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This thread was sparked by a conversation I had with another poster in another thread as well as a comment from a recent day9 netcast. Day9 said something pretty interesting. Allot of people think they're macroing well, but it's the small things that add up. He told an anecdote about his fiend being 40 food behind him with the same build at the same time in the game.
So, this morning in a thread I was talking to this guy who said his friend was trying the whole "diamond on macro" theory, and was getting majorly screwed up when a stim push got to his base and he would lose every time because he couldn't get the forcefield in the right position and was stuck with
"1 immortal, a few zealots or stalkers, and a sentry"
and the Terran would kill him every time. Further, the poster thought the community was leading astray the new faces of TL with the advice to only focus on macro, that you needed little micro tricks to survive "cheese". While I don't think any zerg who has been 6 pooled will argue that you do need micro a bit every now and then, I felt that this view was flawed, and his friend was learning at a much accelerated rate and once he could account for aggressive 1 base plays, he would skyrocket into higher leagues with his good macro. I decided to test this guy's theory, so I loaded up single player vs the easy AI on the closest positions possible besides steppes; close meta.
Well, I said, First I need to figure out how fast, theoretically, this push is going to happen, and how much shit he's going to have. So I spawned the terran pieces, and went to work. I made some blunders a few times, and quickly restarted, and played the first 2-3 minutes over again, until I executed this build very crisply. I then said to myself, there are 2 timings within a 3 rax. Stim finishing and concussive shell finishing. The much more common varinant would be with concussive, IMO, so I said I'd hit his ramp as concussive shell finished. I wasn't perfect when doing it, but I got some baseline numbers
+ Show Spoiler +@ ~7:00 the attack reaches your ramp w/ 6 marauders, 5 marines, and 2 marauders and 2 marines arriving shortly thereafter. Wonderful.
I then said, you know what, lets try to get the fastest possible push with stim, so I shipped out ealier, with the goal of arriving at his ramp as stim finishes. Here are the numbers
+ Show Spoiler +6:20 with attack reaches you with about 4 marauders and 3 marines with 1 marauder and 2 marines on the way.
I was really crisp with the second one, I wanted to know exactly how fast/powerful this push could potentially be.
I then took his build, and played it for 10 or so minutes from the prospective of a person who wants to macro well, as well as not seen this attack coming. I just chronoed out probes the entire time. These are my numbers
@ 6:20
+ Show Spoiler +-28 probes
-Warpgate and 3rd gate just finished
-robo 1/4 done with one immo
-1 stalker
-2 zealots
-2 sentries
-3 additional gateway units about to be made
@ 7:00
+ Show Spoiler +-Immortal due to pop out any second
-2 sentries
-33 probes
-2 zealots
-3 additional gateway units
-3 gateway units set to arrive in about 8 seconds.
So, looking at the time our protoss hero is having problems is a stim timing. I have a hard time believeing that the terran pushed without concussive shells vs protoss, so I'm leaning toward using the 7:00 timing, and he said he had an immortal, and I got mine pretty fast, and it seems like it comes out right around 7 minutes or so. This is a close to optimized timing for terran, likely this push would be delayed by :30-1:00. Anywho, we'll use the time when the immortal popped.
His friend had:
+ Show Spoiler +1 Immortal
2 Zealots
1 Sentry
I had:
+ Show Spoiler +1 Immortal
2 Sentries
3 zealots
3 of any core-tech gateway unit
3 more set to pop out any second.
In the same period of time, and perhaps less time, his army was only about a third as big as mine. When looking at my 7:00 army vs the terran's 7:00 army, I'm not the least bit worried. When I look at his friends 7:00 army vs the terran's, I'm thinking that looks really scary.
I thought that was really interesting. This player though he had good macro and he was losing just because of cheese, but had he really been macroing decently, even had his opponent been macroing well too, he would have won that fight pretty easily.
I've reformatted this thread for simplicities sake. Here's your chance to help the community out fellow Team Liquid Members. Lower ranked members, choose a simple, common build, and open single player and do it. Stop around 7-8 Minutes. Watch the replay, and pause at the 7:00 Mark.Write down what your food is at, How many workers you have, How many of each unit you have Any relavevent structures/ups, i.e expansions, evolution chambers, upgrades, etc. For instance, say I did a 1 rax FE, adding on barracks and getting 1/1 ups and medivacs. At 7 Minutes, I had x marines, Y medivacs, z scv's, 1/1, stim and combat shield. Make sure to include any major goals you have such as upgrades upcoming expansions, structures, etc, etc, etc
Higher ranked players, if you have some spare time, go through these basic build orders in single player. Follow the same process. The Idea is for lower level players to see the difference really good macro can make at the same time in their games in a timeframe, with the build they're already using. You'll be surprised how big of a lead little patches in you mechanics will gain you. We're hoping to spark players of all calibers to look at their play and ask if better execution could make their play smoother and enjoyable. I'm going to to my best to collect the most well executed and add them into the posts as benchmarks for improvement, push the boundaries, you might improve on the build that high masters player knocked out. Don't be shy, if you think you can beat a posted build, go for it, and set that bar high!
Big Shoutout to Day9, the inspiration for this thread, check out DND 252 for allot of the concepts covered in this thread. Also big shoutouts to anyone who helps with questions, their own examples, or what have you.
Cheers Team Liquid
3 Gate Robo (G-G-R-G)
+ Show Spoiler +7:00 minutes.
57 food
33 Probes
1 immortal, 1 zealot, 5 sentry, 4 stalkers
Chrono Boosts on Probes
3 Gate Expand
+ Show Spoiler +@7:00
58 Supply
6 Sentries
2 Stalkers
3 Zealots
36 Probes
2 Assimilators
Expo @ 29/100
3 Gates
1 Core
2 Gate Robo (G-G-R)
+ Show Spoiler +@7:00
55 supply
1 immortal
5 sentry
2 stalker
1 zealot
1 observer
Rest As Probes (33?)
Chronoboosting Probes
natural expansion around 80%-85% complete
3gate robo (g-r-g-g)
+ Show Spoiler +@7min
33 probes
2obs
4 stalker
2zealots
3 sentries
53 supply
3 Rax Stim/Concussive Timing attack (constant SCV's)
+ Show Spoiler +7:00
55 food
27 SCV's
7 Marauders 7 Marines
Concussive should finish at 7 minutes, stim already done (mine was late b/c of mistake)
3 Rax Stim/Concussive Timing attack (cut SCV's)
+ Show Spoiler +@7:00
56 supply
22 scvs
8 marauders (with 1 80% done)
9 marines (with 1 99% done)
ZvP Roach Hydra:
+ Show Spoiler +@7:00
50 supply
3 Hatches (2 completed and staurated, 3rd started @7:00
2 Queens
Lair & Roach warren slated to finish @ same time (7/8th's complete)
Metabolic Boost Complete
1 spine crawler
2 Gysers Coplete and harvesting
2 zerglings
45 Drones
5 Creep tumors
ZvT Sling/Bling (w/ muta's)
+ Show Spoiler +@7:00
50 Supply
3 2 Hatches
Lair Complete
2 Queens
4 Extractors
2 Zerglings
Metabolic Boost Complete
Baneling Nest Completed
1/8 on Centrifugal Hooks (bling speed)
45 Drones
4 Creep Tumors
15 Hatch Roach (ZvZ)
+ Show Spoiler +@7 Minutes
52 Supply
5 Roaches
4 extractors (2 just started)
2 Evo Chambers (@75%, enough gas to start 1/1 as they complete)
Metabolic Boost Complete (zergling speed)
2 Zerglings
37 Drones
4 Creep Tumors
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Defending a stim push is as much about knowing exactly when it's coming as it is about making enough stuff. Always have a spotter outside his main and outside your own.
I admit, throwing that perfect forcefield can be tough when you let Terran stim out of the fog of war and immediately onto the ramp. But if you are patient and watching, chopping the army is easy.
I like the idea of the post though, I'm definately going to try and refine my 1 gate robo opening tonight and post the results! Doing this kind of work with each of one's respective builds really help because it does the two things you already mentioned: your build will improve and more importantly it will enlighten the possibilities of your opponent (making you less nervous, more capable of scouting and waiting rather than hoping.
Cheers
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I'm not ingame, but I know as a Bronze protoss, I'm generally in mid-40's food by 7:00, which seems to exceed most other bronzes that I have checked. As Terran, lately, I've been at 50-52 unless I screw up, which I haven't seen anyone in bronze compare with yet. Oh, and that includes upgrades like Stim and Concussive.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
I'm sure this will be an eye opener to all the lower league players who think their macro is 'decent'. Good initiative.
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1 gateway and 1 robo can defend any early stim opening.
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On February 10 2011 05:31 Pebbz wrote:
1 gateway and 1 robo can defend any early stim opening.
