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I was watching the GSTL recently and noticed ImYongHwa do a peculiar wall-in during a PvZ match (which figures since this wall-in is so, well, Korean). Here's an example I created:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/i3UmL.png) A smarter wall-in?
The reason this wall-in caught my attention at all was because it wasn't the standard PvZ wall off I'm sure you all are familiar with:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/smcfj.png) The wall in you all know and love.
Now you may argue that the standard wall in is better for several reasons. A main reason I see many people use this wall in is because of the fact that your pylon is much less exposed to zerglings/banelings/etc. Since your pylon has much less hp than your gateway and cybernetics core, it's best left where it can't be threatened. A less obvious reason for the familiar wall-in might be that on some maps it creates a corridor that you can line up zealots along, if the case arises that you need to.
However, I argue that the pylon really isn't the the weak point in your wall-in, it's your zealot. Wzp's recently popularized 3 roach rush speedling all-in makes direct use of this fact, roaches can range your zealot from the low ground.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/mxm99.png) Shenanigans!
The fact that roaches can target the weakest point of your wall even if you force field your ramp makes this rush a nightmare. Perhaps the best response is to wall-off completely with a pylon but then that pylon becomes exposed too. This is where our new wall-in really shines. The weakest parts of your wall are all out of harms way!
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/bKvxD.png) Can't touch this.
Still not convinced that this is the wall in you should be doing? Another benefit of this wall-in is that the initial pylon placement gives you more walling in options. Options baby yea!
Scout a 6 pool? Wall off completely (if you feel that's the appropriate response):
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/gqdBl.png) And without needing an extra early pylon.
Another nice feature about the pylon placement is that since it's hugging your gateway it can't be completely surrounded and it gives you a nice pocket to tuck a zealot in. Other posts have also noted that it allows you to open up your ramp to allow easier access to your main/natural (or if you get an archon stuck) during the midgame by killing off that pylon rather than a key structure.
Feel like doing a pseudo old wall-in? You can do that too (although I wouldn't recommend it):
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/duLKS.png) The hipster way to wall-in.
Of course this wall-in is not without its own drawbacks. For one it is more vulnerable to baneling busts. Although personally I feel that its benefits outweigh this small drawback. Plus, I feel that baneling busts aren't very popular anymore and aren't very effective against Protoss in the first place. It has also been pointed out that this wall-in gives you slightly less vision outside of your main, but the difference seems negligible.
There is one spawn location that I know of where this wall-in is not possible, the 5'oclock position on Delta Quadrant (but that ramp is seriously flawed, go check it out for yourself). If there are any more spawn locations like this let me know and I'll update the information here.
If there's anything I didn't cover about this wall-in or if there is some glaring weakness too it, please discuss! Hope you enjoyed this guide =].
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oooo I am amazed :F
I'm actually going to be trying this out! So cool because it's cheaper to react to a 6 pool <3
Thanks for interesting and entertaining writeup! Although, I would really like to see the match that you saw this in as well!
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I remember seeing that in the gstl and thinking it was a weird wall in... I now understand, thank you
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seems like a much better way to wall in just gotta be on the look out for bling bust but as you said there now much of a problem.
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This is really interesting. I'll take my chances being vulnerable to banelings if it helps me against fast roaches.
Does this type of wall-in give you any less vision down the ramp?
Thanks for putting this together.
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On February 19 2011 16:18 DOMINOSC wrote:
seems like a much better way to wall in just gotta be on the look out for bling bust but as you said there now much of a problem.
Nah if you get banelings running up your ramp, FF the top and bottom of your ramp and let the sentries pop them all. Baneling bust is like the worst allin a zerg can do up a ramp.
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Whoa. That's actually really cool. Neat guide!
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It's kinda funny because if I recall correctly, this was among the first wall-ins Protosses did way back in the Beta, and around release there was a big shift towards using the just gateway + cyber core wallin.
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Wow thanks for sharing! Isn't it amazing how wonderful a game Starcraft is, where the smallest things can make such a difference and the smallest things keep evolving over time? First the Gate/Cyber was like, "omg can't believe I didn't think of that," and now this!
Gonna start using this now. And yeah I agree, bling busts aren't very common unless it's like a team game. Anyways, if you're good and pay attention you should be ready to FF the ramp if there's blings. By the time he busts you'll probably already have more pylons ready too.
