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sick_transit
United States195 Posts
zvt: 14H, 14P, 14G: 37 food @ 7 minutes (26 drones) zvp: 14P, 14G, 20H: 35 food @ 7 minutes (+/- 26 drones) I'm highly-ranked gold. My macro obviously has a lot of room for improvement. Now I have some benchmarks to shoot for. Thanks alot for starting this thread. It helped me learn something about my play. (For instance, I started tech structures before I needed them, slowing drone production; missed larva vomits of course; too much gas too soon.) | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
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-reveNge-
77 Posts
@7 minutes 57/60 (32 drones) @10minutes 108/108(51 drones) @ 12:35 186/190 (59 drones) Followed by engagement and the win. Edit; 2-2 was finishing at time of engagement and this is off pure roach. | ||
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Vod.kaholic
United States1052 Posts
On February 10 2011 12:05 Arisen wrote: I'd reccomend against playing an actual opponent (except something like very easy AI that never attacks) The goal isn't to play vs an opponent. Rather, it's to focus on your own play to acknowledge and gap any holes in your macro. It's useless to pay attention to your opponents timings if our own aren't consistant right? Say I have a PvT build I'm working on. It's suboptimal to design a way to deal with a 4 gate when half the time I end up with 4 less units. Once our own play is refined we can deal with very specific timings and mold and shape our style until we have a reliable, tested build we can bust out at a moments notice that covers all facets of our opponents play. That is where true strategy is born. That's why I'm encouraging everyone to spend some time refining their builds and find out if they can improve and start running like a well oiled machine. I see what you mean, but I was not worried at all about what the computer was doing, I just wanted it there as a sort of test to see if my gate-cyber-gate-gate-robo thing could get out a decent amount of units in time to stop early pressure. In any case, I know now from watching those replays that I need to maintain constant probe production. There are times where I exclusively wait for chronoboost energy to make probes, and times where I needlessly cut probe production to get out some units. | ||
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shimpoe
88 Posts
57 supply 1 immortal 5 sentry 2 zealot 3 stalker rest as probes @7:00 gate gate robo gate (chrono probes) 57 supply 1 immortal 5 sentry 1 zealot 4 stalker I seem to always be around this supply with each attempt. However I don't actually use this build in games. Not to make this about my PvT strategy, but I like 2 gate+robo and a quicker expansion, with an observer out. ---- So this is what I more generally use in PvT, @7:00 gate gate robo (chrono probes)(fairly quick expansion) 55 supply 1 immortal 5 sentry 2 stalker 1 zealot 1 observer rest as probes natural expansion around 80%-85% complete What is interesting to me is how little the nexus actually slows things down; considering it isn't complete yet, I haven't inflated my supply with probes or income. I suppose the extra production of the third gateway doesn't have as large as an influence at this point as I would have assumed because it's fairly delayed and hasn't gotten a lot of use yet. I hope more people catch on and participate in this thread. It's pretty interesting comparing to yourself, but I'd love to see what some other (better) players come up with as benchmarks. | ||
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Evantas
Singapore61 Posts
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Azzur
Australia6267 Posts
If a high level player has the time to execute the same build order but just do it better, it would certainly open the eyes of a lot of players. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On February 10 2011 14:07 Azzur wrote: This is a pretty interesting post. And it's true that a lot of lower level players don't realise what a big difference good macro execution makes. Once, I was helping a friend with terran and I said, "supply 10 rax 12 gas 13 OC 15". His response was, "yes, I do it that way". When I watched the replay, I saw that he pulled his SCV to build the rax at the choke so late, it was more like rax 13. Then there was things like supply-capped, etc. If a high level player has the time to execute the same build order but just do it better, it would certainly open the eyes of a lot of players. It's pretty neat how when you build the structures exactly when you have the minerals at the proper time, and constantly make workers, things sync up very well. As soon as the barracks is finished, the Command Center is completing a worker and ready for OC. It's almost like Blizzard meant it to be that way lol. If I recall correctly, there are a couple timings for Protoss that fit like that as well. | ||
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sick_transit
United States195 Posts
