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On February 11 2011 14:47 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 14:38 djdoodoo wrote:
For the 3rax Stim timing attack you might want to mention that you didn't get an orbital command because I just did a test and with orbital command tops you can get in 7 minutes is 28 on 1 base.
7:00
54 food
31 SCV's
8 Marauders 7 Marines
Concussive finishes at 7 minutes, stim already done
This is without an orbital command. I did get an orbital command? I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your post, my apologies.
I think he's saying "it's physically impossible to have 31 SCVs and an OC at 7:00"  . We can argue about it, or we can do the math ...
OC morph takes 35 seconds.
7 mins * 60 secs/min - 35 = 385 seconds worth of scv production
385 secs / 17 sec/scv = 22.6 scvs produced
22 + initial 6 scvs = 28 scvs at 7:00, with #29 halfway done.
Eeryck does have an earlier attempt at this sort of thread, which really helps to explain all of the "little things" that can go wrong with early game macro.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=182518
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Is this 7 minutes real-time, or 7 minutes in-game?
Gold Zerg here, going 14 gas 14 pool, only 36 supply @ 7 minutes in game.
http://www.mediafire.com/?9agvp81cndb8puv
I'm bad, but close to double my food count? wtf?
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On February 10 2011 13:58 shimpoe wrote:
@7:00 gate gate robo gate (chrono probes)
57 supply
1 immortal
5 sentry
2 zealot
3 stalker
rest as probes
@7:00 gate gate robo gate (chrono probes)
57 supply
1 immortal
5 sentry
1 zealot
4 stalker
I seem to always be around this supply with each attempt. However I don't actually use this build in games. Not to make this about my PvT strategy, but I like 2 gate+robo and a quicker expansion, with an observer out.
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So this is what I more generally use in PvT,
@7:00 gate gate robo (chrono probes)(fairly quick expansion)
55 supply
1 immortal
5 sentry
2 stalker
1 zealot
1 observer
rest as probes
natural expansion around 80%-85% complete
What is interesting to me is how little the nexus actually slows things down; considering it isn't complete yet, I haven't inflated my supply with probes or income. I suppose the extra production of the third gateway doesn't have as large as an influence at this point as I would have assumed because it's fairly delayed and hasn't gotten a lot of use yet.
I hope more people catch on and participate in this thread. It's pretty interesting comparing to yourself, but I'd love to see what some other (better) players come up with as benchmarks.
Err, I'd love to see these replays.
I don't think that the numbers you post are possible unless you're not sending a scouting probe and you're microing your probes to be as efficient as possible (pairing on the near patches, and so on). You're basically 10 supply ahead of 5 different variations of 2/3 gate robo I've tested, which are all between 46 and 50 supply at 7:00.
I already uploaded 2 of them responding to another guy. Here's another variation, where you get warp gates quite a bit faster to put some pressure on the terran while expanding.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=188192
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On February 11 2011 15:12 ZeroTalent wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 14:47 Arisen wrote:On February 11 2011 14:38 djdoodoo wrote:
For the 3rax Stim timing attack you might want to mention that you didn't get an orbital command because I just did a test and with orbital command tops you can get in 7 minutes is 28 on 1 base.
7:00
54 food
31 SCV's
8 Marauders 7 Marines
Concussive finishes at 7 minutes, stim already done
This is without an orbital command. I did get an orbital command? I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your post, my apologies. I think he's saying "it's physically impossible to have 31 SCVs and an OC at 7:00" . We can argue about it, or we can do the math ... OC morph takes 35 seconds. 7 mins * 60 secs/min - 35 = 385 seconds worth of scv production 385 secs / 17 sec/scv = 22.6 scvs produced 22 + initial 6 scvs = 28 scvs at 7:00, with #29 halfway done. Eeryck does have an earlier attempt at this sort of thread, which really helps to explain all of the "little things" that can go wrong with early game macro. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=182518
I might have been a bit over 7 minutes when I paused it. I'll change the numbers, thanks for pointing this out.
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Stim/Concuss 7:00 min (Stim finshes at 7:01)
58 Food <-- (In game food)
27 SCVs
8 Maruaders
8 Marines
&
(2 Maruaders in production ~15% done)
(2 Marines in production ~ 25% done)
(1 SCV 60% done)
Silver rank 10
Question: Are we posting our "in game" food or food minus what is building?
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On February 11 2011 15:37 JunTao wrote:
Stim/Concuss 7:00 min (Stim finshes at 7:01)
58 Food <-- (In game food)
27 SCVs
8 Maruaders
8 Marines
&
(2 Maruaders in production ~15% done)
(2 Marines in production ~ 25% done)
(1 SCV 60% done)
Silver rank 10
Question: Are we posting our "in game" food or food minus what is building?