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i dont like that cyber core and/or gateway being more exposed to the roaches on low ground... thats my main gripe about it... sure even with the standard wall-in the gateway/core can be hit by the roaches, but there are ways with the standard wall in to make those buildings less vulnerable.. if you lose the core its gg either way, and you can always pull probes if you need to with the standard wall in.. this new way gives more surface area for that core/gate to be surrounded by lings and the roaches still hitting from low ground
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On February 19 2011 16:09 CecilSunkure wrote:
oooo I am amazed :F
I'm actually going to be trying this out! So cool because it's cheaper to react to a 6 pool <3
Thanks for interesting and entertaining writeup! Although, I would really like to see the match that you saw this in as well!
I'm glad you like this as much as I do =].
I finally found the match. The reason it took me so long was because that GSL labeled IMYongHwa as a Terran player (I thought I was going crazy for a second). The wall-in didn't really come into play but here's the match if your interested.
GSTL Final Match 4: ST_July vs IMYongHwa
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On February 19 2011 16:31 AbeToss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 16:09 CecilSunkure wrote:
oooo I am amazed :F
I'm actually going to be trying this out! So cool because it's cheaper to react to a 6 pool <3
Thanks for interesting and entertaining writeup! Although, I would really like to see the match that you saw this in as well! I'm glad you like this as much as I do =]. I finally found the match. The reason it took me so long was because that GSL labeled IMYongHwa as a Terran player (I thought I was going crazy for a second). The wall-in didn't really come into play but here's the match if your interested. GSTL Final Match 4: ST_July vs IMYongHwa
Buahaha of course it's from YongHwa xD
Thanks for linking the match. I must not of seen this one because I only watched matches with Protoss (and it's labeled Terran D: ).
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Pretty interesting. It seems like from your first picture that even if a baneling bust were to occur and destroyed your zealot + pylon a single FF would still be able to cover that entire opening.
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On February 19 2011 16:21 AirbladeOrange wrote:
This is really interesting. I'll take my chances being vulnerable to banelings if it helps me against fast roaches.
Does this type of wall-in give you any less vision down the ramp?
Thanks for putting this together.
It does very slightly. The difference is hardly noticeable and you can still see down your ramp. I'll update the OP with this though.
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On February 19 2011 16:18 DOMINOSC wrote:
seems like a much better way to wall in just gotta be on the look out for bling bust but as you said there now much of a problem.
I agree. pylon will die to some blings no prob.
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Really good example of a picture with the roaches attacking from low ground with overlord sight, thats such a well thought out scenario and I'm sure it happens all the time. I will keep this in mind whenever I offrace now. Good stuffs
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On February 19 2011 16:28 eGoTricKShoT wrote:
i dont like that cyber core and/or gateway being more exposed to the roaches on low ground... thats my main gripe about it... sure even with the standard wall-in the gateway/core can be hit by the roaches, but there are ways with the standard wall in to make those buildings less vulnerable.. if you lose the core its gg either way, and you can always pull probes if you need to with the standard wall in.. this new way gives more surface area for that core/gate to be surrounded by lings and the roaches still hitting from low ground
Your right the roaches can still his the cybernetics core from the low ground, but this is still the case with the standard wall-in as you pointed out. And yes, there is more surface area for zerglings to attack the gateway and core but you should have a sentry or stalker out in time to deal with this. Really your zealot should be enough to deter zerglings from taking your whole wall down. Remember a cybernetics core has 1100 hp and armor.
Could you elaborate more on the ways to make the gateway/core less vulnerable with the standard wall-in?
Edit: I take this back, your gateway/core still has the same surface area (you could fit maybe 1 extra zergling in). Check out the pictures.
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Don't want to be losing my cybernetics core to 3 roaches =/
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On February 19 2011 16:50 andrewwiggin wrote:
Don't want to be losing my cybernetics core to 3 roaches =/
Just swap your core to the less vulnerable side if there is one. Your cybernetics core is not really the issue, it has plenty of hp whereas your zealot doesn't. No matter what wall-in you use your gateway and/or core will be in range of roaches.
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im digging this. I love small things I can do that will help me to slightly improve my game
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I also use a different walloff, although not like this one. The way I wall off allows you to be protected from both cheese and standard ling pokes as usual.