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Apparently the OP does not know what scouting or sentries are.
User was warned for this post
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On February 10 2011 05:31 Pebbz wrote:
1 gateway and 1 robo can defend any early stim opening.
I believe the point of the thread was to compare the difference in the macro of players of different skill (and thus helping players to learn what openings can potentially have)
But yeah, I think the person should focus on blocking/splitting up the terran force with the forcefield (and using a probe or even an observer if they get one pre-immortal to scout out when the army is moving out and up his ramp), alongside improving macro.
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On February 10 2011 05:26 Kaitlin wrote:
I'm not ingame, but I know as a Bronze protoss, I'm generally in mid-40's food by 7:00, which seems to exceed most other bronzes that I have checked. As Terran, lately, I've been at 50-52 unless I screw up, which I haven't seen anyone in bronze compare with yet. Oh, and that includes upgrades like Stim and Concussive.
Actually that's very good even for diamond level. Depends on the tech path, of course, but still very good.
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If you tell a high master player and a low master player (fresh out of diamond) to do the same build, I'm guessing the lower guy would have 160 supply at the time the higher guy maxes out. Yes, there are many people who think they have good macro when they actually don't, and this is the source of many [H] threads.
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I think my comment would reinforce the idea that macro is important, no? If two production buildings can fend off early pressure that either means Protoss is grossly imba, or constant production out of those buildings can cause you to not die.. at all.
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On February 10 2011 05:47 Pebbz wrote:
I think my comment would reinforce the idea that macro is important, no? If two production buildings can fend off early pressure that either means Protoss is grossly imba, or constant production out of those buildings can cause you to not die.. at all.
It was pointing out a strategy, which has nothing to do with mechanics/macro. This isn't about a build, or a matchup, or even a race. This is about giving the tools to the community to grow in understanding by showing the possibilities of strong mechanics/macro.
Pointing out "This guy could have done this!" has absolutely dick to do with the fact that he was missing out on a whole bunch of units. I'm not mad, trolls will be trolls, but read OP's before posting in the future, please.
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Arisen - I have spoken to this before, created a post on it, attempted to do a guide where I did most of the work. The result each time is that there is not enough community interest in establishing this type of information.
After some further reflection, I think I understand that thinking in terms of x build, y units at z time is just too rigid thinking for the game anywhere but the lowest levels. It is considered unnecessary because of the cardinal rules of macro:
1. Always make workers
2. Never get supply blocked
3. Always produce from your unit structures
4. Keep your money low
5. Always use your macro mechanic when you have the energy (with a slight early game exception for protoss)
On your self analysis these are things you can easily check.
1. Did your CC/Nexus production bar ever stop, even for a second? If it did you could have had more stuff. No it is not ok for small breaks that is the opposite of what "Always" means.
2. Did you get supply blocked for even a second? food cap block?
3. Did your production bar above your unit structures ever stop, even for a second?
4. Did you ever have all your buildings producing and then have money to build another structure?
5. What was your CC/Nexus/Hatch energy?
If people would just understand that you need to make sure you are following all of these rules at the same time to have the maximum army out, and that small mistakes cost a lot of units then they could get better at macro on their own.
Sure no one is perfect, "even IdRa has extra energy on his queens." The better you want to be at this game the closer to perfect your macro needs to be and the more harshly you must evaluate your own play.
It is easy to fall into the trap of thinking that since I am in bronze, it is ok if I get supply blocked for 5-seconds occasionally because my macro is still better than the average bronze player.
It is ok if I miss a production cycle and build and extra supply depot I don't need yet to keep my money low because most bronze players don't spend their money.
It is ok if I take a second gas before I need it, because I was supply blocked, might as well get stim early too so I am keeping my money low.
It is ok if I am on one base till 10 minutes because, I spent all my money so my macro is good.
This thinking works for a while till you start to face players who focus on units and keeping their money low, expanding and their build crisp. Now the band-aids that you have put on your bumps in order to satisfy the rules you favor and ignore the ones that were too much trouble start to lose you games.
So all that really needs to happen is be honest with your self in evaluation of how well you are conforming to the 5-rules and make no allowance for breaking them even in the slightest and your macro will be good. Hell even your expansion timings will start to make more sense.
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oGsMC streamed today and i took a look at his food in a PvT.
At 10 minutes he had about 100 food on two bases and at 15 minutes he had about 175 food with a fourth base going up. Just saying bases to give an idea on how many probes he's making. Most units were gateway units and high templar.
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On February 10 2011 07:08 Eeryck wrote:
Arisen - I have spoken to this before, created a post on it, attempted to do a guide where I did most of the work. The result each time is that there is not enough community interest in establishing this type of information.
After some further reflection, I think I understand that thinking in terms of x build, y units at z time is just too rigid thinking for the game anywhere but the lowest levels. It is considered unnecessary because of the cardinal rules of macro:
1. Always make workers
2. Never get supply blocked
3. Always produce from your unit structures
4. Keep your money low
5. Always use your macro mechanic when you have the energy (with a slight early game exception for protoss)
On your self analysis these are things you can easily check.
1. Did your CC/Nexus production bar ever stop, even for a second? If it did you could have had more stuff. No it is not ok for small breaks that is the opposite of what "Always" means.
2. Did you get supply blocked for even a second? food cap block?
3. Did your production bar above your unit structures ever stop, even for a second?
4. Did you ever have all your buildings producing and then have money to build another structure?
5. What was your CC/Nexus/Hatch energy?
If people would just understand that you need to make sure you are following all of these rules at the same time to have the maximum army out, and that small mistakes cost a lot of units then they could get better at macro on their own.
Sure no one is perfect, "even IdRa has extra energy on his queens." The better you want to be at this game the closer to perfect your macro needs to be and the more harshly you must evaluate your own play.
It is easy to fall into the trap of thinking that since I am in bronze, it is ok if I get supply blocked for 5-seconds occasionally because my macro is still better than the average bronze player.
It is ok if I miss a production cycle and build and extra supply depot I don't need yet to keep my money low because most bronze players don't spend their money.
It is ok if I take a second gas before I need it, because I was supply blocked, might as well get stim early too so I am keeping my money low.
It is ok if I am on one base till 10 minutes because, I spent all my money so my macro is good.
This thinking works for a while till you start to face players who focus on units and keeping their money low, expanding and their build crisp. Now the band-aids that you have put on your bumps in order to satisfy the rules you favor and ignore the ones that were too much trouble start to lose you games.
So all that really needs to happen is be honest with your self in evaluation of how well you are conforming to the 5-rules and make no allowance for breaking them even in the slightest and your macro will be good. Hell even your expansion timings will start to make more sense.
While all this information is accurate, and useful in the application of the purpose of this thread, it does little for the thread itself. The power in this exercise is seeing the power of its application. Doing the exact same thing as me he has 3x as many units at the same time is much more powerful in showing the efficacy of a macro oriented approach toward the game than a method of doing it and saying you'll have more units.
I encourage everyone to participate, with either a question or an example. I refuse to believe that the Team Liquid Community doesn't care enough to give back to it's newer members. Cheers everyone.
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I'm Terran ~2763 points and 124 bonus pool in masters
Had exactly 50 food at 7 min from a FE build. Combat shields about to finish and enough gas for stim.
Edit: and 28 SCVs
Interesting concept. I'm interested to see what others get.
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On February 10 2011 07:19 Arisen wrote:
I refuse to believe that the Team Liquid Community doesn't care enough to give back to it's newer members. Cheers everyone.
Very true. However, I do believe that there is one problem with the TL community - the players in plat-master don't really understand how hard it is to get out of bronze once you've screwed up. I've been stuck at Bronze 1 for about a month because I dropped ~15 games due to my stupid internet T~T - or maybe I just don't play enough.
As for myself, I've been working on my macro a lot - I stopped 4gating after I realized it would get me to perhaps mid-diamond, but I would eventually have to work on macro. At first, I was sure I could climb the ladder quickly and get to silver/gold, but it turns out it's actually a lot more work than I first thought. However, I'm working on it- and I'm hovering at about 50/50 win ratio. Looks like I need more work. 
Now, I have a question. I saw the diamond on macro only thread, and I want to try that. However, I'm hovering around 100W/80L, so I'm probably not going anywhere soon. Even though you probably wouldn't care about my rank, I've been dying to know how long it would take me to get to at least gold.
Would anyone care to help?