In the zvp I was going for Siege's sling opening into roach/hydra. In addition to the workers I had 2 queens and the balance slings. In the zvt I was going slings into blings. I had 2 queens, bnest, lair making, balance slings. | ||
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OnlineHero
Denmark647 Posts
57/58 32 probes 7 zealots 4 stalkers 1 sentry I had about 300 minerals saved up here for the nexus. I was really suprised how much difference perfect timing makes. I started out reaching 40-45 supply and after 45 min of practice I reached 57 supply. Huge difference. I didn't really pay attention to which units I produced though. The number might be a bit lower with a faster second gas and more sentries in there. | ||
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Enyce
Germany43 Posts
Build: I did a 3 Gate into Expand adding a Robotics Facility asap after throwing down the Nexus. So in detail: 9 Pylo 13 Gateway 14 Gas 17 Cybernetics Core (when Gateway finished) *starting warp-tech instantly when warp-tech about 50% done adding 2 further Gateways when Gateways about 50% done adding second Gas when warp-tech done adding my second Nexus (around 6:10) adding Robotics facility asap after Nexus to get detection up Which works out pretty stable for me although it's not as fast with units as the OP did. (e.g. Immortal) (This is the build I choose to train my basics and get stable macro and learn upgrade timings etc.) Units: 32 Probes 2 Zealot 5 Sentries 2 Warpgates ready (65 98 Minerals or one sentry left) Robotics about 25-30% done 47/58 supply + Show Spoiler + before: 30 Probes 1 Zealot 2 Stalker 3 Sentries 3 Warpgates ready (should have build a pylon around 6:20 - 6:30) Robotics about 25-30% done 42/42 supply I spend my CB on Probes and warp-tech research and kept all my gates on cooldown. Hope this may help you, although (or even because) I made mistakes, to see what you may improve. Edit: - unit count after some tries (old version in spoiler) | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 11 2011 01:26 sick_transit wrote: @Arisen- In the zvp I was going for Siege's sling opening into roach/hydra. In addition to the workers I had 2 queens and the balance slings. In the zvt I was going slings into blings. I had 2 queens, bnest, lair making, balance slings. ZvP Roach Hydra: @7:00 50 supply 3 Hatches (2 completed and staurated, 3rd started @7:00 2 Queens Lair & Roach warren slated to finish @ same time (7/8th's complete) Metabolic Boost Complete 1 spine crawler 2 Gysers Coplete and harvesting 2 zerglings 45 Drones 5 Creep tumors ZvT Sling/Bling (w/ muta's) @7:00 50 Supply 3 2 Hatches Lair Complete 2 Queens 4 Extractors 2 Zerglings Metabolic Boost Complete Baneling Nest Completed 1/8 on Centrifugal Hooks (bling speed) 45 Drones 4 Creep Tumors | ||
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skipdog172
United States331 Posts
This thread has really turned into a discussion about how many units you can get on different early timings and that is all fine and dandy. I just think the emphasis should be on watching your own replays. Trying to judge your macro skill by looking at army numbers and game timings seems much less useful compared to simply knowing how to watch your own replay and see where you screwed up your macro. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 11 2011 03:47 OnlineHero wrote: 3 gate expand 57/58 32 probes 7 zealots 4 stalkers 1 sentry I had about 300 minerals saved up here for the nexus. I was really suprised how much difference perfect timing makes. I started out reaching 40-45 supply and after 45 min of practice I reached 57 supply. Huge difference. I didn't really pay attention to which units I produced though. The number might be a bit lower with a faster second gas and more sentries in there. @7:00 58 Supply 6 Sentries 2 Stalkers 3 Zealots 36 Probes 2 Assimilators Expo @ 29/100 3 Gates 1 Core This can be smoother, I was sloppy w/ chronoboosts If you want to expand behind 3 gates (usually v Z), you want to be really sentry heavy to save minerals, and early sentries bank energy for more FF's/GS's. To compensate, you need fast 2 Assimilators, I grabbed mine right after core. I ended @ 10 Minerals/ 94 Gas Glad the post prompted you to get some more efficiency out of your build  | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 11 2011 06:46 skipdog172 wrote: While I kind of understand the point of this post... I don't think you chose a good example at all. Clearly the "friend" is blatantly screwing up things VERY BADLY to have so few units at the 7 minute mark. How can he possibly think he is macroing good? Wouldn't him watching one replay of himself allow him to see how bad he is? To me, this just seems like a problem of the "friend" not knowing how to watch replays and judge his own play. This thread has really turned into a discussion about how many units you can get on different early timings and that is all fine and dandy. I just think the emphasis should be on watching your own replays. Trying to judge your macro skill by looking at army numbers and game timings seems much less useful compared to simply knowing how to watch your own replay and see where you screwed up your macro. The point is that lower level players think they're macroing