Ends up looking like this:
+ Show Spoiler +
You will have the minerals to start your pylon before the zealot pops out to wall off for a standard 14 pool, and also have the 3x3 space to drop a forge to wall off any super early pool (or another gateway if you prefer). The great part is that you can wall off with high HP buildings that buy plenty of time for warpgate to finish. The cyber core is far enough back that it cannot be picked off by roaches, leaving only gateways (or if you need the panic forge) exposed. It can't be baneling busted easily either, even though the pylon seems like a weak point. You can prevent this by just building another one behind it and stuffing more zealots into the little hole (or just use sentries and laugh like I do? idk).
I haven't had any problems ever with this wall, and can stop any and all cheese zerg can do. I have tried every combo, and this is absolutely the safest wall for a standard ramp.
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Speaking from the Zerg perspective, baneling bust all-ins are ridiculously risky and have horrible odds of success against toss, especially with the increase being seen in Toss players favouring a sentry-expand macro game. Baneling busting truly only works when there aren't sentries out AND you have a pylon to bust through (because wasting banelings on an opening the size of a single zealot is painful). Great new idea, crappy for anyone who was rocking the newest form of zerg cheese to the top of the ladder
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On February 19 2011 16:47 AbeToss wrote:
Could you elaborate more on the ways to make the gateway/core less vulnerable with the standard wall-in?
what i meant by making your gateway/cyber core less vulnerable is basically what you have in the second picture of the current standard wall in... you keep the core as far away from the edge of the wall as possible so the roaches cant range it from the low ground, or on certain maps if they can its usually only one roach that can (altho this isnt always true), and get that stalker out as soon as possible to stay out of range of the low ground roaches while still hitting them... they can switch to the gateway which is on the other side of the ramp but they wont kill it before 1-2 stalkers are able to kill off the 3 roaches - i explained the best i could, hope it made sense even without pictures which would make it more clear... with this new wall in that core can be hit by all 3 roaches + any reinforcments that come making it more vulnerable than the standard wall in
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The biggest problem I see with this is how vulnerable the pylon is. Unless you had a second pylon powering the wall in. As a zerg, I'd focus the zealot first then the pylon, or if the zealot is in hold position, I'd take out the pylon.
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really nice writeup
in my opening that wallin has one serious flaw tho
theres a zerling rush which includes all drones -> slipping through your zealot and if your zealot is not in a small tunnel he will die very fast -> you lose
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On February 19 2011 17:11 ToT)KnowMe( wrote:
really nice writeup
in my opening that wallin has one serious flaw tho
theres a zerling rush which includes all drones -> slipping through your zealot and if your zealot is not in a small tunnel he will die very fast -> you lose
Yeah, there's this, and the pylon is more exposed. There are weaknesses to both. Thanks for the writeup though!
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On February 19 2011 17:01 eGoTricKShoT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 16:47 AbeToss wrote:
Could you elaborate more on the ways to make the gateway/core less vulnerable with the standard wall-in?
what i meant by making your gateway/cyber core less vulnerable is basically what you have in the second picture of the current standard wall in... you keep the core as far away from the edge of the wall as possible so the roaches cant range it from the low ground, or on certain maps if they can its usually only one roach that can (altho this isnt always true), and get that stalker out as soon as possible to stay out of range of the low ground roaches while still hitting them... they can switch to the gateway which is on the other side of the ramp but they wont kill it before 1-2 stalkers are able to kill off the 3 roaches - i explained the best i could, hope it made sense even without pictures which would make it more clear... with this new wall in that core can be hit by all 3 roaches + any reinforcments that come making it more vulnerable than the standard wall in
Why wouldn't they attack the gateway first if it was more vulnerable? The point is that your zealot is the most vulnerable point of your wall in. Here's a replay to demonstrate. Notice that the roaches don't go for the gateway or core. They go for the zealot which causes the Protoss to move it out of the way, ending in a run-by.
It takes about 50 seconds for three roaches to kill a cybernetics core. Like you said yourself, a stalker can be out in time to keep them from doing so.