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On February 10 2011 07:48 `chain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 07:19 Arisen wrote:
I refuse to believe that the Team Liquid Community doesn't care enough to give back to it's newer members. Cheers everyone. Very true. However, I do believe that there is one problem with the TL community - the players in plat-master don't really understand how hard it is to get out of bronze once you've screwed up. I've been stuck at Bronze 1 for about a month because I dropped ~15 games due to my stupid internet T~T - or maybe I just don't play enough. As for myself, I've been working on my macro a lot - I stopped 4gating after I realized it would get me to perhaps mid-diamond, but I would eventually have to work on macro. At first, I was sure I could climb the ladder quickly and get to silver/gold, but it turns out it's actually a lot more work than I first thought. However, I'm working on it- and I'm hovering at about 50/50 win ratio. Looks like I need more work. Now, I have a question. I saw the diamond on macro only thread, and I want to try that. However, I'm hovering around 100W/80L, so I'm probably not going anywhere soon. Even though you probably wouldn't care about my rank, I've been dying to know how long it would take me to get to at least gold. Would anyone care to help?
This is a misconception that I see a lot actually, with the way the ladder system works if you go on a win streak your MMR will rise rapidly. I would say that if someone in bronze suddenly starts winning every one of their games they will be in masters within 50-60 games.
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Alright so, I saw Trump do this TvP style that looked alot like the 2 Thor Push Janook made. What really made me want to steal this build was the fact that it should have a pretty easy time holding off a 4 warpgate build despite my poor micro(as long as you get a good surround on your thor with your SCVs repairing you should be gold, right?).
I went gas before rax, After 4 marines I got a reactor on my rax. Second gas after Factory. Helion before Techlab while waiting for the armory to finish.
At the 7 minute mark(where most 4warpgates hit afaik) I had:
+ Show Spoiler +
26 SCVs
1 Thor
10 Marines
1 Helion(Would have if I werent a dumbass and left it do die to the medium AI's Zeals ._.)
Second thor at 40%
+1 Vehicle Plating just started
Same game at 10 Minutes;
+ Show Spoiler +34 SCVs
3 Thor
22 Marines
+1 Vehicle Plating
250mm Strike Cannons
Expo at natural at 67%
+1 Vehicle Weapons just started
Just Begun to add second Rax/fact.
Gonna go try out that FE build and see what I can cook up.
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@Shifft- Thanks for the info. Too bad I can't get anything past a 5 winstreak
@Sonic - Even thought you probably won't run into this, a 4gate 1gas is going to kill you @6:00. I'll try this out later, but I'd get gateway units to tank/kill scvs, and ~2 imms to take care of your thor. Perhaps a sentry to hold off the marines?
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On February 10 2011 07:19 Arisen wrote:
While all this information is accurate, and useful in the application of the purpose of this thread, it does little for the thread itself. The power in this exercise is seeing the power of its application. Doing the exact same thing as me he has 3x as many units at the same time is much more powerful in showing the efficacy of a macro oriented approach toward the game than a method of doing it and saying you'll have more units.
I encourage everyone to participate, with either a question or an example. I refuse to believe that the Team Liquid Community doesn't care enough to give back to it's newer members. Cheers everyone.
I don't mind being a Bronze Guinea Pig. Here's a replay where at 7:00, I have:
50/59 food
25 SCVs (1 more on the way)
5 Marauders (2 more on the way)
9 Marines (2 more on the way)
Concussive Completed
Stim to complete at 8:24
EBay completed
Orbital completed
My opponent was at 40/43 at this point.
Watching just this part of the replay, I see things that obviously can be improved. I supply blocked myself. I had a bit of a hiccup on creating the orbital, making and canceling SCVs a couple of times. I was basically executing a 3 Rax, 2 Techs, 1 Reactor, which would turn into an attack and expansion. I've only been playing Terran for a couple of days, so I was pretty much winging the build order after about when I make the Orbital. I also didn't scout.
As for the results of this game, I lost mainly for 2 reasons. I was an idiot and suicided too many troops and 2, just lack of familiarity playing Terran. I've been playing Protoss until a few days ago. If you want to offer suggestions on other things I did wrong, I'll take them in, but I'm not asking for help, just contributing some input to the thread from a Bronze perspective.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137235-1v1-terran-lost-temple
I'm the Red Terran named 'Random'.
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On February 10 2011 08:08 `chain wrote:
@Sonic - Even thought you probably won't run into this, a 4gate 1gas is going to kill you @6:00. I'll try this out later, but I'd get gateway units to tank/kill scvs, and ~2 imms to take care of your thor. Perhaps a sentry to hold off the marines?
Cheers for the advise, though if you poke the front with your Helion you should be able to get a clear tell if it is a fourgate, and then you can cut gas and get a bunker. There are countless threads on shutting down 4gates tho so lets not clog up this thread anymore 
E: 250mm Strike cannons will deal with the immortals, assuming you bring SCVs the Thors will be really hard to kill, even with SCVs taking the same threat as the thors. The marines will chew the gateway units real fast as well. Also with some control FF's will be garbage.
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I plan on practicing my macro a lot this weekend. I know I won't get CLOSE to oGsMC, but maybe I can try to get half? lol
MC is a freakin' beast...
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I thought about making a thread sort of like this, but much more streamlined. But I've never created a thread here and wasn't sure it would appropriate.
My thought was similar to the original macroing to diamond idea. Instead of your OP which is more open-ended, by thought would be this:
- set up a game Xel'Naga Caverns against Very Easy AI.
- your goal is to make as many stalkers as you can
- you must make at least 1 stalker before your first expansion (just to make it sort of realistic)
- post with a replay, note how many stalkers you had at 7 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes (if necessary), and how long until you reached 200/200 supply. Note how many stalkers you have at that point (you will have probes too).
- post with your which league you are in
and then the post would keep track of who had the best times in each league. I hadn't ironed out all the details yet (mostly dealing with you can sort of cheat to get to 200/200 by mass making probes), or whether there could be sometime substituted for stalkers for other races.
Does that sound like an interesting exercise?
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Just thought I'd add that good mechanics are essential for good macro, so watch day9 #252 + 257:
Day9 Daily #252
Day9 Daily #257
Especially focus on the 'tap' (he will drill this into your brain). Just do it. All the time.
The way I understand it is mechanics is a means to macro is a means to an optimized build is a means to a strategy. If you are weak on any of the foundation your strategy will never play properly.
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Basically same thread was made a little while ago:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=178627
With some effort all players can understand their efficiency for a particular build. Besides the issue of initial effort the issue is with getting them to understand the optimal or how "squeeze every ounce of efficiency out of their builds". I don't think there is any real shortcut here besides a ton of solid knowledge about how your race works, their economy, unit timings, building timings, ability to execute and think fast enough, and so on.
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I know people sayin putting units in the queue is bad, but it allows you to train units continuously. If you are late in warp gate warp ins, those seconds compound throughout the game, which can cause problems like in the OP.
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On February 10 2011 08:53 sambour wrote:Just thought I'd add that good mechanics are essential for good macro, so watch day9 #252 + 257: Day9 Daily #252Day9 Daily #257Especially focus on the 'tap' (he will drill this into your brain). Just do it. All the time. The way I understand it is mechanics is a means to macro is a means to an optimized build is a means to a strategy. If you are weak on any of the foundation your strategy will never play properly.
I've wondered about the tap. I always have trouble withstanding new units just as the last ones finish, I always end up with idle time or things queued up. Problem is, as soon as I start exploiting MBS and put more then one rax in a ctrl group the tap does not work. Being a player who likes bio and gets a second barracks quite fast the tap seems nearly useless for unit production.
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Mid diamond protoss
gateway gateway robo gateway style build
7:00 minutes.
I had 57 supply
1 immortal, 1 zealot, 5 sentry, 4 stalkers, rest in probes.
I was mostly chrono-boosting probes.
120 minerals / 12 vespene gas left over.
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1-7th ranked silver league terran, depending if i'm laddering alot in the week, foods usually 45 - 50when my first Medivac pops for a drop with 8-10 marines and two siege tanks, with seige mode, at about 7:30 or so, on a good day atleast, I should go check though lol
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On February 10 2011 09:11 Trion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 08:53 sambour wrote:Just thought I'd add that good mechanics are essential for good macro, so watch day9 #252 + 257: Day9 Daily #252Day9 Daily #257Especially focus on the 'tap' (he will drill this into your brain). Just do it. All the time. The way I understand it is mechanics is a means to macro is a means to an optimized build is a means to a strategy. If you are weak on any of the foundation your strategy will never play properly. I've wondered about the tap. I always have trouble withstanding new units just as the last ones finish, I always end up with idle time or things queued up. Problem is, as soon as I start exploiting MBS and put more then one rax in a ctrl group the tap does not work. Being a player who likes bio and gets a second barracks quite fast the tap seems nearly useless for unit production.
Could you maybe spread your hotkeys something like 4 for marine production, 5 for maurader, 6 for tank/thor/whatever? This way each control group has a uniform training time. I haven't studied how terrans set up their hotkeys so I'm no expert there. Maybe check some pro replays and see how they do it?
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Im confused by your numbers. How does the stim push come earlier than the concussive shell push when concussive shells are researched faster?
