EPTSeems quite a nice reference for opener benchmarks.
[D] So You Think You Can Macro? - Page 8
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
Seems quite a nice reference for opener benchmarks. | ||
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Katsumoto
United Kingdom9 Posts
34 probes 3 zealots 1 stalker 4 sentries 1 immortals 2 observer 7 minute mark. >> Platinum 1500. | ||
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
On February 10 2011 07:56 Shifft wrote: This is a misconception that I see a lot actually, with the way the ladder system works if you go on a win streak your MMR will rise rapidly. I would say that if someone in bronze suddenly starts winning every one of their games they will be in masters within 50-60 games. I'd contest this. I'm silver and am up 29 wins over my last 42 games, am currently on an 11 game winning streak (3 of which were fellow silvers, 6 of which were gold and the remaining two platinum) and it has so far refused to promote me. From what I understand, this is because the matchmaking isn't sure I'm just getting lucky or actually have improved. Though it doesn't have much of a problem matching me against people "better" than me even though it claims they're even matches, it is reluctant to promote me in case I'm just streaking and haven't actually improved. Either that, or it just hates me. | ||
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Mic2070
France6 Posts
I think the best "scores" (and their replay) should be added to the liquipedia articles of their respective builds- it's a much clearer indicator of what to expect from them and could solve much of the beginners' problems. | ||
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fenix404
United States305 Posts
g-r-g-g 7:00 Placed pylon @ 42/42 1 immo, 2nd ~45% 2 zealots, 3rd almost done 2 sentries 2nd gate almost done, 3rd 50% WG tech – 2 s left 50 min, 300gas | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
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ButtCraft
United States114 Posts
at 7:00 yields 50 supply, and 2 mules. Units: 29 scvs 21 marines. This is a special variant I use in TvZ. I do the normal 2rax expand (expand at 5 marines), but I keep adding in barracks as my income allows while keeping constant scv+marine production. There are 4 marines in production at 7:00. The upside to this build is an almost 100% winrate vs zerg. I can max out at the 12:30 mark with only marines. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On May 25 2011 20:34 ButtCraft wrote: 2rax expand: 900 point master terran player here at 7:00 yields 50 supply, and 2 mules. Units: 29 scvs 21 marines. This is a special variant I use in TvZ. I do the normal 2rax expand (expand at 5 marines), but I keep adding in barracks as my income allows while keeping constant scv+marine production. There are 4 marines in production at 7:00. The upside to this build is an almost 100% winrate vs zerg. I can max out at the 12:30 mark with only marines. Sounds like a 0% winrate if zerg went banelings, which they obviously did when they scouted you. | ||
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adwodon
United Kingdom592 Posts
I found it worked 100% macro focus until the diamond league border. Once you get there it cycles a bit between gaining more understanding then improving your mechanics to ultilize this understanding etc For instance, I had good enough macro to break diamond league, I would beat diamond zergs / terrans a lot but I couldnt beat protoss, a leap in my understanding of TvP took me to diamond league, then increasing my understanding of TvZ and TvT took my top diamond. Now I am there I feel like I have 'good' macro but by that I mean relative to my league but in my current position I feel like the key to my next big 'jump' in skill is entirely mechanics, I spent enough time figuring things out and that helped but now im being held back by multitasking and mid-late game macro as opposed to some fundamental flaw in my gameplay. I think the problem here lies with peoples understanding of what people are saying, I know a tonne of diamond / masters level guys who took the macro till diamond to mean once you're there your mechanics are fine, you macro fine, so theres no need to improve them, which actually leads to a lot of imbalance arguements which are actually just a case of someone losing because the other player had better mechanics. Everyone should focus on their mechanics, but I think what people dont quite get is that throughout your progression there are periods where its understanding holding you back, even at the crazy top level this is still true, just as it is at the bronze league, its just that the knowledge you gain before diamond league is generally conceptually easy or often straightforward stuff you pick up almost by osmosis, so focusing on mechanics whilst playing will gain you enough knowledge. | ||
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xTrim