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On February 19 2011 17:00 Gooey wrote:I also use a different walloff, although not like this one. The way I wall off allows you to be protected from both cheese and standard ling pokes as usual. Ends up looking like this: + Show Spoiler +You will have the minerals to start your pylon before the zealot pops out to wall off for a standard 14 pool, and also have the 3x3 space to drop a forge to wall off any super early pool (or another gateway if you prefer). The great part is that you can wall off with high HP buildings that buy plenty of time for warpgate to finish. The cyber core is far enough back that it cannot be picked off by roaches, leaving only gateways (or if you need the panic forge) exposed. It can't be baneling busted easily either, even though the pylon seems like a weak point. You can prevent this by just building another one behind it and stuffing more zealots into the little hole (or just use sentries and laugh like I do? idk). I haven't had any problems ever with this wall, and can stop any and all cheese zerg can do. I have tried every combo, and this is absolutely the safest wall for a standard ramp.
My worry with that wall-in would be that the Zealot can still be picked off by rushed Roaches.
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On February 19 2011 17:10 EnTaroAdun411 wrote:
The biggest problem I see with this is how vulnerable the pylon is. Unless you had a second pylon powering the wall in. As a zerg, I'd focus the zealot first then the pylon, or if the zealot is in hold position, I'd take out the pylon.
This is why your 16 food pylon goes behind your wall in =]. If you scout an early rush you can wall off as I pointed out. Any other standard zergling pokes shouldn't be an issue with any wall in.
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Quite an interesting placement and strategy behind it. I like it a lot!
Gonna be trying out this new layout in custom games.
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On February 19 2011 17:17 Wolf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 17:11 ToT)KnowMe( wrote:
really nice writeup
in my opening that wallin has one serious flaw tho
theres a zerling rush which includes all drones -> slipping through your zealot and if your zealot is not in a small tunnel he will die very fast -> you lose Yeah, there's this, and the pylon is more exposed. There are weaknesses to both. Thanks for the writeup though!
To address both your concerns, this wall in creates a 1 space wide gap for your zealot between your cybernetics core and pylon. Drones cannot move through a zealot (at least in the direction of your main) that is on hold position. If you do scout a 6 pool/drone all in, wall off as I pointed out.
As I pointed out your pylon is actually less exposed from the real threat, roaches.
And your welcome =].
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On February 19 2011 17:21 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 17:00 Gooey wrote:I also use a different walloff, although not like this one. The way I wall off allows you to be protected from both cheese and standard ling pokes as usual. Ends up looking like this: + Show Spoiler +You will have the minerals to start your pylon before the zealot pops out to wall off for a standard 14 pool, and also have the 3x3 space to drop a forge to wall off any super early pool (or another gateway if you prefer). The great part is that you can wall off with high HP buildings that buy plenty of time for warpgate to finish. The cyber core is far enough back that it cannot be picked off by roaches, leaving only gateways (or if you need the panic forge) exposed. It can't be baneling busted easily either, even though the pylon seems like a weak point. You can prevent this by just building another one behind it and stuffing more zealots into the little hole (or just use sentries and laugh like I do? idk). I haven't had any problems ever with this wall, and can stop any and all cheese zerg can do. I have tried every combo, and this is absolutely the safest wall for a standard ramp. My worry with that wall-in would be that the Zealot can still be picked off by rushed Roaches.
I don't use a zealot to wall off if i scout the roach rush. I just use another gateway and fully wall my ramp off. You will be 100% fully be able to scout the 3 roach/ling all in, and the timing works out so that if I see it happening, it will be right before the first zealot pops out, and prompts me to either drop a pylon like in the example, or fully wall-off (safest response to this all-in, have tested it multiple times, and I come out fully ahead every time, even when killing my own gateway to move out). It 100% stops this rush every time and 100% of the time lets me stay ahead.
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On February 19 2011 17:26 AbeToss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 17:17 Wolf wrote:On February 19 2011 17:11 ToT)KnowMe( wrote:
really nice writeup
in my opening that wallin has one serious flaw tho
theres a zerling rush which includes all drones -> slipping through your zealot and if your zealot is not in a small tunnel he will die very fast -> you lose Yeah, there's this, and the pylon is more exposed. There are weaknesses to both. Thanks for the writeup though! To address both your concerns, this wall in creates a 1 space wide gap for your zealot between your cybernetics core and pylon. Drones cannot move through a zealot (at least in the direction of your main) that is on hold position. If you do scout a 6 pool/drone all in, wall off as I pointed out. As I pointed out your pylon is actually less exposed from the real threat, roaches. And your welcome =].
yes they can slip through (clicking on minerals) and thats deadly if you have no tunnel
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Another benefit of this wall-in is that if you need to rush back and forth between main and natural, you can kill off the pylon to make a bigger hole for your units to go through. Your stalkers will be able to move twice as quickly through the wall to kill off any muta harass or nydus shenanigans.