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On February 10 2011 08:19 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 07:19 Arisen wrote:
While all this information is accurate, and useful in the application of the purpose of this thread, it does little for the thread itself. The power in this exercise is seeing the power of its application. Doing the exact same thing as me he has 3x as many units at the same time is much more powerful in showing the efficacy of a macro oriented approach toward the game than a method of doing it and saying you'll have more units.
I encourage everyone to participate, with either a question or an example. I refuse to believe that the Team Liquid Community doesn't care enough to give back to it's newer members. Cheers everyone. I don't mind being a Bronze Guinea Pig. Here's a replay where at 7:00, I have: 50/59 food 25 SCVs (1 more on the way) 5 Marauders (2 more on the way) 9 Marines (2 more on the way) Concussive Completed Stim to complete at 8:24 EBay completed Orbital completed My opponent was at 40/43 at this point. Watching just this part of the replay, I see things that obviously can be improved. I supply blocked myself. I had a bit of a hiccup on creating the orbital, making and canceling SCVs a couple of times. I was basically executing a 3 Rax, 2 Techs, 1 Reactor, which would turn into an attack and expansion. I've only been playing Terran for a couple of days, so I was pretty much winging the build order after about when I make the Orbital. I also didn't scout. As for the results of this game, I lost mainly for 2 reasons. I was an idiot and suicided too many troops and 2, just lack of familiarity playing Terran. I've been playing Protoss until a few days ago. If you want to offer suggestions on other things I did wrong, I'll take them in, but I'm not asking for help, just contributing some input to the thread from a Bronze perspective. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137235-1v1-terran-lost-templeI'm the Red Terran named 'Random'.
2 Thoughts. There are 2 ways you can go with the 3 rax. Cut SCV all in, or extra SCV attack/expansion. You threw down an engie bay for no reason. IF you plan on getting ups, don't get the ebay until you're ready to upgrade.
I focused on the expansion version, as you said you wanted to have that. At 7 minutes
Food
You50 Me 49
Rauders
You5 Me 5
Rines
You9 me 5
Stim
You 50% Me 100%
Concussive
You 100% Me 25%
Upgrades
You 0/0 Me 1/0 or 0/1
SCV's
You 25 Me 28
At the same stage in the game, we were basically even, BUT I already had my 1 attack upgrade done. My version focused more on constant SCV's rather than a slightly earlier rax, and thus more rines. After the current round finished, I threw down my expo, around 7:25. My concussive shell/stim was about a minute ahead as well (concussive is much shorter an upgrade than stim,). IMO, your error was throwing down that ebay. If you don't need turrets early, or ups early, you could skip it in favor of faster rax or expo.
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On February 10 2011 09:11 Trion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 08:53 sambour wrote:Just thought I'd add that good mechanics are essential for good macro, so watch day9 #252 + 257: Day9 Daily #252Day9 Daily #257Especially focus on the 'tap' (he will drill this into your brain). Just do it. All the time. The way I understand it is mechanics is a means to macro is a means to an optimized build is a means to a strategy. If you are weak on any of the foundation your strategy will never play properly. I've wondered about the tap. I always have trouble withstanding new units just as the last ones finish, I always end up with idle time or things queued up. Problem is, as soon as I start exploiting MBS and put more then one rax in a ctrl group the tap does not work. Being a player who likes bio and gets a second barracks quite fast the tap seems nearly useless for unit production.
The tap is a very good idea if u are having trouble with building units right when then next one finnishes. Even if u only have barrackses u need to switch from command center to barrackses to see how the production is going. I do it subconsiously now whenever i find time to check ill do a quick check to see if i need to build more units.
When u have more than 1 barracks u can see which ones are producing. U should be able to estimate how long the units are from being done because u have to build them so frequently.
Also if ur about to go into a battle u might as well cue up all the production u can since u likely wont be building buildings intill after the battle.
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On February 10 2011 10:01 FuzzyLord wrote:
Im confused by your numbers. How does the stim push come earlier than the concussive shell push when concussive shells are researched faster?
Concussive shell 3 rax is stim and conc shell
Stim is just straight stim.
Stim is researched first.
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On February 10 2011 09:17 shimpoe wrote:
Mid diamond protoss
gateway gateway robo gateway style build
7:00 minutes.
I had 57 supply
1 immortal, 1 zealot, 5 sentry, 4 stalkers, rest in probes.
I was mostly chrono-boosting probes.
120 minerals / 12 vespene gas left over.
That's the same 3 gate robo I described in the OP. My own decently executed
@ 7:00
-33 probes
-Immortal due to pop out any second
-2 sentries
-2 zealots
-3 additional gateway units
-3 gateway units set to arrive in about 8 seconds.
Your build is a few seconds ahead of mine. Good Work. I don't play toss (I roll zerg), this was just something I did on the fly. Never settle though, always be looking to get that extra few minerals/seconds out of your build
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On February 10 2011 10:07 Arisen wrote:
2 Thoughts. There are 2 ways you can go with the 3 rax. Cut SCV all in, or extra SCV attack/expansion. You threw down an engie bay for no reason. IF you plan on getting ups, don't get the ebay until you're ready to upgrade.
...
At the same stage in the game, we were basically even, BUT I already had my 1 attack upgrade done. My version focused more on constant SCV's rather than a slightly earlier rax, and thus more rines. After the current round finished, I threw down my expo, around 7:25. My concussive shell/stim was about a minute ahead as well (concussive is much shorter an upgrade than stim,). IMO, your error was throwing down that ebay. If you don't need turrets early, or ups early, you could skip it in favor of faster rax or expo.
Honestly I'm not sure what my thoughts were about throwing down the Ebay. Probably because I'm used to making a forge about that time and actually getting an upgrade. I probably just forgot to get the upgrade or couldn't afford it, what with my suicide mission going on lol. This bit about doing Stim before Conc shell is good info. I don't have a lot of this Terran knowledge yet. I definitely would like to expo earlier, so the Ebay will probably end up being delayed for it. I'm certainly not looking for an all-in build, so I won't be cutting workers probably until Platinum lol.
I'm pretty sure if I had played that opponent with a few more games of Terran experience under my belt, I would have won. I was pretty well ahead and even still close after a few suicide attacks. /smackhand and I'm pretty sure just expanding and defending, basically as he was doing would have tilted the game in my favor. Anyways, I wasn't worried about that one game, but learning along the way.
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Hi guys, I thought I'd approach this from the protoss side and see how well I'm doing at the prescribed times versus some very hard AI. Both games I try to go gate-cyber-gate-gate-robo.
I'm a gold leaguer, these are my results:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187910.jpg)
6:20:
26 probes
Robo 50% complete
Warped in one round of units, gates on roughly 50% cooldown.
3 stalkers
2 sentries
1 zealot
At this point T had 1 marauder and 7 rines and was gearing up to do a thor push.
At 7:00:
28 probes
4 stalkers
3 sentries
2 zealots
took about another 15s to start an immortal, and I probably could have had the chance to squeeze out an extra round of warpgate units.
When the Thor push hits around 8:45 I have:
31 probes
3 zealots
1 immortal
8 stalkers
3 sentries
3 warpgates off cooldown
Despite not microing my immortal at all, I manage to hold off.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187911.jpg)
At 6:20:
23 probes
2 stalkers (+2)
1 zealot
1 sentry (+1)
Robo ~33% done
3 Warpgates just finished morphing and I add on 2 more stalkers and 1 sentry which all finish by 6:30.
At 7:00:
The terran attacks and I still have the same mix (+2 probes), but I FF the ramp and warp in another 2 stalkers and 1 sentry.
The terran hit with about the same amount of stuff that the OP predicted, but minus stim and concussive shells at 7:00, which makes me think that this would have been way harder to hold if properly executed, but then again I could also have had the 3 extra units earlier.
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On February 10 2011 10:56 Vod.kaholic wrote:Hi guys, I thought I'd approach this from the protoss side and see how well I'm doing at the prescribed times versus some very hard AI. Both games I try to go gate-cyber-gate-gate-robo. I'm a gold leaguer, these are my results: 6:20: 26 probes Robo 50% complete Warped in one round of units, gates on roughly 50% cooldown. 3 stalkers 2 sentries 1 zealot At this point T had 1 marauder and 7 rines and was gearing up to do a thor push. At 7:00: 28 probes 4 stalkers 3 sentries 2 zealots took about another 15s to start an immortal, and I probably could have had the chance to squeeze out an extra round of warpgate units. When the Thor push hits around 8:45 I have: 31 probes 3 zealots 1 immortal 8 stalkers 3 sentries 3 warpgates off cooldown Despite not microing my immortal at all, I manage to hold off. At 6:20: 23 probes 2 stalkers (+2) 1 zealot 1 sentry (+1) Robo ~33% done 3 Warpgates just finished morphing and I add on 2 more stalkers and 1 sentry which all finish by 6:30. At 7:00: The terran attacks and I still have the same mix (+2 probes), but I FF the ramp and warp in another 2 stalkers and 1 sentry. The terran hit with about the same amount of stuff that the OP predicted, but minus stim and concussive shells at 7:00, which makes me think that this would have been way harder to hold if properly executed, but then again I could also have had the 3 extra units earlier.
