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[D] So You Think You Can Macro? - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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sick_transit
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States195 Posts
February 10 2011 03:52 GMT
#41
Just watched replays of my last two losses.

zvt: 14H, 14P, 14G: 37 food @ 7 minutes (26 drones)
zvp: 14P, 14G, 20H: 35 food @ 7 minutes (+/- 26 drones)

I'm highly-ranked gold.

My macro obviously has a lot of room for improvement. Now I have some benchmarks to shoot for. Thanks alot for starting this thread. It helped me learn something about my play. (For instance, I started tech structures before I needed them, slowing drone production; missed larva vomits of course; too much gas too soon.)
War is a drug.
Arisen
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2382 Posts
February 10 2011 04:09 GMT
#42
Remember, what are your goals? All I've seen for 7 minutes in lings/drones/spines. What are your goals in each matchup? The food will go VERY diffent betwixt muta/ling and ling infestor, which are both really different from roach/hydra. Few more pieces of information please.
"If you're not angry, you're not paying attention"
-reveNge-
Profile Joined August 2010
77 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-10 04:26:35
February 10 2011 04:21 GMT
#43
ZvZ with a 15 hatch 15 pool opening.

@7 minutes 57/60 (32 drones)
@10minutes 108/108(51 drones)
@ 12:35 186/190 (59 drones)

Followed by engagement and the win.
Edit; 2-2 was finishing at time of engagement and this is off pure roach.
Vod.kaholic
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1052 Posts
February 10 2011 04:28 GMT
#44
On February 10 2011 12:05 Arisen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2011 10:56 Vod.kaholic wrote:
Hi guys, I thought I'd approach this from the protoss side and see how well I'm doing at the prescribed times versus some very hard AI. Both games I try to go gate-cyber-gate-gate-robo.

I'm a gold leaguer, these are my results:

[image loading]
6:20:
26 probes
Robo 50% complete
Warped in one round of units, gates on roughly 50% cooldown.
3 stalkers
2 sentries
1 zealot

At this point T had 1 marauder and 7 rines and was gearing up to do a thor push.

At 7:00:
28 probes
4 stalkers
3 sentries
2 zealots
took about another 15s to start an immortal, and I probably could have had the chance to squeeze out an extra round of warpgate units.

When the Thor push hits around 8:45 I have:
31 probes
3 zealots
1 immortal
8 stalkers
3 sentries
3 warpgates off cooldown

Despite not microing my immortal at all, I manage to hold off.

[image loading]

At 6:20:
23 probes
2 stalkers (+2)
1 zealot
1 sentry (+1)
Robo ~33% done
3 Warpgates just finished morphing and I add on 2 more stalkers and 1 sentry which all finish by 6:30.

At 7:00:
The terran attacks and I still have the same mix (+2 probes), but I FF the ramp and warp in another 2 stalkers and 1 sentry.

The terran hit with about the same amount of stuff that the OP predicted, but minus stim and concussive shells at 7:00, which makes me think that this would have been way harder to hold if properly executed, but then again I could also have had the 3 extra units earlier.


I'd reccomend against playing an actual opponent (except something like very easy AI that never attacks) The goal isn't to play vs an opponent. Rather, it's to focus on your own play to acknowledge and gap any holes in your macro. It's useless to pay attention to your opponents timings if our own aren't consistant right? Say I have a PvT build I'm working on. It's suboptimal to design a way to deal with a 4 gate when half the time I end up with 4 less units. Once our own play is refined we can deal with very specific timings and mold and shape our style until we have a reliable, tested build we can bust out at a moments notice that covers all facets of our opponents play. That is where true strategy is born.

That's why I'm encouraging everyone to spend some time refining their builds and find out if they can improve and start running like a well oiled machine.


I see what you mean, but I was not worried at all about what the computer was doing, I just wanted it there as a sort of test to see if my gate-cyber-gate-gate-robo thing could get out a decent amount of units in time to stop early pressure. In any case, I know now from watching those replays that I need to maintain constant probe production. There are times where I exclusively wait for chronoboost energy to make probes, and times where I needlessly cut probe production to get out some units.
._. \: |: /: .-. :\ :| :/ ._. They see me rolling...
shimpoe
Profile Joined May 2010
88 Posts
February 10 2011 04:58 GMT
#45
@7:00 gate gate robo gate (chrono probes)
57 supply
1 immortal
5 sentry
2 zealot
3 stalker
rest as probes

@7:00 gate gate robo gate (chrono probes)
57 supply
1 immortal
5 sentry
1 zealot
4 stalker

I seem to always be around this supply with each attempt. However I don't actually use this build in games. Not to make this about my PvT strategy, but I like 2 gate+robo and a quicker expansion, with an observer out.