In game
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On February 11 2011 15:17 Obscura.304 wrote:Is this 7 minutes real-time, or 7 minutes in-game? Gold Zerg here, going 14 gas 14 pool, only 36 supply @ 7 minutes in game. http://www.mediafire.com/?9agvp81cndb8puvI'm bad, but close to double my food count? wtf?
In game. I did something slightly different from you, I did a 14 pool, 16 hatch, gas @ 21, as that's a pretty popular build atm, accomplishes the same thing as your build while remaining safe and getting a faster second hatch. One problem you had real bad is you just let larvae chill out when you've got the money to build drones. I'm constantly just spamming 4s and the second I see a larvae, I make a drone. The only time you should ever let a larvae sit is if you have a reason not to spend it or if you're broke. You can't be late early game, as each drone mining gives you extra minerals to make more drones. Also, by letting that sit, you're killing a potential larvae (larvae won't spawn from your hatches if you have 3 already on that hatch), so you're ending up having less larvae. Zergs economy is really fragile, you need to be swift with those drones. I can upload a replay if you want. You're really late with the second hatches inject as well, your aim should be to keep your queens energy @ >28 or so.
I can upload a replay if you like.
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Could someone link me to the builds being used? Every single 3 gate robo build I've seen discussed, or on liquipedia, seems to go gate robo gate gate. As an example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=156752
The point seems to be that you need to get an observer out asap so you can scout and decide what to do from there. It's an econ build that just lets you expand pretty much when you obs scout.
So, what is this gate gate robo gate or gate gate gate robo? Is this a more pressure oriented build?
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On February 11 2011 16:39 Kier wrote:Could someone link me to the builds being used? Every single 3 gate robo build I've seen discussed, or on liquipedia, seems to go gate robo gate gate. As an example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=156752The point seems to be that you need to get an observer out asap so you can scout and decide what to do from there. It's an econ build that just lets you expand pretty much when you obs scout. So, what is this gate gate robo gate or gate gate gate robo? Is this a more pressure oriented build?
It's all what you like to do. IMO a 3 gate robo is only used when you're either A) Afraid of a timing attack, as this build is good at getting a solid defense fast, or B) When you're trying for a timing attack as well (2 Collosus w/ range timing attack, immo timing attack) while expanding behind that. It takes a long time to bank enough money to expand. The gate/robo timings are all attuned to what you want to do. If you scout 2 rax, theres no way in hell you'll go gate-robo, as you'll just have an observer that gets to have a bunch of marines/SCV's killing you. If you don't, but are going for a timing attack, your timings will be dictated by weather you want more immo's or more gateway units. Do you want to be the safest? Gate/robo would be best. Do you want to expand ASAP? Probably want a later robo so you can make more sentries. I believe in the one I did, I used Gate-Robo-Gate, there is one posted as Gate-Gate Robo.
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On February 11 2011 16:09 Arisen wrote:In game. I did something slightly different from you, I did a 14 pool, 16 hatch, gas @ 21, as that's a pretty popular build atm, accomplishes the same thing as your build while remaining safe and getting a faster second hatch. One problem you had real bad is you just let larvae chill out when you've got the money to build drones. I'm constantly just spamming 4s and the second I see a larvae, I make a drone. The only time you should ever let a larvae sit is if you have a reason not to spend it or if you're broke. You can't be late early game, as each drone mining gives you extra minerals to make more drones. Also, by letting that sit, you're killing a potential larvae (larvae won't spawn from your hatches if you have 3 already on that hatch), so you're ending up having less larvae. Zergs economy is really fragile, you need to be swift with those drones. I can upload a replay if you want. You're really late with the second hatches inject as well, your aim should be to keep your queens energy @ >28 or so. I can upload a replay if you like.
Ah, ok- the the 14 pool, 15 hatch, 21 gas does give much more food at the 7 minute mark, but its lair is super-late, unless you skip ling speed (not safe).
I watched a replay or Idra doing the build I used, and he was at 46 food at the 7 minute mark. However, since his last round of stuff was roaches instead of drones (hellions were incoming), it was kinda "maximized" for exactly that point; had he been droning, it would have been more like 41-42 (drones are only 1 supply vs. 2 for roaches).
EDIT- Also, the larvae chill period after the 15 overlord is intentional. You need it to be able to get the queen, first 4 lings, and ling speed on time.