I'd reccomend against playing an actual opponent (except something like very easy AI that never attacks) The goal isn't to play vs an opponent. Rather, it's to focus on your own play to acknowledge and gap any holes in your macro. It's useless to pay attention to your opponents timings if our own aren't consistant right? Say I have a PvT build I'm working on. It's suboptimal to design a way to deal with a 4 gate when half the time I end up with 4 less units. Once our own play is refined we can deal with very specific timings and mold and shape our style until we have a reliable, tested build we can bust out at a moments notice that covers all facets of our opponents play. That is where true strategy is born.
That's why I'm encouraging everyone to spend some time refining their builds and find out if they can improve and start running like a well oiled machine.
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On February 10 2011 09:52 sambour wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 09:11 Trion wrote:On February 10 2011 08:53 sambour wrote:Just thought I'd add that good mechanics are essential for good macro, so watch day9 #252 + 257: Day9 Daily #252Day9 Daily #257Especially focus on the 'tap' (he will drill this into your brain). Just do it. All the time. The way I understand it is mechanics is a means to macro is a means to an optimized build is a means to a strategy. If you are weak on any of the foundation your strategy will never play properly. I've wondered about the tap. I always have trouble withstanding new units just as the last ones finish, I always end up with idle time or things queued up. Problem is, as soon as I start exploiting MBS and put more then one rax in a ctrl group the tap does not work. Being a player who likes bio and gets a second barracks quite fast the tap seems nearly useless for unit production. Could you maybe spread your hotkeys something like 4 for marine production, 5 for maurader, 6 for tank/thor/whatever? This way each control group has a uniform training time. I haven't studied how terrans set up their hotkeys so I'm no expert there. Maybe check some pro replays and see how they do it?
Yes. What you'd do is select a reactor barracks, and press control 4. Select every reactor rax and press shift 4, and then every reactor rax is 4. Do the simmilar thing with Tech lab rax for rauders, tech lab facts for tanks, reactor fact for hellions. Just arrange all tech labs on one hotkey, all reactors on the other for each structure type.
As to the guy asking about quing, it's considered bad because it's "hiding money" if you have 3 marines qued, you could unque all three and build a rax. This way your production capacity goes up. This way, if your money is low, it means you're actually spending it all.
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Just watched replays of my last two losses.
zvt: 14H, 14P, 14G: 37 food @ 7 minutes (26 drones)
zvp: 14P, 14G, 20H: 35 food @ 7 minutes (+/- 26 drones)
I'm highly-ranked gold.
My macro obviously has a lot of room for improvement. Now I have some benchmarks to shoot for. Thanks alot for starting this thread. It helped me learn something about my play. (For instance, I started tech structures before I needed them, slowing drone production; missed larva vomits of course; too much gas too soon.)
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Remember, what are your goals? All I've seen for 7 minutes in lings/drones/spines. What are your goals in each matchup? The food will go VERY diffent betwixt muta/ling and ling infestor, which are both really different from roach/hydra. Few more pieces of information please.
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ZvZ with a 15 hatch 15 pool opening.
@7 minutes 57/60 (32 drones)
@10minutes 108/108(51 drones)
@ 12:35 186/190 (59 drones)
Followed by engagement and the win.
Edit; 2-2 was finishing at time of engagement and this is off pure roach.
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On February 10 2011 12:05 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 10:56 Vod.kaholic wrote:Hi guys, I thought I'd approach this from the protoss side and see how well I'm doing at the prescribed times versus some very hard AI. Both games I try to go gate-cyber-gate-gate-robo. I'm a gold leaguer, these are my results: 6:20: 26 probes Robo 50% complete Warped in one round of units, gates on roughly 50% cooldown. 3 stalkers 2 sentries 1 zealot At this point T had 1 marauder and 7 rines and was gearing up to do a thor push. At 7:00: 28 probes 4 stalkers 3 sentries 2 zealots took about another 15s to start an immortal, and I probably could have had the chance to squeeze out an extra round of warpgate units. When the Thor push hits around 8:45 I have: 31 probes 3 zealots 1 immortal 8 stalkers 3 sentries 3 warpgates off cooldown Despite not microing my immortal at all, I manage to hold off. At 6:20: 23 probes 2 stalkers (+2) 1 zealot 1 sentry (+1) Robo ~33% done 3 Warpgates just finished morphing and I add on 2 more stalkers and 1 sentry which all finish by 6:30. At 7:00: The terran attacks and I still have the same mix (+2 probes), but I FF the ramp and warp in another 2 stalkers and 1 sentry. The terran hit with about the same amount of stuff that the OP predicted, but minus stim and concussive shells at 7:00, which makes me think that this would have been way harder to hold if properly executed, but then again I could also have had the 3 extra units earlier. I'd reccomend against playing an actual opponent (except something like very easy AI that never attacks) The goal isn't to play vs an opponent. Rather, it's to focus on your own play to acknowledge and gap any holes in your macro. It's useless to pay attention to your opponents timings if our own aren't consistant right? Say I have a PvT build I'm working on. It's suboptimal to design a way to deal with a 4 gate when half the time I end up with 4 less units. Once our own play is refined we can deal with very specific timings and mold and shape our style until we have a reliable, tested build we can bust out at a moments notice that covers all facets of our opponents play. That is where true strategy is born. That's why I'm encouraging everyone to spend some time refining their builds and find out if they can improve and start running like a well oiled machine.
I see what you mean, but I was not worried at all about what the computer was doing, I just wanted it there as a sort of test to see if my gate-cyber-gate-gate-robo thing could get out a decent amount of units in time to stop early pressure. In any case, I know now from watching those replays that I need to maintain constant probe production. There are times where I exclusively wait for chronoboost energy to make probes, and times where I needlessly cut probe production to get out some units.
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@7:00 gate gate robo gate (chrono probes)
57 supply
1 immortal
5 sentry
2 zealot
3 stalker
rest as probes
@7:00 gate gate robo gate (chrono probes)
57 supply
1 immortal
5 sentry
1 zealot
4 stalker
I seem to always be around this supply with each attempt. However I don't actually use this build in games. Not to make this about my PvT strategy, but I like 2 gate+robo and a quicker expansion, with an observer out.
----
So this is what I more generally use in PvT,
@7:00 gate gate robo (chrono probes)(fairly quick expansion)
55 supply
1 immortal
5 sentry
2 stalker
1 zealot
1 observer
rest as probes
natural expansion around 80%-85% complete
What is interesting to me is how little the nexus actually slows things down; considering it isn't complete yet, I haven't inflated my supply with probes or income. I suppose the extra production of the third gateway doesn't have as large as an influence at this point as I would have assumed because it's fairly delayed and hasn't gotten a lot of use yet.
I hope more people catch on and participate in this thread. It's pretty interesting comparing to yourself, but I'd love to see what some other (better) players come up with as benchmarks.
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I think you need to get some numbers for FE at 10 min mark. FE imo is good macro practice for gold/plat players like me who are fine off 1-base, but start having macro problems off 2 bases when income essentially increases by ard 50-100% by 10 min.
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This is a pretty interesting post. And it's true that a lot of lower level players don't realise what a big difference good macro execution makes. Once, I was helping a friend with terran and I said, "supply 10 rax 12 gas 13 OC 15". His response was, "yes, I do it that way". When I watched the replay, I saw that he pulled his SCV to build the rax at the choke so late, it was more like rax 13. Then there was things like supply-capped, etc.
If a high level player has the time to execute the same build order but just do it better, it would certainly open the eyes of a lot of players.
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On February 10 2011 14:07 Azzur wrote:
This is a pretty interesting post. And it's true that a lot of lower level players don't realise what a big difference good macro execution makes. Once, I was helping a friend with terran and I said, "supply 10 rax 12 gas 13 OC 15". His response was, "yes, I do it that way". When I watched the replay, I saw that he pulled his SCV to build the rax at the choke so late, it was more like rax 13. Then there was things like supply-capped, etc.
If a high level player has the time to execute the same build order but just do it better, it would certainly open the eyes of a lot of players.
It's pretty neat how when you build the structures exactly when you have the minerals at the proper time, and constantly make workers, things sync up very well. As soon as the barracks is finished, the Command Center is completing a worker and ready for OC. It's almost like Blizzard meant it to be that way lol. If I recall correctly, there are a couple timings for Protoss that fit like that as well.