472 Posts
I think the problem here lies with peoples understanding of what people are saying, I know a tonne of diamond / masters level guys who took the macro till diamond to mean once you're there your mechanics are fine, you macro fine, so theres no need to improve them, which actually leads to a lot of imbalance arguements which are actually just a case of someone losing because the other player had better mechanics. Everyone should focus on their mechanics, but I think what people dont quite get is that throughout your progression there are periods where its understanding holding you back, even at the crazy top level this is still true, just as it is at the bronze league, its just that the knowledge you gain before diamond league is generally conceptually easy or often straightforward stuff you pick up almost by osmosis, so focusing on mechanics whilst playing will gain you enough knowledge. This.. Btw, Grand Master in Latin America server here. | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On May 26 2011 01:10 adwodon wrote: High diamond player here, started out in bronze and went for the macro approach. I found it worked 100% macro focus until the diamond league border. Once you get there it cycles a bit between gaining more understanding then improving your mechanics to ultilize this understanding etc For instance, I had good enough macro to break diamond league, I would beat diamond zergs / terrans a lot but I couldnt beat protoss, a leap in my understanding of TvP took me to diamond league, then increasing my understanding of TvZ and TvT took my top diamond. Now I am there I feel like I have 'good' macro but by that I mean relative to my league but in my current position I feel like the key to my next big 'jump' in skill is entirely mechanics, I spent enough time figuring things out and that helped but now im being held back by multitasking and mid-late game macro as opposed to some fundamental flaw in my gameplay. I think the problem here lies with peoples understanding of what people are saying, I know a tonne of diamond / masters level guys who took the macro till diamond to mean once you're there your mechanics are fine, you macro fine, so theres no need to improve them, which actually leads to a lot of imbalance arguements which are actually just a case of someone losing because the other player had better mechanics. Everyone should focus on their mechanics, but I think what people dont quite get is that throughout your progression there are periods where its understanding holding you back, even at the crazy top level this is still true, just as it is at the bronze league, its just that the knowledge you gain before diamond league is generally conceptually easy or often straightforward stuff you pick up almost by osmosis, so focusing on mechanics whilst playing will gain you enough knowledge. Mechanics are the most important part of the game. You can get into Masters just by being able to mkae workers, units and keeping your money low constantly. Once you hit Masters you will have to learn timings as well, but mechanics are still more important in my book. | ||
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FenneK
France1231 Posts
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ButtCraft
United States114 Posts
On May 25 2011 22:49 Tobberoth wrote: Sounds like a 0% winrate if zerg went banelings, which they obviously did when they scouted you. You can absolutely crush them through sheer numbers and good marine control, even if they make banelings. In fact I want the zerg player to make banelings, because banelings do not have staying power. The point of the build is to be 100% mineral efficient and keep literally constant pressure (starting with your first 5 marines and 2 scvs for bunker/blocking. If you have already made 130 marines by 12:30 like you should if you did perfect macro, there is no way for the zerg to have more units than you at that point in the game unless he got several sick baneling splashes. | ||
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Biokronos
Philippines3 Posts
I was stuck in Bronze just recently (in SEA), but I'd like to post my times anyways. This is an FE build involving a reactor or a barracks, so really, meant to have slightly low food by now. 49/62 (cc just finished, rax is going down-- stim is halfway) - 7:00 86/86 (got sup blocked D'  - 10:00 | ||
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ckcornflake
United States53 Posts