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On February 11 2011 17:43 Obscura.304 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 16:09 Arisen wrote:On February 11 2011 15:17 Obscura.304 wrote:Is this 7 minutes real-time, or 7 minutes in-game? Gold Zerg here, going 14 gas 14 pool, only 36 supply @ 7 minutes in game. http://www.mediafire.com/?9agvp81cndb8puvI'm bad, but close to double my food count? wtf? In game. I did something slightly different from you, I did a 14 pool, 16 hatch, gas @ 21, as that's a pretty popular build atm, accomplishes the same thing as your build while remaining safe and getting a faster second hatch. One problem you had real bad is you just let larvae chill out when you've got the money to build drones. I'm constantly just spamming 4s and the second I see a larvae, I make a drone. The only time you should ever let a larvae sit is if you have a reason not to spend it or if you're broke. You can't be late early game, as each drone mining gives you extra minerals to make more drones. Also, by letting that sit, you're killing a potential larvae (larvae won't spawn from your hatches if you have 3 already on that hatch), so you're ending up having less larvae. Zergs economy is really fragile, you need to be swift with those drones. I can upload a replay if you want. You're really late with the second hatches inject as well, your aim should be to keep your queens energy @ >28 or so. I can upload a replay if you like. Ah, ok- the the 14 pool, 15 hatch, 21 gas does give much more food at the 7 minute mark, but its lair is super-late, unless you skip ling speed (not safe).
Not at all true. You get ling speed on 1 gas, add a second and lair w/ the second hundred gas. This build can deal with any type of gate timings well, as well as fast DT's, as well as stargate builds. There's no reason to rush for your lair for safety. If you mess up your lair timings, you might die to DT rushes, but it deals with everything just fine
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On February 11 2011 18:02 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 17:43 Obscura.304 wrote:On February 11 2011 16:09 Arisen wrote:On February 11 2011 15:17 Obscura.304 wrote:Is this 7 minutes real-time, or 7 minutes in-game? Gold Zerg here, going 14 gas 14 pool, only 36 supply @ 7 minutes in game. http://www.mediafire.com/?9agvp81cndb8puvI'm bad, but close to double my food count? wtf? In game. I did something slightly different from you, I did a 14 pool, 16 hatch, gas @ 21, as that's a pretty popular build atm, accomplishes the same thing as your build while remaining safe and getting a faster second hatch. One problem you had real bad is you just let larvae chill out when you've got the money to build drones. I'm constantly just spamming 4s and the second I see a larvae, I make a drone. The only time you should ever let a larvae sit is if you have a reason not to spend it or if you're broke. You can't be late early game, as each drone mining gives you extra minerals to make more drones. Also, by letting that sit, you're killing a potential larvae (larvae won't spawn from your hatches if you have 3 already on that hatch), so you're ending up having less larvae. Zergs economy is really fragile, you need to be swift with those drones. I can upload a replay if you want. You're really late with the second hatches inject as well, your aim should be to keep your queens energy @ >28 or so. I can upload a replay if you like. Ah, ok- the the 14 pool, 15 hatch, 21 gas does give much more food at the 7 minute mark, but its lair is super-late, unless you skip ling speed (not safe). Not at all true. You get ling speed on 1 gas, add a second and lair w/ the second hundred gas. This build can deal with any type of gate timings well, as well as fast DT's, as well as stargate builds. There's no reason to rush for your lair for safety. If you mess up your lair timings, you might die to DT rushes, but it deals with everything just fine
Could you post the replay? I can't imagine that build getting a lair at a roughly normal timing (finishing a bit after 7 minutes).
Also, according to this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170096
Supply at 7 minutes for a gas-pool build should be 44, + a spinecrawler (37 drones + 2 queens + 6 lings).
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This thread rocks. This will help me know what to shoot in my builds and know how far off I am right now when I analyze my replays. Thanks!