well so put most of their practice time into other things. The point is to point out what a bit of practice in your macro and timings can do for your game. There are so many people who think at lower levels especially that when they lose to a lot of stuff early, it's because of "balance" when in reality, they could have had plenty of of units to deal with something, then they come on TL and make posts that claim imbalance, then more people start thinking that, and it becomes a big spiraling shitstorm. By posting some good examples of what you COULD have at a certain point in time, people will have a bench mark of looking at their replays. If I poorly time some buildings, I could end up with fewer probes/units/structures/upgrades, etc, and never know without the context to put into it. My last post was a great example. A guy was trying to expand early, had allot of zealots, and was on track to put down his expo a bit after 7 minutes, but by grabbing a double gas early you pour more into sentries and as a result have free minerals to start your expo early. You might not think of that without some context of WHAT is possible, he's just seeing "I was constantly producing units and probes, so I can't refine any more. There's always something to learn from other players, which is why this post exists. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 10 2011 13:21 VTreveNge wrote: ZvZ with a 15 hatch 15 pool opening. @7 minutes 57/60 (32 drones) @10minutes 108/108(51 drones) @ 12:35 186/190 (59 drones) Followed by engagement and the win. Edit; 2-2 was finishing at time of engagement and this is off pure roach. @7 Minutes 52 Supply 5 Roaches 4 extractors (2 just started) 2 Evo Chambers (@75%, enough gas to start 1/1 as they complete) Metabolic Boost Complete (zergling speed) 2 Zerglings 37 Drones 4 Creep Tumors | ||
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AKomrade
United States582 Posts
Three Rax Stim: @7:00 50 supply 8 Marauders 9 Marines 25 SCVs Thats including the ones in production. Stim and CS have finished. Also got supply blocked twice T.T | ||
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Sejanus
Lithuania550 Posts
Here's my nubish contribution. No league, single player only so far. Protoss vs Random VH AI, Lost Temple, accidently chronoboosted at supply cap once (tired atm) and ordered a zealot first because it seemed like it's gonna do zerglings. Shortly after I realized it's gonna be roaches after all, so I went double gas, 3 gateways, expand after - build, I found it works good against that kind of AI opening. 7:00 I had: 45/50 food, 50 minerals, 118 gas 3 Gateways 26 probes, 1 zealot, 2 stalkers, 3 sentries. already dead: a scouting probe; a stalker due to bad micro (tired, again) defending from roaches rush. Zealot is about to die too  On the way: Stalker in a few seconds, 2 more stalkers just started and immediately to be canceled due to warpgates research just finished. A lot to improve to... @7:00 58 Supply 6 Sentries 2 Stalkers 3 Zealots 36 Probes 2 Assimilators | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 11 2011 09:34 Sejanus wrote: This is a wonderful thread, I was looking precisely for something like this. It's always easier to improve when you have concrete short term goals, like "have that many units at that minute". Here's my nubish contribution. No league, single player only so far. Protoss vs Random VH AI, Lost Temple, accidently chronoboosted at supply cap once (tired atm) and ordered a zealot first because it seemed like it's gonna do zerglings. Shortly after I realized it's gonna be roaches after all, so I went double gas, 3 gateways, expand after - build, I found it works good against that kind of AI opening. 7:00 I had: 45/50 food, 50 minerals, 118 gas 3 Gateways 26 probes, 1 zealot, 2 stalkers, 3 sentries. already dead: a scouting probe; a zealot due to bad micro (tired, again) defending from roaches rush. On the way: Stalker in a few seconds, 2 more stalkers just started and immediately to be canceled due to warpgates research just finished. Cool, glad you like it. I already have 3 gate expand up, so you have a benchmark. Cheers | ||
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Ebos
United States44 Posts
On February 10 2011 07:48 `chain wrote: Very true. However, I do believe that there is one problem with the TL community - the players in plat-master don't really understand how hard it is to get out of bronze once you've screwed up. Hey chain I feel your pain, I was originally placed in bronze and worked my way up to diamond. Let me tell you this.. how much u think you play well is completly wrong. I thought I played awsome at bronze it wasent until i really applied what day9 talked about with macro and learned how to defend against cheese did I progress. Make sure to analize all your replays and look for what you did wrong. Once you start improving and wining a higher % of your games you will jump leagues. Also I had my wife play and tank oen of my accounts, it took like 20+ games to get it out of the hole but it happened. Just keep playing, analyzing and improving. | ||
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