----

So this is what I more generally use in PvT,

@7:00 gate gate robo (chrono probes)(fairly quick expansion)
55 supply
1 immortal
5 sentry
2 stalker
1 zealot
1 observer
rest as probes
natural expansion around 80%-85% complete

What is interesting to me is how little the nexus actually slows things down; considering it isn't complete yet, I haven't inflated my supply with probes or income. I suppose the extra production of the third gateway doesn't have as large as an influence at this point as I would have assumed because it's fairly delayed and hasn't gotten a lot of use yet.

I hope more people catch on and participate in this thread. It's pretty interesting comparing to yourself, but I'd love to see what some other (better) players come up with as benchmarks.

Evantas
Profile Joined December 2010
Singapore61 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-10 05:08:19
February 10 2011 05:07 GMT
#46
I think you need to get some numbers for FE at 10 min mark. FE imo is good macro practice for gold/plat players like me who are fine off 1-base, but start having macro problems off 2 bases when income essentially increases by ard 50-100% by 10 min.
Naohia
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6259 Posts
February 10 2011 05:07 GMT
#47
This is a pretty interesting post. And it's true that a lot of lower level players don't realise what a big difference good macro execution makes. Once, I was helping a friend with terran and I said, "supply 10 rax 12 gas 13 OC 15". His response was, "yes, I do it that way". When I watched the replay, I saw that he pulled his SCV to build the rax at the choke so late, it was more like rax 13. Then there was things like supply-capped, etc.

If a high level player has the time to execute the same build order but just do it better, it would certainly open the eyes of a lot of players.
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
February 10 2011 05:40 GMT
#48
On February 10 2011 14:07 Azzur wrote:
This is a pretty interesting post. And it's true that a lot of lower level players don't realise what a big difference good macro execution makes. Once, I was helping a friend with terran and I said, "supply 10 rax 12 gas 13 OC 15". His response was, "yes, I do it that way". When I watched the replay, I saw that he pulled his SCV to build the rax at the choke so late, it was more like rax 13. Then there was things like supply-capped, etc.

If a high level player has the time to execute the same build order but just do it better, it would certainly open the eyes of a lot of players.


It's pretty neat how when you build the structures exactly when you have the minerals at the proper time, and constantly make workers, things sync up very well. As soon as the barracks is finished, the Command Center is completing a worker and ready for OC. It's almost like Blizzard meant it to be that way lol. If I recall correctly, there are a couple timings for Protoss that fit like that as well.
sick_transit
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States195 Posts
February 10 2011 16:26 GMT
#49
@Arisen-

In the zvp I was going for Siege's sling opening into roach/hydra. In addition to the workers I had 2 queens and the balance slings.

In the zvt I was going slings into blings. I had 2 queens, bnest, lair making, balance slings.
War is a drug.
OnlineHero
Profile Joined February 2011
Denmark647 Posts
February 10 2011 18:47 GMT
#50
3 gate expand

57/58
32 probes
7 zealots
4 stalkers
1 sentry

I had about 300 minerals saved up here for the nexus. I was really suprised how much difference perfect timing makes. I started out reaching 40-45 supply and after 45 min of practice I reached 57 supply. Huge difference. I didn't really pay attention to which units I produced though. The number might be a bit lower with a faster second gas and more sentries in there.
<3
Enyce
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Germany43 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-10 22:49:11
February 10 2011 19:09 GMT
#51
I tried this too and here are my build and my units:

Build:
I did a 3 Gate into Expand adding a Robotics Facility asap after throwing down the Nexus.

So in detail:
9 Pylo
13 Gateway
14 Gas
17 Cybernetics Core (when Gateway finished)
*starting warp-tech instantly
when warp-tech about 50% done adding 2 further Gateways
when Gateways about 50% done adding second Gas
when warp-tech done adding my second Nexus (around 6:10)
adding Robotics facility asap after Nexus to get detection up

Which works out pretty stable for me although it's not as fast with units as the OP did. (e.g. Immortal)
(This is the build I choose to train my basics and get stable macro and learn upgrade timings etc.)

Units:
32 Probes
2 Zealot
5 Sentries
2 Warpgates ready (65 98 Minerals or one sentry left)
Robotics about 25-30% done

47/58 supply
+ Show Spoiler +
before:

30 Probes
1 Zealot
2 Stalker
3 Sentries
3 Warpgates ready (should have build a pylon around 6:20 - 6:30)
Robotics about 25-30% done

42/42 supply


I spend my CB on Probes and warp-tech research and kept all my gates on cooldown.