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Saw your redirect from the other thread, appreciated.
I agree this can help from Roaches sniping from the side, but it seems like the Zealot is a ton more exposed to lings this way, instead of 1 or 2 lings it looks like 3 or 4 may be able to hit the Zealot at one time.
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On February 19 2011 17:52 Supah wrote:
Saw your redirect from the other thread, appreciated.
I agree this can help from Roaches sniping from the side, but it seems like the Zealot is a ton more exposed to lings this way, instead of 1 or 2 lings it looks like 3 or 4 may be able to hit the Zealot at one time.
This got me worried for a second. Did bit of testing and only 1-2 zerglings can attack the zealot if he is tucked back between the cybernetics core and pylon.
As a side note, it was kinda interesting to see that either 1 or 2 zerglings would be able to hit a zealot in a number of wall-ins depending on how they approach the zealot and how they clump in front it, which seems somewhat random. It's especially difficult to get 2 attacking a zealot tucked down a corridor, but this isn't always possible to achieve depending on the map/spawning location.
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I just tried this wall in for the first time and the zerg went 3 roach/ling rush and its way easier to defend with this wall.
A significant % of my PvZ losses are to the 3 roach/ling all in, 6 pools, and random speedling all ins so I expect this wall will actually increase my win% by a non-trivial amount.
Great thread 
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On February 19 2011 16:50 andrewwiggin wrote:
Don't want to be losing my cybernetics core to 3 roaches =/
Stalkers out range roaches. Even if your opponent has high ground vision, you'll be able to get a stalker or two out before Zerg can snipe a cyber or gateway.
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Maybe you could pull probes to help against the drone abuse? I mean if Z pulled drones he is all-in anyways.
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If I don't see any really early zerg aggression I like using two gates in stead of the cyb core in my wall. Best to have your tech safe!
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I used to do this walloff, (see here)but I stopped doing it after the roach range upgrade, because it became impossible to shoot at the roaches attacking your building without coming down your ramp. Now I actually prefer the style where you leave a gap between the building and the ledge, since it means I can put more units on my ramp to attack anything below it.
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How are you going to have a finished Core out by the time a sixpool comes?
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You don't need to pylon to do it; it works between the corner of the core and the gateway, but you need to be completely sure your zealot is in the right spot. It's less susceptible to baneling busts, and you can complete the wall later with your second gate. Haven't tried it on all maps, since I usually just use the pylon.
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On February 20 2011 03:16 Kazzabiss wrote:
How are you going to have a finished Core out by the time a sixpool comes?
In the OP there are pictures of a full gateway wall off if you scout a 6pool. I don't see how you read the OP but still make such a comment.
I think the only issue is as stated before. The drone/ling all in but that's not really a common thing seen so I don't know if it is a real issue?
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commence bane busts of the protoss. =p
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On February 20 2011 03:13 GoldenH wrote:I used to do this walloff, (see here)but I stopped doing it after the roach range upgrade, because it became impossible to shoot at the roaches attacking your building without coming down your ramp. Now I actually prefer the style where you leave a gap between the building and the ledge, since it means I can put more units on my ramp to attack anything below it.
Nice! I was looking for other threads with this wall-in but didn't find yours because I didn't search for "sim city" =P.
I don't have any problem ranging roaches from behind my wall, but I haven't meticulously tested this with other maps. Could you provide some examples? Pictures are best =].
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On February 20 2011 03:32 uuurbAn wrote:
commence bane busts of the protoss. =p
yes please
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That's pretty smart.
Might need to practice the placement a bit so I can do it when facing whatever weird cheesy zerg play I can't figure out.