On May 26 2011 02:28 GreEny K wrote: Mechanics are the most important part of the game. You can get into Masters just by being able to mkae workers, units and keeping your money low constantly. Once you hit Masters you will have to learn timings as well, but mechanics are still more important in my book. Please stop perpetuating this idea that macro alone can get you in to Masters. Macro is indeed very important and can get you pretty far (I would say Gold-Platinum), but Master level players do a lot more than just macro well. I think there are lot of Diamond-Master level players that take a lot of skills and knowledge they have for granted. For example being able to keep your money low, etc., doesn't mean shit when you don't know a cloaked banshee is coming and you aren't prepared. Higher level players definitely have at least an idea what's coming. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On May 26 2011 07:55 ckcornflake wrote: Please stop perpetuating this idea that macro alone can get you in to Masters. Macro is indeed very important and can get you pretty far (I would say Gold-Platinum), but Master level players do a lot more than just macro well. I think there are lot of Diamond-Master level players that take a lot of skills and knowledge they have for granted. For example being able to keep your money low, etc., doesn't mean shit when you don't know a cloaked banshee is coming and you aren't prepared. Higher level players definitely have at least an idea what's coming. No, keep on perpetuating this idea, because it is literally true. Look, Micro and interesting timings and cool compositions might increase your army's damage output by 10-15%, but so would have 10-15% more army and 10-15% more income with a simple composition. Mechanics, Macro and basic micro will get you into Master's League. I know this because I'm in Diamond League and my macro is terrible compared to Masters players. They may have stronger micro or a better understanding of the game than I do, but it wasn't the case that they used timing and understanding to get into Masters then picked up their superior macro once they got there-- rather, it is the other way around. So, I get outmicroed and countered or am up against a strong composition, but he also simply has more stuff than I do, so nothing else matters. When I win against lower league players in koth matches, it's rarely because my amazing timing attack or ultimate theorycraft defeats them-- I'm relatively bad at those things. I just have more stuff. To get into Master's League, you need only a few things: 1) Master League Macro 2) A very basic understanding of micro, composition, and timing. 3) Basic Crisis management You know all those guys who got into Master League because of their theorycraft and insane micro able to overcome their Plat League macro? No? Me neither. I read somewhere that the first step to become great is realizing that you suck. I know I suck at macro, and that's the reason I'm not in Master's. Is your excuse really that your macro is fine but something else is lacking? | ||
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ionize
Ireland399 Posts
I fast forwarded a replay against the AI and ended up with 30 Probes 1 Observer 1 Zealot 1 Stalker 3 Sentries 2nd Observer 55% Nexus 33% I expanded after I started my 1st observer and put the additional two gates down soon after (just as a sidenote). Can any of the higher ranked players please play this way and give me a benchmark?! | ||
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
On May 26 2011 07:55 ckcornflake wrote: Please stop perpetuating this idea that macro alone can get you in to Masters. Macro is indeed very important and can get you pretty far (I would say Gold-Platinum), but Master level players do a lot more than just macro well. I think there are lot of Diamond-Master level players that take a lot of skills and knowledge they have for granted. For example being able to keep your money low, etc., doesn't mean shit when you don't know a cloaked banshee is coming and you aren't prepared. Higher level players definitely have at least an idea what's coming. true. the majority of low-mid master players have medicore mechanics, they just possess the knowhow to execute flavour of the month builds, applying pressure and safely expanding are a given. mechanics seperate the men from the boys in master/gm, because the knowhow is pretty easy to pick up. a gold player who watches a few dozen pro replays already has the knowhow. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
Why? Because when people start to bank money, they start to spam production facilities. They over make production, spend more money on it, keep their money low, and have no supply in units. Terrans also queue units (they all do except pros.) if you ever watched an fpvod of a bw pro gamer, they would be macroing off 8 barracks in TvZ, and would make a production cycle by clicking each barracks and train a marine. And they didn't even queue. It is startling, it is like larvae injection in sc2, except you have option the queue. However, pros tried not to! So this lead to every production round being comletely manual and not queued. Doesn't DDE macro brood war style? Idk, but it is my opinion that the MBS and easy rally points have made players lazy about their macro (for Terran) and thus, people who are keeping their money low, actually have bad macro. | ||
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