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Thanks for the replays Time/PJA. :D
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On February 11 2011 18:11 Obscura.304 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 18:02 Arisen wrote:On February 11 2011 17:43 Obscura.304 wrote:On February 11 2011 16:09 Arisen wrote:On February 11 2011 15:17 Obscura.304 wrote:Is this 7 minutes real-time, or 7 minutes in-game? Gold Zerg here, going 14 gas 14 pool, only 36 supply @ 7 minutes in game. http://www.mediafire.com/?9agvp81cndb8puvI'm bad, but close to double my food count? wtf? In game. I did something slightly different from you, I did a 14 pool, 16 hatch, gas @ 21, as that's a pretty popular build atm, accomplishes the same thing as your build while remaining safe and getting a faster second hatch. One problem you had real bad is you just let larvae chill out when you've got the money to build drones. I'm constantly just spamming 4s and the second I see a larvae, I make a drone. The only time you should ever let a larvae sit is if you have a reason not to spend it or if you're broke. You can't be late early game, as each drone mining gives you extra minerals to make more drones. Also, by letting that sit, you're killing a potential larvae (larvae won't spawn from your hatches if you have 3 already on that hatch), so you're ending up having less larvae. Zergs economy is really fragile, you need to be swift with those drones. I can upload a replay if you want. You're really late with the second hatches inject as well, your aim should be to keep your queens energy @ >28 or so. I can upload a replay if you like. Ah, ok- the the 14 pool, 15 hatch, 21 gas does give much more food at the 7 minute mark, but its lair is super-late, unless you skip ling speed (not safe). Not at all true. You get ling speed on 1 gas, add a second and lair w/ the second hundred gas. This build can deal with any type of gate timings well, as well as fast DT's, as well as stargate builds. There's no reason to rush for your lair for safety. If you mess up your lair timings, you might die to DT rushes, but it deals with everything just fine Could you post the replay? I can't imagine that build getting a lair at a roughly normal timing (finishing a bit after 7 minutes). Also, according to this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170096Supply at 7 minutes for a gas-pool build should be 44, + a spinecrawler (37 drones + 2 queens + 6 lings).
I'll get around to a rep of 14/16, but...
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137839-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
44 supply is right on. I played pretty sloppy, as I'm watching scrubs while I'm doing it. But, yeah, @ 7 minutes you're about 1-2 seconds from jumping up to something like 54ish supply with roach speed coming started (if you're not being 1-2 seconds late with your inject and building drones.
I only build 2 lings until I need more, but that's just my style.
**Also note, the 14/16 build is featured on 12 weeks with the pros on ZvP with machine on Mr. Bitter's bliptv, if you want a feel of what it looks like.
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The old 3Rax build is bronze proof, and I would even say, it is Gold/Mid-Plat proof. However, 1Rax Expand the is the build to use.
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On February 11 2011 19:15 chuigo wrote:
The old 3Rax build is bronze proof, and I would even say, it is Gold/Mid-Plat proof. However, 1Rax Expand the is the build to use.
Not the point of the thread. Please keep discussions On Topic.
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At 7 minute I have only drones
Zerg: loulz.
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On February 11 2011 19:48 WhiteDog wrote:At 7 minute I have only drones Zerg: loulz.
more efficient to get 1-2 pairs of zerglings, 1 to post outside his base to tell you when you need to build units, 1-2 to control towers. You risk losing to any small poke w/100% drones without a spotter, and all drones. In terms of a scouter, larvae wise, 1 pair of lings gives more vision than 1 drone
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So the topic of this thread is so you think you can macro?
It has devolved into a 7-minute optimization of getting units out with people even cutting workers in favor of more units (Not a good macro concept at the low levels).
Good macro and being able to macro goes well beyond 7-minutes. If you try and benchmark anything after 7-minutes there is just simply too much variations in build orders and unit compositions that it is truly worth while.
The ability to macro off a FE build once you hit full saturation is a big leap from a strong 1-base push. Your income is coming twice as fast. Then if you get a reasonably timed 3rd you will have 3 mining bases for a period, being able to have enough production to keep that money spent is a horse of a different color when compared to one basing.
So while an initial eye opening and benchmarking is useful, players should quickly move beyond this mentality. Also, players should not consider their macro good if they can match any of these timings/ unit counts.
This exercise should be considered little more than a mechanics check for one-basing. If you want to consider how well you are macroing a better exercise would be something like this:
Do a FE build
Get a third at 11-12 minutes
Stop at 200/200
Watch the replay 1 time looking at the CC/Nexus/hatch.
-note every time you miss a worker, for how long and why. (fix these problems)
Watch a second time looking at the CC/Nexus/hatch.
-note every time you miss your macro mechanic, for how long and why (fix it)
Watch a third time looking only when you get supply blocked
-not how long and why (fix it)
Watch a fourth time looking at your production facility or production tab
-note when you are not producing from any structure you have made, consider if you needed that structure that early or if you were hiding minerals by building it (fix it)
Watch the replay a fifth time looking at your money
-note every time your minerals goes over 500 (fix it only if it is not caused by items 1-4) by building more producing structures
Watch the replay a sixth time in first person view
-note what screens you are looking at and why. Macro while looking at your army or scout, check that you are constantly tapping, bounce quickly to your base to build supply or add production.
Be very very hard on yourself because even the smallest mistakes cost you units. While this 7-minute benchmark demonstrates this well, it also fails in the real game.
Consider if you get in the mentality that you should have x units at y time in game. Then you get harassed or some early pressure. Then at 7-minutes you have less units and you think "OMG I am behind" this is just a bad place to get to.
So while this is a noble benchmarking exercise, it should only be considered the first baby step to good macro.
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EPT
