Lings of course are the ultimate army spotting tool, and can quickly run anywhere on the map, and are a great unit to be able to crank out to reinforce if you get rid of units like colossus (assuming they're not really zealot heavy) in ZvP, and of course are standard in ZvT.
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On February 22 2011 11:31 KarboZ wrote:
Great work however I think you may be giving zerg users a little too much credit. I'm a Zerg player (not a great one by all means. Plat) and I find it hard believe you could go from plat terran to bronze playing as zerg. I do agree that Zerg is harder to play however that "thin line" we are skating on is really not as thin as you make it sound. You dont have to play perfect to advance in the ladder as zerg.. I am living proof of that. You shouldn't think of Zerg as the macro race and then going into a game focusing on pumping out as many drones as possible. Thinking like that and also thinking that Zerg is the underpowered race isnt going to help you going into a game. You need to have confidence; each race stands a chance against any other race. Without confidence you will have already lost in your mind before anything has even happened yet. Everyone thinks Zerg has to be miles ahead of their opponent to even stand a chance, and thats why they lose.
I'm sure many people including myself can benefit from your post, but remember that if you dont have faith in your race then you already lost.
One last comment id like to say here that Zerg shouldnt be thought of as the "macro race" though they are easy to macro as any race can focus on the macro game. Zerg is the race with the most adaptability
I feel like if that line isn't as thin as I make it out in the OP, then you're not playing up to zerg's econ potential. Watch allot of IdrA games, especially ZvP and ZvZ (zergs are quite agressive once mutas are out in ZvT). I can't tell you how many games I've watched of his and I thought he was going to lose straight up really early, but those roaches pop into position like 2 seconds before banelings are trying to knock down his natural. If you're trying to play like that, that line is quite thin indeed, and I feel like players who skate it at that level will have much more success long term than a player who plays more safely, getting more units or earlier units than he really needs.
Also, I by no means ever said zerg was underpowered. Certainly they're very fragile early, but are quite strong late game.
Also, as to going from plat to silver twice, I don't know what to say other than it happened. Maybe its just the ladder brackets I was in, but most players were very agressive, and 4 gates and bunker rushes (5 rax reaper when I started) were quite common, and I just lost so many games with 2 lings and ton of drones.
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First, I'd like to say that I am in love with Zerg. Bronze.
I've played a grand total of 12 1v1 games so far, but I have chosen this game as my number one game and will play it a lot more.
Hot keys are still fairly sketchy and my apm is really low but I'm going to practice my hot keys and standardize them eventually.
Thanks for your post this really helps not only a zerg but every single other player.
I like that most of what Day9 said on his newbie Macro Hotkeys, apm video was said here with a lot of zerg specific stuff thrown in and the ideas expanded. It really helps that I'm not getting any kind of mixed message.
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On February 22 2011 12:43 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 09:33 heroyi wrote:
Question: What would you say is a good way to scout as zerg. I mean terran has scan and protoss has a unit that specializes in this, very cheap too. Zerg, however, doesn't have the most reliable way. Drones can't get through so that leaves either scouting from harassing,like mutas, or suiciding ovies. Should I consider suiciding ovies since it seems it is more cost efficient than the scan (one scan=one mule that can mine 240/270 minerals, zerg ovie scouting cost=200)? (its 200 cause I am assuming you need to replace that lost ovie for the supply) but then by losing ovies periodically you would have to compensate your gameplay getting more ovies to not be supply capped... Overlords and lings. I think overlord speed and metabolic boost are the two most important upgrades to get for a zerg army in the long term, and will be the best 200/200 you've ever spent. I spread overlords all around my base to spot drops, put one at each expo, and have a few outside his base if possible (if I'm not going muta and they're going phoenix or something, you don't want overlords over there). If I really need to see inside his base I spend 50/100 to make it an overseer and swoop around his base. Unless he has a lot of units or cannons in his base, you're going to make it out because overseers are so fast. In fact one thing I'm working on is getting a 3-4 overseer hitsquad going for continuous scouting/contaminate mid-lategame. If you have overlord speed and an overseer or two, nothing he has in his base should be out of your view, and you can seriously mess with his production with contaminate, and I don't know why we don't see squads of overseers more from gifted high level players like IdrA, Nestea, or Ret. The gas expenditure is quite large to get more than a few per match, but I'm playing around with making it work. Lings of course are the ultimate army spotting tool, and can quickly run anywhere on the map, and are a great unit to be able to crank out to reinforce if you get rid of units like colossus (assuming they're not really zealot heavy) in ZvP, and of course are standard in ZvT.
hrmmm...I never really considered about overseers...I have never used their ability nor really know anything about them except "oh opponent might get some gay cloak unit, better make a overseer just in case."