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@Arisen-
In the zvp I was going for Siege's sling opening into roach/hydra. In addition to the workers I had 2 queens and the balance slings.
In the zvt I was going slings into blings. I had 2 queens, bnest, lair making, balance slings.
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3 gate expand
57/58
32 probes
7 zealots
4 stalkers
1 sentry
I had about 300 minerals saved up here for the nexus. I was really suprised how much difference perfect timing makes. I started out reaching 40-45 supply and after 45 min of practice I reached 57 supply. Huge difference. I didn't really pay attention to which units I produced though. The number might be a bit lower with a faster second gas and more sentries in there.
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I tried this too and here are my build and my units:
Build:
I did a 3 Gate into Expand adding a Robotics Facility asap after throwing down the Nexus.
So in detail:
9 Pylo
13 Gateway
14 Gas
17 Cybernetics Core (when Gateway finished)
*starting warp-tech instantly
when warp-tech about 50% done adding 2 further Gateways
when Gateways about 50% done adding second Gas
when warp-tech done adding my second Nexus (around 6:10)
adding Robotics facility asap after Nexus to get detection up
Which works out pretty stable for me although it's not as fast with units as the OP did. (e.g. Immortal)
(This is the build I choose to train my basics and get stable macro and learn upgrade timings etc.)
Units:
32 Probes
2 Zealot
5 Sentries
2 Warpgates ready (65 98 Minerals or one sentry left)
Robotics about 25-30% done
47/58 supply
+ Show Spoiler +before:
30 Probes
1 Zealot
2 Stalker
3 Sentries
3 Warpgates ready (should have build a pylon around 6:20 - 6:30)
Robotics about 25-30% done
42/42 supply
I spend my CB on Probes and warp-tech research and kept all my gates on cooldown.
Hope this may help you, although (or even because) I made mistakes, to see what you may improve.
Edit:
- unit count after some tries (old version in spoiler)
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On February 11 2011 01:26 sick_transit wrote:
@Arisen-
In the zvp I was going for Siege's sling opening into roach/hydra. In addition to the workers I had 2 queens and the balance slings.
In the zvt I was going slings into blings. I had 2 queens, bnest, lair making, balance slings.
ZvP Roach Hydra:
@7:00
50 supply
3 Hatches (2 completed and staurated, 3rd started @7:00
2 Queens
Lair & Roach warren slated to finish @ same time (7/8th's complete)
Metabolic Boost Complete
1 spine crawler
2 Gysers Coplete and harvesting
2 zerglings
45 Drones
5 Creep tumors
ZvT Sling/Bling (w/ muta's)
@7:00
50 Supply
3 2 Hatches
Lair Complete
2 Queens
4 Extractors
2 Zerglings
Metabolic Boost Complete
Baneling Nest Completed
1/8 on Centrifugal Hooks (bling speed)
45 Drones
4 Creep Tumors
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While I kind of understand the point of this post... I don't think you chose a good example at all. Clearly the "friend" is blatantly screwing up things VERY BADLY to have so few units at the 7 minute mark. How can he possibly think he is macroing good? Wouldn't him watching one replay of himself allow him to see how bad he is? To me, this just seems like a problem of the "friend" not knowing how to watch replays and judge his own play.
This thread has really turned into a discussion about how many units you can get on different early timings and that is all fine and dandy. I just think the emphasis should be on watching your own replays. Trying to judge your macro skill by looking at army numbers and game timings seems much less useful compared to simply knowing how to watch your own replay and see where you screwed up your macro.
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On February 11 2011 03:47 OnlineHero wrote:
3 gate expand
57/58
32 probes
7 zealots
4 stalkers
1 sentry
I had about 300 minerals saved up here for the nexus. I was really suprised how much difference perfect timing makes. I started out reaching 40-45 supply and after 45 min of practice I reached 57 supply. Huge difference. I didn't really pay attention to which units I produced though. The number might be a bit lower with a faster second gas and more sentries in there.
@7:00
58 Supply
6 Sentries
2 Stalkers
3 Zealots
36 Probes
2 Assimilators
Expo @ 29/100
3 Gates
1 Core
This can be smoother, I was sloppy w/ chronoboosts
If you want to expand behind 3 gates (usually v Z), you want to be really sentry heavy to save minerals, and early sentries bank energy for more FF's/GS's. To compensate, you need fast 2 Assimilators, I grabbed mine right after core. I ended @ 10 Minerals/ 94 Gas
Glad the post prompted you to get some more efficiency out of your build 
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On February 11 2011 06:46 skipdog172 wrote:
While I kind of understand the point of this post... I don't think you chose a good example at all. Clearly the "friend" is blatantly screwing up things VERY BADLY to have so few units at the 7 minute mark. How can he possibly think he is macroing good? Wouldn't him watching one replay of himself allow him to see how bad he is? To me, this just seems like a problem of the "friend" not knowing how to watch replays and judge his own play.
This thread has really turned into a discussion about how many units you can get on different early timings and that is all fine and dandy. I just think the emphasis should be on watching your own replays. Trying to judge your macro skill by looking at army numbers and game timings seems much less useful compared to simply knowing how to watch your own replay and see where you screwed up your macro.
The point is that lower level players think they're macroing well so put most of their practice time into other things. The point is to point out what a bit of practice in your macro and timings can do for your game. There are so many people who think at lower levels especially that when they lose to a lot of stuff early, it's because of "balance" when in reality, they could have had plenty of of units to deal with something, then they come on TL and make posts that claim imbalance, then more people start thinking that, and it becomes a big spiraling shitstorm. By posting some good examples of what you COULD have at a certain point in time, people will have a bench mark of looking at their replays.
If I poorly time some buildings, I could end up with fewer probes/units/structures/upgrades, etc, and never know without the context to put into it. My last post was a great example. A guy was trying to expand early, had allot of zealots, and was on track to put down his expo a bit after 7 minutes, but by grabbing a double gas early you pour more into sentries and as a result have free minerals to start your expo early. You might not think of that without some context of WHAT is possible, he's just seeing "I was constantly producing units and probes, so I can't refine any more. There's always something to learn from other players, which is why this post exists.
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On February 10 2011 13:21 VTreveNge wrote:
ZvZ with a 15 hatch 15 pool opening.
@7 minutes 57/60 (32 drones)
@10minutes 108/108(51 drones)
@ 12:35 186/190 (59 drones)
Followed by engagement and the win.
Edit; 2-2 was finishing at time of engagement and this is off pure roach.
@7 Minutes
52 Supply
5 Roaches
4 extractors (2 just started)
2 Evo Chambers (@75%, enough gas to start 1/1 as they complete)
Metabolic Boost Complete (zergling speed)
2 Zerglings
37 Drones
4 Creep Tumors
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Platinum -
Three Rax Stim:
@7:00
50 supply
8 Marauders
9 Marines
25 SCVs
Thats including the ones in production. Stim and CS have finished. Also got supply blocked twice T.T
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This is a wonderful thread, I was looking precisely for something like this. It's always easier to improve when you have concrete short term goals, like "have that many units at that minute".
Here's my nubish contribution. No league, single player only so far.
Protoss vs Random VH AI, Lost Temple, accidently chronoboosted at supply cap once (tired atm) and ordered a zealot first because it seemed like it's gonna do zerglings. Shortly after I realized it's gonna be roaches after all, so I went double gas, 3 gateways, expand after - build, I found it works good against that kind of AI opening.
7:00 I had:
45/50 food, 50 minerals, 118 gas
3 Gateways
26 probes, 1 zealot, 2 stalkers, 3 sentries.
already dead: a scouting probe; a stalker due to bad micro (tired, again) defending from roaches rush. Zealot is about to die too
On the way: Stalker in a few seconds, 2 more stalkers just started and immediately to be canceled due to warpgates research just finished.
A lot to improve to...
@7:00
58 Supply
6 Sentries
2 Stalkers
3 Zealots
36 Probes
2 Assimilators
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On February 11 2011 09:34 Sejanus wrote:
This is a wonderful thread, I was looking precisely for something like this. It's always easier to improve when you have concrete short term goals, like "have that many units at that minute".
Here's my nubish contribution. No league, single player only so far.
Protoss vs Random VH AI, Lost Temple, accidently chronoboosted at supply cap once (tired atm) and ordered a zealot first because it seemed like it's gonna do zerglings. Shortly after I realized it's gonna be roaches after all, so I went double gas, 3 gateways, expand after - build, I found it works good against that kind of AI opening.
7:00 I had:
45/50 food, 50 minerals, 118 gas
3 Gateways
26 probes, 1 zealot, 2 stalkers, 3 sentries.
already dead: a scouting probe; a zealot due to bad micro (tired, again) defending from roaches rush.
On the way: Stalker in a few seconds, 2 more stalkers just started and immediately to be canceled due to warpgates research just finished.