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On February 20 2011 03:50 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 03:32 uuurbAn wrote:
commence bane busts of the protoss. =p yes please
It's called force field. Think about it, if banelings can't hit your pylon they'll go for your zealot instead. Even so that's not the point, baneling busts really aren't an issue against Protoss in the first place. I'd rather my opponent go banelings than practically anything else in this match-up.
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On February 19 2011 17:00 Gooey wrote:I also use a different walloff, although not like this one. The way I wall off allows you to be protected from both cheese and standard ling pokes as usual. Ends up looking like this: + Show Spoiler +You will have the minerals to start your pylon before the zealot pops out to wall off for a standard 14 pool, and also have the 3x3 space to drop a forge to wall off any super early pool (or another gateway if you prefer). The great part is that you can wall off with high HP buildings that buy plenty of time for warpgate to finish. The cyber core is far enough back that it cannot be picked off by roaches, leaving only gateways (or if you need the panic forge) exposed. It can't be baneling busted easily either, even though the pylon seems like a weak point. You can prevent this by just building another one behind it and stuffing more zealots into the little hole (or just use sentries and laugh like I do? idk). I haven't had any problems ever with this wall, and can stop any and all cheese zerg can do. I have tried every combo, and this is absolutely the safest wall for a standard ramp.
This wall still lets your zealot get killed by roaches though, so it's different. The important thing about the wall OP is posting is that Zealots don't get hit by roaches
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Can the OP list which map/map positions this wall off doesn't work in? Bottom spawn DQ has some problems for example if I remember correctly.
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On February 20 2011 03:56 [NoiSe] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 17:00 Gooey wrote:I also use a different walloff, although not like this one. The way I wall off allows you to be protected from both cheese and standard ling pokes as usual. Ends up looking like this: + Show Spoiler +You will have the minerals to start your pylon before the zealot pops out to wall off for a standard 14 pool, and also have the 3x3 space to drop a forge to wall off any super early pool (or another gateway if you prefer). The great part is that you can wall off with high HP buildings that buy plenty of time for warpgate to finish. The cyber core is far enough back that it cannot be picked off by roaches, leaving only gateways (or if you need the panic forge) exposed. It can't be baneling busted easily either, even though the pylon seems like a weak point. You can prevent this by just building another one behind it and stuffing more zealots into the little hole (or just use sentries and laugh like I do? idk). I haven't had any problems ever with this wall, and can stop any and all cheese zerg can do. I have tried every combo, and this is absolutely the safest wall for a standard ramp. This wall still lets your zealot get killed by roaches though, so it's different. The important thing about the wall OP is posting is that Zealots don't get hit by roaches
Once again, I already said that if the 3 roach all-in thing comes that the OP is specifically designing his wall to prevent, I have tested multiple times that a 3 building complete walloff will stop it every single time and let you get ahead every single time, while still providing a normal (and safer) walloff. OP also puts his core in harms way, which is the most important structure to stop this all in. You have to chrono out units to stall for warpgate tech (chrono on tech will result in death). This is 100% scoutable and easily stopped if you practice what to do and know how to defend it.
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On February 20 2011 04:48 DeminRamst wrote:
Can the OP list which map/map positions this wall off doesn't work in? Bottom spawn DQ has some problems for example if I remember correctly.
Your right, you can't wall-in like this in the bottom right spawn of Delta Quadrant. You even have to adjust the standard wall-in in that spawn location, which is pretty easy to screw up . That ramp is a bit fucked up in my opinion since you have to expose the back side of one your buildings in order to wall in. Either way I'll add it to the OP. If anyone else finds any maps where this wall-in is not possible, just let me know.
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Great job OP! Thanks for contributing another tool to the community. I will test this out a bit tonight and let you know how it works for me.
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mmm that looks nice as you can kill the pylon afterwards to open up your ramp more. So you won*t have this mass ovi drop issue into the main base anymore. I still prefer my unit only ramp block though
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I, apparently opposed to all others, am rather full of doubts. My thoughts about that build are
1) rather exposed pylon, as you mentioned already
2) 6 pool / 7 pool is defended easily anyways, noneed to make it "easier", because you kinda cannot lose to it anyways
3) on almost no standard map you have such a ramp. Usually you have a normal edge and an edge in another angle, so you can always build your buildings avoiding the normal edge. Doing that mb only 1 Roach is attacking your zealot.