Are they are really that fast that you can use to scout? I will have to consider using them more then even though they are quite costly :/
Also, I failed to mention that my main concern was getting the early scouting (around beginning of mid game). For terran or protoss is not a big deal since you have access to intel whenever you want (scan/observer). I am concerned with zerg because I, although I could be wrong, feel that by the time lair and ovie speed is finished then it will be late (or very close to) to scouting out what tech tree the opponent goes (i.e banshee rush, HT or colossi etc...). How does one proceed to get such "reading" on his opponent BEFORE lair tech (assume opponent has walled off) and before the opponent can proceed to rush with whatever path he chose?
BTW I do use ovie speed to scout and it is nice. The nice fat health with a speed upgrade can get you an adequate amount of intel before the opponent reacts (also there is that small chance he/she will overreact and think it is a small drop lol). However, it does get quite costly to be constantly replacing them...
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On February 22 2011 14:04 heroyi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 12:43 Arisen wrote:On February 22 2011 09:33 heroyi wrote:
Question: What would you say is a good way to scout as zerg. I mean terran has scan and protoss has a unit that specializes in this, very cheap too. Zerg, however, doesn't have the most reliable way. Drones can't get through so that leaves either scouting from harassing,like mutas, or suiciding ovies. Should I consider suiciding ovies since it seems it is more cost efficient than the scan (one scan=one mule that can mine 240/270 minerals, zerg ovie scouting cost=200)? (its 200 cause I am assuming you need to replace that lost ovie for the supply) but then by losing ovies periodically you would have to compensate your gameplay getting more ovies to not be supply capped... Overlords and lings. I think overlord speed and metabolic boost are the two most important upgrades to get for a zerg army in the long term, and will be the best 200/200 you've ever spent. I spread overlords all around my base to spot drops, put one at each expo, and have a few outside his base if possible (if I'm not going muta and they're going phoenix or something, you don't want overlords over there). If I really need to see inside his base I spend 50/100 to make it an overseer and swoop around his base. Unless he has a lot of units or cannons in his base, you're going to make it out because overseers are so fast. In fact one thing I'm working on is getting a 3-4 overseer hitsquad going for continuous scouting/contaminate mid-lategame. If you have overlord speed and an overseer or two, nothing he has in his base should be out of your view, and you can seriously mess with his production with contaminate, and I don't know why we don't see squads of overseers more from gifted high level players like IdrA, Nestea, or Ret. The gas expenditure is quite large to get more than a few per match, but I'm playing around with making it work. Lings of course are the ultimate army spotting tool, and can quickly run anywhere on the map, and are a great unit to be able to crank out to reinforce if you get rid of units like colossus (assuming they're not really zealot heavy) in ZvP, and of course are standard in ZvT. hrmmm...I never really considered about overseers...I have never used their ability nor really know anything about them except "oh opponent might get some gay cloak unit, better make a overseer just in case." Are they are really that fast that you can use to scout? I will have to consider using them more then even though they are quite costly :/ Also, I failed to mention that my main concern was getting the early scouting (around beginning of mid game). For terran or protoss is not a big deal since you have access to intel whenever you want (scan/observer). I am concerned with zerg because I, although I could be wrong, feel that by the time lair and ovie speed is finished then it will be late (or very close to) to scouting out what tech tree the opponent goes (i.e banshee rush, HT or colossi etc...). How does one proceed to get such "reading" on his opponent BEFORE lair tech (assume opponent has walled off) and before the opponent can proceed to rush with whatever path he chose? BTW I do use ovie speed to scout and it is nice. The nice fat health with a speed upgrade can get you an adequate amount of intel before the opponent reacts (also there is that small chance he/she will overreact and think it is a small drop lol). However, it does get quite costly to be constantly replacing them...
When faced with a wall early game before overlord speed is out, just sacrifice an overlord. It sucks that you lose a farm for it, but you need to, plain and simple if you don't know what he's doing. People will say anywhere from 4:30 to 5:45 is a good time, but you need to know what you're looking for and figure out timings, rather than just sticking to a rule of thumb. Most times, you can get most of the info to make an informed decision with your scouting drone. If you're worried about a banshee rush and you kept your drone alive a decent amount of time, if he wasn't on 2 gas, it's very delayed. If he's on 2 gas, 2/3 rax all ins are less of a threat (although you can't rule them out). If you're worried about 4 gate, if he's on 2 gas, in my experience, it's less likely he'll 4 gate. It all comes down to analysis of your replays to figure out what you're afraid of, and making timings for yourself based on that. These timings will change as you rank up higher and higher, as players will (generally) have much better timings in the higher leagues.
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Awesome guide man! Thanks for putting in the effort on this guide, I'm a macro zerg and have a thing or two extra to think about in my games now.
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This is very helpful, thank you man.
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On February 23 2011 14:08 Maynarde wrote:
Awesome guide man! Thanks for putting in the effort on this guide, I'm a macro zerg and have a thing or two extra to think about in my games now.
glad to hear it's helping people
On an unrelated note, constructive criticism of things to add would be great for anyone who spots something that would be useful.