Hope this may help you, although (or even because) I made mistakes, to see what you may improve.

Edit:
- unit count after some tries (old version in spoiler)
"There is nothing cooler than being passionate about the things you love." - Sean Plott
Arisen
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2382 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-10 21:20:31
February 10 2011 21:17 GMT
#52
On February 11 2011 01:26 sick_transit wrote:
@Arisen-

In the zvp I was going for Siege's sling opening into roach/hydra. In addition to the workers I had 2 queens and the balance slings.

In the zvt I was going slings into blings. I had 2 queens, bnest, lair making, balance slings.


ZvP Roach Hydra:
@7:00
50 supply
3 Hatches (2 completed and staurated, 3rd started @7:00
2 Queens
Lair & Roach warren slated to finish @ same time (7/8th's complete)
Metabolic Boost Complete
1 spine crawler
2 Gysers Coplete and harvesting
2 zerglings
45 Drones
5 Creep tumors

ZvT Sling/Bling (w/ muta's)
@7:00
50 Supply
3 2 Hatches
Lair Complete
2 Queens
4 Extractors
2 Zerglings
Metabolic Boost Complete
Baneling Nest Completed
1/8 on Centrifugal Hooks (bling speed)
45 Drones
4 Creep Tumors
"If you're not angry, you're not paying attention"
skipdog172
Profile Joined June 2010
United States331 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-10 21:49:00
February 10 2011 21:46 GMT
#53
While I kind of understand the point of this post... I don't think you chose a good example at all. Clearly the "friend" is blatantly screwing up things VERY BADLY to have so few units at the 7 minute mark. How can he possibly think he is macroing good? Wouldn't him watching one replay of himself allow him to see how bad he is? To me, this just seems like a problem of the "friend" not knowing how to watch replays and judge his own play.

This thread has really turned into a discussion about how many units you can get on different early timings and that is all fine and dandy. I just think the emphasis should be on watching your own replays. Trying to judge your macro skill by looking at army numbers and game timings seems much less useful compared to simply knowing how to watch your own replay and see where you screwed up your macro.
Arisen
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2382 Posts
February 10 2011 21:53 GMT
#54
On February 11 2011 03:47 OnlineHero wrote:
3 gate expand

57/58
32 probes
7 zealots
4 stalkers
1 sentry

I had about 300 minerals saved up here for the nexus. I was really suprised how much difference perfect timing makes. I started out reaching 40-45 supply and after 45 min of practice I reached 57 supply. Huge difference. I didn't really pay attention to which units I produced though. The number might be a bit lower with a faster second gas and more sentries in there.


@7:00
58 Supply
6 Sentries
2 Stalkers
3 Zealots
36 Probes
2 Assimilators
Expo @ 29/100
3 Gates
1 Core

This can be smoother, I was sloppy w/ chronoboosts

If you want to expand behind 3 gates (usually v Z), you want to be really sentry heavy to save minerals, and early sentries bank energy for more FF's/GS's. To compensate, you need fast 2 Assimilators, I grabbed mine right after core. I ended @ 10 Minerals/ 94 Gas

Glad the post prompted you to get some more efficiency out of your build
"If you're not angry, you're not paying attention"
Arisen
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2382 Posts
February 10 2011 22:04 GMT
#55
On February 11 2011 06:46 skipdog172 wrote:
While I kind of understand the point of this post... I don't think you chose a good example at all. Clearly the "friend" is blatantly screwing up things VERY BADLY to have so few units at the 7 minute mark. How can he possibly think he is macroing good? Wouldn't him watching one replay of himself allow him to see how bad he is? To me, this just seems like a problem of the "friend" not knowing how to watch replays and judge his own play.

This thread has really turned into a discussion about how many units you can get on different early timings and that is all fine and dandy. I just think the emphasis should be on watching your own replays. Trying to judge your macro skill by looking at army numbers and game timings seems much less useful compared to simply knowing how to watch your own replay and see where you screwed up your macro.


The point is that lower level players think they're macroing well so put most of their practice time into other things. The point is to point out what a bit of practice in your macro and timings can do for your game. There are so many people who think at lower levels especially that when they lose to a lot of stuff early, it's because of "balance" when in reality, they could have had plenty of of units to deal with something, then they come on TL and make posts that claim imbalance, then more people start thinking that, and it becomes a big spiraling shitstorm. By posting some good examples of what you COULD have at a certain point in time, people will have a bench mark of looking at their replays.