4) you don't really block the ramp, because hes able to let many roaches go up the ramp and only then getting blocked by your buildings. that means more roaches can attack your buildings / units, because they are not all clustered up on the ramp
5) besides all that negative aspects, if a zerg goes ling/roach allin on 1 base, you most likely have sentry and stalkers about to pop anyways, or even your warpgate upgrade, so noneed to risk all facts that I mentioned just to have a slight advantage for 1 scenario
but I still like it that people are trying to figure out detailed advantages, keep up the work!
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On February 20 2011 05:31 Farmerz wrote:I, apparently opposed to all others, am rather full of doubts. My thoughts about that build are 1) rather exposed pylon, as you mentioned already 2) 6 pool / 7 pool is defended easily anyways, noneed to make it "easier", because you kinda cannot lose to it anyways 3) on almost no standard map you have such a ramp. Usually you have a normal edge and an edge in another angle, so you can always build your buildings avoiding the normal edge. Doing that mb only 1 Roach is attacking your zealot. 4) you don't really block the ramp, because hes able to let many roaches go up the ramp and only then getting blocked by your buildings. that means more roaches can attack your buildings / units, because they are not all clustered up on the ramp 5) besides all that negative aspects, if a zerg goes ling/roach allin on 1 base, you most likely have sentry and stalkers about to pop anyways, or even your warpgate upgrade, so noneed to risk all facts that I mentioned just to have a slight advantage for 1 scenario but I still like it that people are trying to figure out detailed advantages, keep up the work!
1) forcefields
2) wait.. you want to be LESS safe?
3) 1 roach attacking my zealot will make me lose
4) forcefields
5) forcefields
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On February 20 2011 05:31 Farmerz wrote:I, apparently opposed to all others, am rather full of doubts. My thoughts about that build are 1) rather exposed pylon, as you mentioned already 2) 6 pool / 7 pool is defended easily anyways, noneed to make it "easier", because you kinda cannot lose to it anyways 3) on almost no standard map you have such a ramp. Usually you have a normal edge and an edge in another angle, so you can always build your buildings avoiding the normal edge. Doing that mb only 1 Roach is attacking your zealot. 4) you don't really block the ramp, because hes able to let many roaches go up the ramp and only then getting blocked by your buildings. that means more roaches can attack your buildings / units, because they are not all clustered up on the ramp 5) besides all that negative aspects, if a zerg goes ling/roach allin on 1 base, you most likely have sentry and stalkers about to pop anyways, or even your warpgate upgrade, so noneed to risk all facts that I mentioned just to have a slight advantage for 1 scenario but I still like it that people are trying to figure out detailed advantages, keep up the work!
I think I've addressed a lot of your points already so I won't restate them all but for the rest:
2) Sure 6 pool may be easy to defend (not on Steppes) but if this wall is the difference between holding it off say 9/10 times instead of 8/10 times, I'd say it is worth it. Same goes for the 3 roach speedling all in.
3) I have yet to find a ramp where if your zealot is at the edge of the wall, he can't be hit by at least 3 roaches. If you have an example of one, please post.
4) You technically can't block the ramp with any wall-in, ramps are unbuildable terrain. The point is that roaches don't need to be up a ramp to attack your wall since overlords can give them sight. Roaches up a ramp are actually more exposed to be force fielded, separated, and picked off so that's really not the issue here.
5) Having this type of wall-in helps tremendously with the all-in mentioned in the OP which blows away standard timings (go check it out) and has roaches at your ramp before warp gates are done and before you have many units out. Here's the thread that got all this discussion started in the first place.
OK fine I guess I ended up addressing all your points, oh well =P.
Edit: Thanks Pebbz, you beat me to it.
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This wallin allows you to deal with muta easier, and thats pretty much it. Since a 'standard' wall-in allows only 1 stalker in at a time this wallin [once you kill they pylon late game] will allow 2 stalkers to go through at a time and will allow your army to get from mineral patch to mineral patch a lot quicker.
