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On February 10 2011 07:19 Arisen wrote:
While all this information is accurate, and useful in the application of the purpose of this thread, it does little for the thread itself. The power in this exercise is seeing the power of its application. Doing the exact same thing as me he has 3x as many units at the same time is much more powerful in showing the efficacy of a macro oriented approach toward the game than a method of doing it and saying you'll have more units.
I encourage everyone to participate, with either a question or an example. I refuse to believe that the Team Liquid Community doesn't care enough to give back to it's newer members. Cheers everyone.
I don't mind being a Bronze Guinea Pig. Here's a replay where at 7:00, I have:
50/59 food
25 SCVs (1 more on the way)
5 Marauders (2 more on the way)
9 Marines (2 more on the way)
Concussive Completed
Stim to complete at 8:24
EBay completed
Orbital completed
My opponent was at 40/43 at this point.
Watching just this part of the replay, I see things that obviously can be improved. I supply blocked myself. I had a bit of a hiccup on creating the orbital, making and canceling SCVs a couple of times. I was basically executing a 3 Rax, 2 Techs, 1 Reactor, which would turn into an attack and expansion. I've only been playing Terran for a couple of days, so I was pretty much winging the build order after about when I make the Orbital. I also didn't scout.
As for the results of this game, I lost mainly for 2 reasons. I was an idiot and suicided too many troops and 2, just lack of familiarity playing Terran. I've been playing Protoss until a few days ago. If you want to offer suggestions on other things I did wrong, I'll take them in, but I'm not asking for help, just contributing some input to the thread from a Bronze perspective.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137235-1v1-terran-lost-temple
I'm the Red Terran named 'Random'.
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On February 10 2011 08:08 `chain wrote:
@Sonic - Even thought you probably won't run into this, a 4gate 1gas is going to kill you @6:00. I'll try this out later, but I'd get gateway units to tank/kill scvs, and ~2 imms to take care of your thor. Perhaps a sentry to hold off the marines?
Cheers for the advise, though if you poke the front with your Helion you should be able to get a clear tell if it is a fourgate, and then you can cut gas and get a bunker. There are countless threads on shutting down 4gates tho so lets not clog up this thread anymore 
E: 250mm Strike cannons will deal with the immortals, assuming you bring SCVs the Thors will be really hard to kill, even with SCVs taking the same threat as the thors. The marines will chew the gateway units real fast as well. Also with some control FF's will be garbage.
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I plan on practicing my macro a lot this weekend. I know I won't get CLOSE to oGsMC, but maybe I can try to get half? lol
MC is a freakin' beast...
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I thought about making a thread sort of like this, but much more streamlined. But I've never created a thread here and wasn't sure it would appropriate.
My thought was similar to the original macroing to diamond idea. Instead of your OP which is more open-ended, by thought would be this:
- set up a game Xel'Naga Caverns against Very Easy AI.
- your goal is to make as many stalkers as you can
- you must make at least 1 stalker before your first expansion (just to make it sort of realistic)
- post with a replay, note how many stalkers you had at 7 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes (if necessary), and how long until you reached 200/200 supply. Note how many stalkers you have at that point (you will have probes too).
- post with your which league you are in
and then the post would keep track of who had the best times in each league. I hadn't ironed out all the details yet (mostly dealing with you can sort of cheat to get to 200/200 by mass making probes), or whether there could be sometime substituted for stalkers for other races.
Does that sound like an interesting exercise?
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Just thought I'd add that good mechanics are essential for good macro, so watch day9 #252 + 257:
Day9 Daily #252
Day9 Daily #257
Especially focus on the 'tap' (he will drill this into your brain). Just do it. All the time.
The way I understand it is mechanics is a means to macro is a means to an optimized build is a means to a strategy. If you are weak on any of the foundation your strategy will never play properly.
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Basically same thread was made a little while ago:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=178627
With some effort all players can understand their efficiency for a particular build. Besides the issue of initial effort the issue is with getting them to understand the optimal or how "squeeze every ounce of efficiency out of their builds". I don't think there is any real shortcut here besides a ton of solid knowledge about how your race works, their economy, unit timings, building timings, ability to execute and think fast enough, and so on.
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I know people sayin putting units in the queue is bad, but it allows you to train units continuously. If you are late in warp gate warp ins, those seconds compound throughout the game, which can cause problems like in the OP.
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On February 10 2011 08:53 sambour wrote:Just thought I'd add that good mechanics are essential for good macro, so watch day9 #252 + 257: Day9 Daily #252Day9 Daily #257Especially focus on the 'tap' (he will drill this into your brain). Just do it. All the time. The way I understand it is mechanics is a means to macro is a means to an optimized build is a means to a strategy. If you are weak on any of the foundation your strategy will never play properly.