If I poorly time some buildings, I could end up with fewer probes/units/structures/upgrades, etc, and never know without the context to put into it. My last post was a great example. A guy was trying to expand early, had allot of zealots, and was on track to put down his expo a bit after 7 minutes, but by grabbing a double gas early you pour more into sentries and as a result have free minerals to start your expo early. You might not think of that without some context of WHAT is possible, he's just seeing "I was constantly producing units and probes, so I can't refine any more. There's always something to learn from other players, which is why this post exists.
"If you're not angry, you're not paying attention"
Arisen
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2382 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-10 23:37:23
February 10 2011 23:36 GMT
#56
On February 10 2011 13:21 VTreveNge wrote:
ZvZ with a 15 hatch 15 pool opening.

@7 minutes 57/60 (32 drones)
@10minutes 108/108(51 drones)
@ 12:35 186/190 (59 drones)

Followed by engagement and the win.
Edit; 2-2 was finishing at time of engagement and this is off pure roach.


@7 Minutes
52 Supply
5 Roaches
4 extractors (2 just started)
2 Evo Chambers (@75%, enough gas to start 1/1 as they complete)
Metabolic Boost Complete (zergling speed)
2 Zerglings
37 Drones
4 Creep Tumors
"If you're not angry, you're not paying attention"
AKomrade
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States582 Posts
February 11 2011 00:19 GMT
#57
Platinum -

Three Rax Stim:
@7:00
50 supply
8 Marauders
9 Marines
25 SCVs

Thats including the ones in production. Stim and CS have finished. Also got supply blocked twice T.T
ALL HAIL THE KING IN THE NORTH! HAIL! HAIL!
Sejanus
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Lithuania550 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-11 00:47:07
February 11 2011 00:34 GMT
#58
This is a wonderful thread, I was looking precisely for something like this. It's always easier to improve when you have concrete short term goals, like "have that many units at that minute".

Here's my nubish contribution. No league, single player only so far.

Protoss vs Random VH AI, Lost Temple, accidently chronoboosted at supply cap once (tired atm) and ordered a zealot first because it seemed like it's gonna do zerglings. Shortly after I realized it's gonna be roaches after all, so I went double gas, 3 gateways, expand after - build, I found it works good against that kind of AI opening.

7:00 I had:
45/50 food, 50 minerals, 118 gas
3 Gateways
26 probes, 1 zealot, 2 stalkers, 3 sentries.
already dead: a scouting probe; a stalker due to bad micro (tired, again) defending from roaches rush. Zealot is about to die too
On the way: Stalker in a few seconds, 2 more stalkers just started and immediately to be canceled due to warpgates research just finished.

A lot to improve to...

@7:00
58 Supply
6 Sentries
2 Stalkers
3 Zealots
36 Probes
2 Assimilators

Friends don't let friends massacre civilians
Arisen
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2382 Posts
February 11 2011 00:41 GMT
#59
On February 11 2011 09:34 Sejanus wrote:
This is a wonderful thread, I was looking precisely for something like this. It's always easier to improve when you have concrete short term goals, like "have that many units at that minute".

Here's my nubish contribution. No league, single player only so far.

Protoss vs Random VH AI, Lost Temple, accidently chronoboosted at supply cap once (tired atm) and ordered a zealot first because it seemed like it's gonna do zerglings. Shortly after I realized it's gonna be roaches after all, so I went double gas, 3 gateways, expand after - build, I found it works good against that kind of AI opening.

7:00 I had:
45/50 food, 50 minerals, 118 gas
3 Gateways
26 probes, 1 zealot, 2 stalkers, 3 sentries.
already dead: a scouting probe; a zealot due to bad micro (tired, again) defending from roaches rush.
On the way: Stalker in a few seconds, 2 more stalkers just started and immediately to be canceled due to warpgates research just finished.


Cool, glad you like it. I already have 3 gate expand up, so you have a benchmark. Cheers
"If you're not angry, you're not paying attention"
Ebos
Profile Joined November 2010
United States44 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-11 01:01:00
February 11 2011 00:57 GMT
#60
On February 10 2011 07:48 `chain wrote:
Very true. However, I do believe that there is one problem with the TL community - the players in plat-master don't really understand how hard it is to get out of bronze once you've screwed up.


Hey chain I feel your pain, I was originally placed in bronze and worked my way up to diamond. Let me tell you this.. how much u think you play well is completly wrong. I thought I played awsome at bronze it wasent until i really applied what day9 talked about with macro and learned how to defend against cheese did I progress. Make sure to analize all your replays and look for what you did wrong. Once you start improving and wining a higher % of your games you will jump leagues. Also I had my wife play and tank oen of my accounts, it took like 20+ games to get it out of the hole but it happened. Just keep playing, analyzing and improving.
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