Cool, glad you like it. I already have 3 gate expand up, so you have a benchmark. Cheers
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On February 10 2011 07:48 `chain wrote:
Very true. However, I do believe that there is one problem with the TL community - the players in plat-master don't really understand how hard it is to get out of bronze once you've screwed up.
Hey chain I feel your pain, I was originally placed in bronze and worked my way up to diamond. Let me tell you this.. how much u think you play well is completly wrong. I thought I played awsome at bronze it wasent until i really applied what day9 talked about with macro and learned how to defend against cheese did I progress. Make sure to analize all your replays and look for what you did wrong. Once you start improving and wining a higher % of your games you will jump leagues. Also I had my wife play and tank oen of my accounts, it took like 20+ games to get it out of the hole but it happened. Just keep playing, analyzing and improving.
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Whenever I go any version of 3-gate robo I always seem to end up with a massive lull in unit production between 6:20 and 7:00, and my probe count doesn't pick up very much in that timeframe either. What sorts of things should I be doing to overcome that? Like, how should I time my gas and my gateway production before and after finishing warp research? How do you better people do it?
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Judging just from the example you have about day9 vs his friend.
If 2 people do the exact same build it should be fairly obvious to the non good macroing player that his macro is not doing good.
Say
10 depo 12 rax 13 gas 15 factory/depo ~20 starport but I realize the second my port is done that I have enough minerals to expand but then I look at the other person who did the exact same thing you will see maybe he doesn't have enough money to expand because he kept making scvs and marines while these other buildings were coming online.
In short a clear indicator that you are not macroing well is simply looking at your trust fund. Did I macro well this game? How much money do I have right now? 500minerals. Well I guess I didn't macro well.
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So can you post your build order or the replays to your version of things please. I'm struggling to get the same as you when doing the 3 rax stim + concussion. Then we can watch how you do things which would be helpful.
I usually have 53 food. 1 more marine. 1 less marauder. About 4 less scvs..
Cheers
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3-rax all-ins isnt a very good build at all vs P nowadays in my opinon, Due to FF's being so easily to defends narrow ramps. Might as well play a macro game and hope for the best
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Yeah but its nice for me to try it anyway. I bet its a fairly decent build on blistering sands.
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On February 11 2011 10:37 Mindflow wrote:
3-rax all-ins isnt a very good build at all vs P nowadays in my opinon, Due to FF's being so easily to defends narrow ramps. Might as well play a macro game and hope for the best
You're totally missing the point of the thread. Or trolling, I can't tell which.
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On February 11 2011 10:19 terranghost wrote:
Judging just from the example you have about day9 vs his friend.
If 2 people do the exact same build it should be fairly obvious to the non good macroing player that his macro is not doing good.
Say
10 depo 12 rax 13 gas 15 factory/depo ~20 starport but I realize the second my port is done that I have enough minerals to expand but then I look at the other person who did the exact same thing you will see maybe he doesn't have enough money to expand because he kept making scvs and marines while these other buildings were coming online.
In short a clear indicator that you are not macroing well is simply looking at your trust fund. Did I macro well this game? How much money do I have right now? 500minerals. Well I guess I didn't macro well.
That's misleading. If you're not doing a good job of timing your buildings, or forgetting a probe for a few seconds a few times, you can have really low money, but those little mistakes are the difference between you having what you have and what you have plus an expansion, or 1/1 ups, or having your gateways down earlier and a higher unit count which lets you hold a push.
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On February 11 2011 10:36 djdoodoo wrote:
So can you post your build order or the replays to your version of things please. I'm struggling to get the same as you when doing the 3 rax stim + concussion. Then we can watch how you do things which would be helpful.
I usually have 53 food. 1 more marine. 1 less marauder. About 4 less scvs..
Cheers
I can't find the replay I did to get the baseline, here's one I did RQ.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137673-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war
I didn't get the same numbers, either, but I did mess up a few times. As a result of sending an SCV earlier than I should have, I delayed my OC by a few seconds, and that first marine as well. Around 4:20 I accidentily qued an scv w/o realizing, and as a result had a much later 3rd rax. Around 6 minutes I forget an SCV, so I lose about 1 there, and I lose probably a half of an SCV @ 7:00, so in conjunction with the late OC I lost probably 2 SCV's due to inefficiency. I also accidentily que'd a marine in my tech lab rax delaying some marines and the next rauder, so I feel confident I lost at least 1 marauder due to that.
So I ended up with 58 food (up from original), 1 less marauder than in the original (explained above), equal marines (might have actually had 2 more this time w/o that blunder), 3 less SCV's. I lost 2 due to inefficiency, as stated, and I may have been counting the one in production in the original, not sure, as well as conc being delayed a few seconds.
3 pretty small errors left me (possibly) 3 units short and 3 SCV's short of what I could have, but yet I was at 45 min 37 gas when that example was done. This is a good example of why someone can think they're macroing excellent, but yet not be, really.
Hope that helped, sorry I didn't go through and do it again untill I got it dead on, but bones is on, and I'm lazy.
Peace.
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The idea is if you have 2 people doing the same build order
but one person has high money and the other doesn't
then obviously one person is not macroing
Part of macroing is building structures so you can spend you money anyway.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 11 2011 11:52 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 10:36 djdoodoo wrote:
So can you post your build order or the replays to your version of things please. I'm struggling to get the same as you when doing the 3 rax stim + concussion. Then we can watch how you do things which would be helpful.
I usually have 53 food. 1 more marine. 1 less marauder. About 4 less scvs..
Cheers I can't find the replay I did to get the baseline, here's one I did RQ. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137673-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-warI didn't get the same numbers, either, but I did mess up a few times. As a result of sending an SCV earlier than I should have, I delayed my OC by a few seconds, and that first marine as well. Around 4:20 I accidentily qued an scv w/o realizing, and as a result had a much later 3rd rax. Around 6 minutes I forget an SCV, so I lose about 1 there, and I lose probably a half of an SCV @ 7:00, so in conjunction with the late OC I lost probably 2 SCV's due to inefficiency. I also accidentily que'd a marine in my tech lab rax delaying some marines and the next rauder, so I feel confident I lost at least 1 marauder due to that. So I ended up with 58 food (up from original), 1 less marauder than in the original (explained above), equal marines (might have actually had 2 more this time w/o that blunder), 3 less SCV's. I lost 2 due to inefficiency, as stated, and I may have been counting the one in production in the original, not sure, as well as conc being delayed a few seconds. 3 pretty small errors left me (possibly) 3 units short and 3 SCV's short of what I could have, but yet I was at 45 min 37 gas when that example was done. This is a good example of why someone can think they're macroing excellent, but yet not be, really. Hope that helped, sorry I didn't go through and do it again untill I got it dead on, but bones is on, and I'm lazy. Peace.
tried this build a few times and got
56 supply
25 scvs
8 marauders (with 1 80% done)
9 marines (with 1 99% done)
at the 7:00 minute mark. Could've squeezed in a few more scvs but I can't afford to produce scvs and build from all 3 rax without getting supply blocked so I cut a little bit. LaLush recently posted his macro thread where he measures the mineral income per # of workers and I think around 19 is where you start to notice the diminishing returns. I had 21 mining so that's probably a good area to stop at and just throw down my nat cc while I'm trading units.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-188173.jpg)
I think it's also interesting to note that the first time I tried this build, I had a slightly bigger army (8 marauder 10 rine) but 4 less workers. The optimal 3 rax build is probably somewhere in between (23-24 scvs) as I had to cut my army size slightly in order to make those 25 scvs.
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On February 11 2011 12:22 terranghost wrote:
The idea is if you have 2 people doing the same build order
but one person has high money and the other doesn't
then obviously one person is not macroing
Part of macroing is building structures so you can spend you money anyway.
Obviously, if one persons money is really high, then yes, they need to improve, but I think you don't really understand this...
If you have low money, it doesn't mean you have can't improve your macro allot. Look at the replay I just posted. My money was pretty damn low the entire game, but you know what? I could have had 3 more units and 2 more SCV's just by doing 2 or 3 things a tiny bit different. That's can be a big fucking deal. That could mean the difference between you breaking your opponent, and just taking a ton of damage. That can mean the difference between you barely holding a push and losing 15 SCV's. Also take the 3 gate expand example for a minute. Just by changing up one thing meant the difference in me having more stuff and an expansion a minute earlier, even though we had "low money" each time.
There's more to your macro than just your money being low. Yes, money being high is the biggest indicator. Yes, it's the easiest fix. No, that's not all you need for having good macro. I can que 4-5 units as a terran and have 0 money, but those 5 qued units aren't helping me at all, and I could have planted an expo with that wasted money. If you planted every gateway you had at 100 minerals (pretty low money) you could have probably gotten maxed like a minute and a half faster.