I've wondered about the tap. I always have trouble withstanding new units just as the last ones finish, I always end up with idle time or things queued up. Problem is, as soon as I start exploiting MBS and put more then one rax in a ctrl group the tap does not work. Being a player who likes bio and gets a second barracks quite fast the tap seems nearly useless for unit production.
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Mid diamond protoss
gateway gateway robo gateway style build
7:00 minutes.
I had 57 supply
1 immortal, 1 zealot, 5 sentry, 4 stalkers, rest in probes.
I was mostly chrono-boosting probes.
120 minerals / 12 vespene gas left over.
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1-7th ranked silver league terran, depending if i'm laddering alot in the week, foods usually 45 - 50when my first Medivac pops for a drop with 8-10 marines and two siege tanks, with seige mode, at about 7:30 or so, on a good day atleast, I should go check though lol
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On February 10 2011 09:11 Trion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 08:53 sambour wrote:Just thought I'd add that good mechanics are essential for good macro, so watch day9 #252 + 257: Day9 Daily #252Day9 Daily #257Especially focus on the 'tap' (he will drill this into your brain). Just do it. All the time. The way I understand it is mechanics is a means to macro is a means to an optimized build is a means to a strategy. If you are weak on any of the foundation your strategy will never play properly. I've wondered about the tap. I always have trouble withstanding new units just as the last ones finish, I always end up with idle time or things queued up. Problem is, as soon as I start exploiting MBS and put more then one rax in a ctrl group the tap does not work. Being a player who likes bio and gets a second barracks quite fast the tap seems nearly useless for unit production.
Could you maybe spread your hotkeys something like 4 for marine production, 5 for maurader, 6 for tank/thor/whatever? This way each control group has a uniform training time. I haven't studied how terrans set up their hotkeys so I'm no expert there. Maybe check some pro replays and see how they do it?
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Im confused by your numbers. How does the stim push come earlier than the concussive shell push when concussive shells are researched faster?
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On February 10 2011 08:19 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 07:19 Arisen wrote:
While all this information is accurate, and useful in the application of the purpose of this thread, it does little for the thread itself. The power in this exercise is seeing the power of its application. Doing the exact same thing as me he has 3x as many units at the same time is much more powerful in showing the efficacy of a macro oriented approach toward the game than a method of doing it and saying you'll have more units.
I encourage everyone to participate, with either a question or an example. I refuse to believe that the Team Liquid Community doesn't care enough to give back to it's newer members. Cheers everyone. I don't mind being a Bronze Guinea Pig. Here's a replay where at 7:00, I have: 50/59 food 25 SCVs (1 more on the way) 5 Marauders (2 more on the way) 9 Marines (2 more on the way) Concussive Completed Stim to complete at 8:24 EBay completed Orbital completed My opponent was at 40/43 at this point. Watching just this part of the replay, I see things that obviously can be improved. I supply blocked myself. I had a bit of a hiccup on creating the orbital, making and canceling SCVs a couple of times. I was basically executing a 3 Rax, 2 Techs, 1 Reactor, which would turn into an attack and expansion. I've only been playing Terran for a couple of days, so I was pretty much winging the build order after about when I make the Orbital. I also didn't scout. As for the results of this game, I lost mainly for 2 reasons. I was an idiot and suicided too many troops and 2, just lack of familiarity playing Terran. I've been playing Protoss until a few days ago. If you want to offer suggestions on other things I did wrong, I'll take them in, but I'm not asking for help, just contributing some input to the thread from a Bronze perspective. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137235-1v1-terran-lost-templeI'm the Red Terran named 'Random'.
2 Thoughts. There are 2 ways you can go with the 3 rax. Cut SCV all in, or extra SCV attack/expansion. You threw down an engie bay for no reason. IF you plan on getting ups, don't get the ebay until you're ready to upgrade.
I focused on the expansion version, as you said you wanted to have that. At 7 minutes
Food
You50 Me 49
Rauders
You5 Me 5
Rines
You9 me 5
Stim
You 50% Me 100%
Concussive
You 100% Me 25%
Upgrades
You 0/0 Me 1/0 or 0/1
SCV's
You 25 Me 28
At the same stage in the game, we were basically even, BUT I already had my 1 attack upgrade done. My version focused more on constant SCV's rather than a slightly earlier rax, and thus more rines. After the current round finished, I threw down my expo, around 7:25. My concussive shell/stim was about a minute ahead as well (concussive is much shorter an upgrade than stim,). IMO, your error was throwing down that ebay. If you don't need turrets early, or ups early, you could skip it in favor of faster rax or expo.