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On February 20 2011 05:54 Pebbz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 05:31 Farmerz wrote:I, apparently opposed to all others, am rather full of doubts. My thoughts about that build are 1) rather exposed pylon, as you mentioned already 2) 6 pool / 7 pool is defended easily anyways, noneed to make it "easier", because you kinda cannot lose to it anyways 3) on almost no standard map you have such a ramp. Usually you have a normal edge and an edge in another angle, so you can always build your buildings avoiding the normal edge. Doing that mb only 1 Roach is attacking your zealot. 4) you don't really block the ramp, because hes able to let many roaches go up the ramp and only then getting blocked by your buildings. that means more roaches can attack your buildings / units, because they are not all clustered up on the ramp 5) besides all that negative aspects, if a zerg goes ling/roach allin on 1 base, you most likely have sentry and stalkers about to pop anyways, or even your warpgate upgrade, so noneed to risk all facts that I mentioned just to have a slight advantage for 1 scenario but I still like it that people are trying to figure out detailed advantages, keep up the work! 1) forcefields 2) wait.. you want to be LESS safe? 3) 1 roach attacking my zealot will make me lose 4) forcefields 5) forcefields
if your answer to everything is forcefields, why even bother to make a wall? you cannot block the ramp for ever and then you need a good position to defend. 1 roach attacking your zealot doesnt make you lose, because usually you have at least 1 stalker or a sentry to attack that one roach, so he will not sacrifice roaches early on to maybe pick off your zealot. and even if he would - you could place a pylon there.
and to 2) - its not needed to change anybuild and gain disadvantages if your advantage is fairly unneeded. why make yourself more vulnerable to baneling bust or smth like that, when 6 pool is no problem anyways?
and i just noticed another disadvantage. i personally encounter a lot of early 1 base speedling pushes. usually you have 1 zealot and 1 sentry almost up when his first wave arrives at your base. the only thinig i have to do is to hold those waves and im fine, but with that "new" build i have an exposed pylon, which will eventually die to those zerglings. i cant move my zealot away or they will rush in. all zerglings will attack my buildings and i need to buy time 'til my stalker and sentries pop up. and that "new" wall is more vulnerable to any attacks.
i will try to find a zerg for some games that proof my point ^^
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![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/T17jn.jpg)
What am i doing wrong in this wall? i've had lings just run by the hold pos zealot when its right in the middle of the 1u gap.
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I don't like this wall. It takes up a lot more space at the top of the ramp that my stalkers need to shoot down from if I'm going to kill off those roaches. I end up with 2-3 stalkers trying to kill off 7 roaches focusing down my cyber core from the bottom of the ramp, and the only way to get the rest of the stalkers closer is to bring them into roach range .
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Well didn't protosses use a wall-in similar to this one with just gate, core, and pylon behind them (i mean not part of the wall?)?
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On February 19 2011 15:57 AbeToss wrote:
The fact that roaches can target the weakest point of your wall even if you force field your ramp makes this rush a nightmare.
If you've got a force field anyway, just plant it and run your Zealot away from the ramp.
I could get behind this wall if it wasn't weaker to baneling busts or made it harder to shoot from the top of your ramp. Since I can just do the above, I see no reason to use this type of wall.
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On February 21 2011 09:48 snow2.0 wrote:What am i doing wrong in this wall? i've had lings just run by the hold pos zealot when its right in the middle of the 1u gap.
Either you accidentally made the gap too big or the zealot was just slightly off. I've had lings run by my seemingly tight zealot wall before, I believe it even has to do with which way the zealot is facing.
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You can't do this wall-off on all maps, as seen above. The gateway needs to be one pixel closer to the cyber core or vice versa for it to work.
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thats funny cause i would just run the zealot back and chrono stalks or a sentry..
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Calgary25977 Posts
Very very interesting. This is the kind of analysis and creative viewing we need in the TL SC2 Strategy forum.
Thank you very much OP.
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It's nice, but it is weaker vs super early speedling all-ins (off of like 12-13 pool but before 2nd sentry) because they can poke at your pylon out of range of your zealot and run in if you try and pull your zealot, etc etc. Whitera lost this way using this wall vs some zerg. Also, 6pool wall-in may take an extra probe but with this wall-in if you make stalkers then you can't fit them out if you did the shown 6pool wallin. Considering the 2nd pylon can be used for supply until you break out, I wouldn't consider it a waste of money.
3roach all-in doesn't scare me, I build 2 cannons vs it anyway. I'll be sticking with my old walls.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4926/tosswallin.png)