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Cool guide, I hate the terranezmode overtone, but I'll let it slide 
You should add replays that are noteworthy. As good as your guide is, visual learning for for SCII is just always going to be superior. I think replays of quick expansions holding off various all in's with a written analysis is the highest value an aspiring zerg player can absorb.
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Woops fail reading comp is fail.
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On February 24 2011 15:07 manicshock wrote:
Tbh, I don't think zerg is too difficult if you get into the rhythm. I'm a terran player, who decided to take zerg as my off race (because it was touted as the difficult race). The main problem is mostly I don't play nearly as often as zerg. My first ZvP I knew the general things but it was just way different. It reminded me of when I tried variations away from 3 rax and it just felt entirely new. I can see where people come from when they say zerg's the hardest, but it isn't nearly as overwhelmingly difficult as people seem to make it if you have the basic skillset and mindset to do it.
My original point: maybe you just weren't cut out to be zerg or you simply didn't have a basic skillset at all and winged it as terran/protoss against really bad people? 99% of my terran till diamond was micro. I'd perfect my BO to a point AKA try to avoid supply blocks and push at 7 minutes then micro them into oblivion basically. But then I reached a point in my games where it was closer to BO loss and learn new strats. I learned zerg around the same time and been playing at maybe a plat level for a while.
Thanks for you undoubtedly sterling advice, but I don't see how this applies at all (I'm questioning if this is a troll)
As always, any helpful feedback is appreciated.
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Woops fail reading comp is fail.
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On February 25 2011 11:04 manicshock wrote:
You say zerg's hard, I tell you it's difficult but no where near to the point that OP stressed when he struggled. Maybe he had a hard time with zerg because he just started as zerg, but I never had any problems I guess because I became a decent player as terran first. Which is where basic skillsets come in. The whole "Zomg zerg impossible to play" is bull as far as I'm concerned, it just takes focus and hotkeys.
Noone said zerg is impossible to play? That's the whole point of the guide...
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there is no way in hell you went from platinum terran to bronze zerg then back to platinum protoss to bronze zerg ... i just dont see how anyone who managed to make it to platinum can tank all the way down to bronze just by changing races... do u realize how long it takes to tank down a league?? my god. Other than that good thread i just find this hard to believe the whole tanking business.
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Really well written and helpful. I actually didn't know about the F keys being location specific hotkeys. I'll try that with the rally now. I actually used to be a high gold zerg player and barely able to pull my stuff together to keep that position. Then I realized how poor my gameplay was and I started working on my macro real hard. Dropped down to low silver and I'm working my way back up.
I think something worth noting about zerg battles is the importance of surrounding your opponent. You always hear casters, coaches, etc talking about "getting a nice surround". It is extremely important for the zerg to do this. Zerg armies are much weaker (well... just less efficient) than the other armies. So fight like a small and mobile army. Striking surgically and flanking opponents is key to Zerg army micro. Tanks unseiged and marines too far ahead? Punish them with a swarm of lings from behind. Drop a couple of roaches in the main with overlords or throw down a nydus (often I feel that scream is more intimidating than any army). His whole army pushing with no defense left in his base? Send 10 lings to kill some SCVs and Probes. I find crashing my army into any other race's army head on usually ends up in a loss.
Also another thing I've found important is while my army may be very fast and capable of counter attacking, don't. It usually just puts you behind. A patient zerg is a happy zerg.
The zerg army is scrappy, not necessarily powerful and the race is very hard to learn/master. Once I got this in my head, my gameplay significantly improved.
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I'm just going to tell you a small secret that is a helpful tip. If you want to be a macro player. Here is the key. LARVAE / DRONES / MAXING OUT ARMY AS FAST AS YOU FReAKING CAN. the MOMENT YOU ARE MAXED. ****KEY MOMENT WEN YOU ARE MAXED AND HAVE ENOUGH LARVAE TO REMAX QUICKLY AND A GOOD ENOUGH INCOME TO TO DO SO*** YOU SHOULD ATACK AND IMEADIATELY REMAX.
a good tactic is expand anytime you have 300 extra mins and no larvae to spend on drones or units. also expand everytime you are atacking with a maxed army. and remax while its dying. there are a lot more tips i could give but i think the best tip for any low level player is if you are capable of hitting the 200/200 food mark much faster than your opponent then you now have your macro down. Now its time to worry about unit compositions and build orders.
ANOTHER thing early - mid game WHEN I SAY learn to MAX your ARMY as fast as you can REMEMBER you can MAKE DRONES AND UNITS AT SAME TIME I like to make half drone half units all game unless im atacking if im atacking thats wen i am remaxing all units. there is more to this but this is helpful enough for lower end players to break into plat or diamond.
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EPT