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On February 10 2011 09:11 Trion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 08:53 sambour wrote:Just thought I'd add that good mechanics are essential for good macro, so watch day9 #252 + 257: Day9 Daily #252Day9 Daily #257Especially focus on the 'tap' (he will drill this into your brain). Just do it. All the time. The way I understand it is mechanics is a means to macro is a means to an optimized build is a means to a strategy. If you are weak on any of the foundation your strategy will never play properly. I've wondered about the tap. I always have trouble withstanding new units just as the last ones finish, I always end up with idle time or things queued up. Problem is, as soon as I start exploiting MBS and put more then one rax in a ctrl group the tap does not work. Being a player who likes bio and gets a second barracks quite fast the tap seems nearly useless for unit production.
The tap is a very good idea if u are having trouble with building units right when then next one finnishes. Even if u only have barrackses u need to switch from command center to barrackses to see how the production is going. I do it subconsiously now whenever i find time to check ill do a quick check to see if i need to build more units.
When u have more than 1 barracks u can see which ones are producing. U should be able to estimate how long the units are from being done because u have to build them so frequently.
Also if ur about to go into a battle u might as well cue up all the production u can since u likely wont be building buildings intill after the battle.
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On February 10 2011 10:01 FuzzyLord wrote:
Im confused by your numbers. How does the stim push come earlier than the concussive shell push when concussive shells are researched faster?
Concussive shell 3 rax is stim and conc shell
Stim is just straight stim.
Stim is researched first.
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On February 10 2011 09:17 shimpoe wrote:
Mid diamond protoss
gateway gateway robo gateway style build
7:00 minutes.
I had 57 supply
1 immortal, 1 zealot, 5 sentry, 4 stalkers, rest in probes.
I was mostly chrono-boosting probes.
120 minerals / 12 vespene gas left over.
That's the same 3 gate robo I described in the OP. My own decently executed
@ 7:00
-33 probes
-Immortal due to pop out any second
-2 sentries
-2 zealots
-3 additional gateway units
-3 gateway units set to arrive in about 8 seconds.
Your build is a few seconds ahead of mine. Good Work. I don't play toss (I roll zerg), this was just something I did on the fly. Never settle though, always be looking to get that extra few minerals/seconds out of your build
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On February 10 2011 10:07 Arisen wrote:
2 Thoughts. There are 2 ways you can go with the 3 rax. Cut SCV all in, or extra SCV attack/expansion. You threw down an engie bay for no reason. IF you plan on getting ups, don't get the ebay until you're ready to upgrade.
...
At the same stage in the game, we were basically even, BUT I already had my 1 attack upgrade done. My version focused more on constant SCV's rather than a slightly earlier rax, and thus more rines. After the current round finished, I threw down my expo, around 7:25. My concussive shell/stim was about a minute ahead as well (concussive is much shorter an upgrade than stim,). IMO, your error was throwing down that ebay. If you don't need turrets early, or ups early, you could skip it in favor of faster rax or expo.
Honestly I'm not sure what my thoughts were about throwing down the Ebay. Probably because I'm used to making a forge about that time and actually getting an upgrade. I probably just forgot to get the upgrade or couldn't afford it, what with my suicide mission going on lol. This bit about doing Stim before Conc shell is good info. I don't have a lot of this Terran knowledge yet. I definitely would like to expo earlier, so the Ebay will probably end up being delayed for it. I'm certainly not looking for an all-in build, so I won't be cutting workers probably until Platinum lol.
I'm pretty sure if I had played that opponent with a few more games of Terran experience under my belt, I would have won. I was pretty well ahead and even still close after a few suicide attacks. /smackhand and I'm pretty sure just expanding and defending, basically as he was doing would have tilted the game in my favor. Anyways, I wasn't worried about that one game, but learning along the way.
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Hi guys, I thought I'd approach this from the protoss side and see how well I'm doing at the prescribed times versus some very hard AI. Both games I try to go gate-cyber-gate-gate-robo.
I'm a gold leaguer, these are my results:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187910.jpg)
6:20:
26 probes
Robo 50% complete
Warped in one round of units, gates on roughly 50% cooldown.
3 stalkers
2 sentries
1 zealot
At this point T had 1 marauder and 7 rines and was gearing up to do a thor push.
At 7:00:
28 probes
4 stalkers
3 sentries
2 zealots
took about another 15s to start an immortal, and I probably could have had the chance to squeeze out an extra round of warpgate units.
When the Thor push hits around 8:45 I have:
31 probes
3 zealots
1 immortal
8 stalkers
3 sentries
3 warpgates off cooldown
Despite not microing my immortal at all, I manage to hold off.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187911.jpg)
At 6:20:
23 probes
2 stalkers (+2)
1 zealot
1 sentry (+1)
Robo ~33% done
3 Warpgates just finished morphing and I add on 2 more stalkers and 1 sentry which all finish by 6:30.
At 7:00:
The terran attacks and I still have the same mix (+2 probes), but I FF the ramp and warp in another 2 stalkers and 1 sentry.
The terran hit with about the same amount of stuff that the OP predicted, but minus stim and concussive shells at 7:00, which makes me think that this would have been way harder to hold if properly executed, but then again I could also have had the 3 extra units earlier.
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On February 10 2011 10:56 Vod.kaholic wrote:Hi guys, I thought I'd approach this from the protoss side and see how well I'm doing at the prescribed times versus some very hard AI. Both games I try to go gate-cyber-gate-gate-robo. I'm a gold leaguer, these are my results: 6:20: 26 probes Robo 50% complete Warped in one round of units, gates on roughly 50% cooldown. 3 stalkers 2 sentries 1 zealot At this point T had 1 marauder and 7 rines and was gearing up to do a thor push. At 7:00: 28 probes 4 stalkers 3 sentries 2 zealots took about another 15s to start an immortal, and I probably could have had the chance to squeeze out an extra round of warpgate units. When the Thor push hits around 8:45 I have: 31 probes 3 zealots 1 immortal 8 stalkers 3 sentries 3 warpgates off cooldown Despite not microing my immortal at all, I manage to hold off. At 6:20: 23 probes 2 stalkers (+2) 1 zealot 1 sentry (+1) Robo ~33% done 3 Warpgates just finished morphing and I add on 2 more stalkers and 1 sentry which all finish by 6:30. At 7:00: The terran attacks and I still have the same mix (+2 probes), but I FF the ramp and warp in another 2 stalkers and 1 sentry. The terran hit with about the same amount of stuff that the OP predicted, but minus stim and concussive shells at 7:00, which makes me think that this would have been way harder to hold if properly executed, but then again I could also have had the 3 extra units earlier.
I'd reccomend against playing an actual opponent (except something like very easy AI that never attacks) The goal isn't to play vs an opponent. Rather, it's to focus on your own play to acknowledge and gap any holes in your macro. It's useless to pay attention to your opponents timings if our own aren't consistant right? Say I have a PvT build I'm working on. It's suboptimal to design a way to deal with a 4 gate when half the time I end up with 4 less units. Once our own play is refined we can deal with very specific timings and mold and shape our style until we have a reliable, tested build we can bust out at a moments notice that covers all facets of our opponents play. That is where true strategy is born.
That's why I'm encouraging everyone to spend some time refining their builds and find out if they can improve and start running like a well oiled machine.
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On February 10 2011 09:52 sambour wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 09:11 Trion wrote:On February 10 2011 08:53 sambour wrote:Just thought I'd add that good mechanics are essential for good macro, so watch day9 #252 + 257: Day9 Daily #252Day9 Daily #257Especially focus on the 'tap' (he will drill this into your brain). Just do it. All the time. The way I understand it is mechanics is a means to macro is a means to an optimized build is a means to a strategy. If you are weak on any of the foundation your strategy will never play properly. I've wondered about the tap. I always have trouble withstanding new units just as the last ones finish, I always end up with idle time or things queued up. Problem is, as soon as I start exploiting MBS and put more then one rax in a ctrl group the tap does not work. Being a player who likes bio and gets a second barracks quite fast the tap seems nearly useless for unit production. Could you maybe spread your hotkeys something like 4 for marine production, 5 for maurader, 6 for tank/thor/whatever? This way each control group has a uniform training time. I haven't studied how terrans set up their hotkeys so I'm no expert there. Maybe check some pro replays and see how they do it?
Yes. What you'd do is select a reactor barracks, and press control 4. Select every reactor rax and press shift 4, and then every reactor rax is 4. Do the simmilar thing with Tech lab rax for rauders, tech lab facts for tanks, reactor fact for hellions. Just arrange all tech labs on one hotkey, all reactors on the other for each structure type.
As to the guy asking about quing, it's considered bad because it's "hiding money" if you have 3 marines qued, you could unque all three and build a rax. This way your production capacity goes up. This way, if your money is low, it means you're actually spending it all.
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EPT