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On February 11 2011 12:56 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 11:52 Arisen wrote:On February 11 2011 10:36 djdoodoo wrote:
So can you post your build order or the replays to your version of things please. I'm struggling to get the same as you when doing the 3 rax stim + concussion. Then we can watch how you do things which would be helpful.
I usually have 53 food. 1 more marine. 1 less marauder. About 4 less scvs..
Cheers I can't find the replay I did to get the baseline, here's one I did RQ. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137673-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-warI didn't get the same numbers, either, but I did mess up a few times. As a result of sending an SCV earlier than I should have, I delayed my OC by a few seconds, and that first marine as well. Around 4:20 I accidentily qued an scv w/o realizing, and as a result had a much later 3rd rax. Around 6 minutes I forget an SCV, so I lose about 1 there, and I lose probably a half of an SCV @ 7:00, so in conjunction with the late OC I lost probably 2 SCV's due to inefficiency. I also accidentily que'd a marine in my tech lab rax delaying some marines and the next rauder, so I feel confident I lost at least 1 marauder due to that. So I ended up with 58 food (up from original), 1 less marauder than in the original (explained above), equal marines (might have actually had 2 more this time w/o that blunder), 3 less SCV's. I lost 2 due to inefficiency, as stated, and I may have been counting the one in production in the original, not sure, as well as conc being delayed a few seconds. 3 pretty small errors left me (possibly) 3 units short and 3 SCV's short of what I could have, but yet I was at 45 min 37 gas when that example was done. This is a good example of why someone can think they're macroing excellent, but yet not be, really. Hope that helped, sorry I didn't go through and do it again untill I got it dead on, but bones is on, and I'm lazy. Peace. tried this build a few times and got 56 supply 25 scvs 8 marauders (with 1 80% done) 9 marines (with 1 99% done) at the 7:00 minute mark. Could've squeezed in a few more scvs but I can't afford to produce scvs and build from all 3 rax without getting supply blocked so I cut a little bit. LaLush recently posted his macro thread where he measures the mineral income per # of workers and I think around 19 is where you start to notice the diminishing returns. I had 21 mining so that's probably a good area to stop at and just throw down my nat cc while I'm trading units. I think it's also interesting to note that the first time I tried this build, I had a slightly bigger army (8 marauder 10 rine) but 4 less workers. The optimal 3 rax build is probably somewhere in between (23-24 scvs) as I had to cut my army size slightly in order to make those 25 scvs.
Cool idea, cutting SCV's to have an optimal push while having maximum mining and getting your CC down. Posted this as SCV cut 3 rax. Cheers.
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On February 10 2011 05:26 Kaitlin wrote:
I'm not ingame, but I know as a Bronze protoss, I'm generally in mid-40's food by 7:00, which seems to exceed most other bronzes that I have checked. As Terran, lately, I've been at 50-52 unless I screw up, which I haven't seen anyone in bronze compare with yet. Oh, and that includes upgrades like Stim and Concussive.
Honestly, if you have so much better macro than other bronze players, why are you in bronze and not plat or diamond?
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On February 11 2011 13:20 SupastaR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 05:26 Kaitlin wrote:
I'm not ingame, but I know as a Bronze protoss, I'm generally in mid-40's food by 7:00, which seems to exceed most other bronzes that I have checked. As Terran, lately, I've been at 50-52 unless I screw up, which I haven't seen anyone in bronze compare with yet. Oh, and that includes upgrades like Stim and Concussive. Honestly, if you have so much better macro than other bronze players, why are you in bronze and not plat or diamond?
If you don't have something constructive to say go troll somewhere else please.
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Great thread, despite so many people completely missing the point of it. Low diamond player who hasn't played since the last patch, and your thread inspired me to get back out there onto the ladder.
Thanks, Arisen.
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For the 3rax Stim timing attack you might want to mention that you didn't get an orbital command because I just did a test and with orbital command tops you can get in 7 minutes is 28 on 1 base.
7:00
54 food
31 SCV's
8 Marauders 7 Marines
Concussive finishes at 7 minutes, stim already done
This is without an orbital command.
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Is there any chance whoever got to 58 supply with the 3 Gate sentry expand upload their build order? I have been using one and I searched and cant find any more, so I want to check if I'm using an inefficient build or if im merely just not perfecting the efficient build I have, since I havent been able to get over 51 supply.
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On February 11 2011 14:38 djdoodoo wrote:
For the 3rax Stim timing attack you might want to mention that you didn't get an orbital command because I just did a test and with orbital command tops you can get in 7 minutes is 28 on 1 base.
7:00
54 food
31 SCV's
8 Marauders 7 Marines
Concussive finishes at 7 minutes, stim already done
This is without an orbital command.
I did get an orbital command? I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your post, my apologies.
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On February 11 2011 14:44 Ryder. wrote:
Is there any chance whoever got to 58 supply with the 3 Gate sentry expand upload their build order? I have been using one and I searched and cant find any more, so I want to check if I'm using an inefficient build or if im merely just not perfecting the efficient build I have, since I havent been able to get over 51 supply.
That was me, I didn't use a build order, as I dont use this because I don't play toss. I just did the standard 13 gate, 14 gas, core as soon as gate is done, got a second gas as I was putting up the core, and made constant chronoboosted probes, as well as placing my gates as soon as possible, making primarily sentries, making zealots when I didn't have the gas.
I did it a few times to get a sense of when I could place my gates so that I didn't interrupt unit production while being as fast as possible.
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On February 11 2011 09:58 Vod.kaholic wrote:
Whenever I go any version of 3-gate robo I always seem to end up with a massive lull in unit production between 6:20 and 7:00, and my probe count doesn't pick up very much in that timeframe either. What sorts of things should I be doing to overcome that? Like, how should I time my gas and my gateway production before and after finishing warp research? How do you better people do it?
The first question is: do you really want to 3 gate robo? You cannot realistically make use of 3 gates, a robo, make probes, use chrono boost, etc. while doing anything else. So basically you're either making 3 gates just in case because you need it to hold vs particular timing attacks, or you plan to go kill them with the extra gate in particular situations.
Here's a more or less optimal 2 gate robo. There's really no way you could improve upon it without sacrificing somewhere else. Without sacrificing early game safety (still requires a great deal of micro to beat proxy rax shenanigans, but certainly doable):
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=188188
3 gate robo. Pretty much rapes 2 rax expand on close rush distances, since their econ won't kick in until they are dead. (less refined, I haven't really done this build recently, but notice how the 3 gates finish when warp gate finishes):
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=188189
There's really no point in continuing probes past 22 if you're doing something as all-in as this. Of course you could just add the 3rd gate and make a nexus or something like the first replay, if you feel like that's better.
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On February 11 2011 14:47 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 14:38 djdoodoo wrote:
For the 3rax Stim timing attack you might want to mention that you didn't get an orbital command because I just did a test and with orbital command tops you can get in 7 minutes is 28 on 1 base.
7:00
54 food
31 SCV's
8 Marauders 7 Marines
Concussive finishes at 7 minutes, stim already done
This is without an orbital command. I did get an orbital command? I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your post, my apologies.
I think he's saying "it's physically impossible to have 31 SCVs and an OC at 7:00" . We can argue about it, or we can do the math ...
OC morph takes 35 seconds.
7 mins * 60 secs/min - 35 = 385 seconds worth of scv production
385 secs / 17 sec/scv = 22.6 scvs produced
22 + initial 6 scvs = 28 scvs at 7:00, with #29 halfway done.
Eeryck does have an earlier attempt at this sort of thread, which really helps to explain all of the "little things" that can go wrong with early game macro.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=182518
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Is this 7 minutes real-time, or 7 minutes in-game?
Gold Zerg here, going 14 gas 14 pool, only 36 supply @ 7 minutes in game.
http://www.mediafire.com/?9agvp81cndb8puv
I'm bad, but close to double my food count? wtf?
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On February 10 2011 13:58 shimpoe wrote:
@7:00 gate gate robo gate (chrono probes)
57 supply
1 immortal
5 sentry
2 zealot
3 stalker
rest as probes
@7:00 gate gate robo gate (chrono probes)
57 supply
1 immortal
5 sentry
1 zealot
4 stalker
I seem to always be around this supply with each attempt. However I don't actually use this build in games. Not to make this about my PvT strategy, but I like 2 gate+robo and a quicker expansion, with an observer out.
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So this is what I more generally use in PvT,
@7:00 gate gate robo (chrono probes)(fairly quick expansion)
55 supply
1 immortal
5 sentry
2 stalker
1 zealot
1 observer
rest as probes
natural expansion around 80%-85% complete
What is interesting to me is how little the nexus actually slows things down; considering it isn't complete yet, I haven't inflated my supply with probes or income. I suppose the extra production of the third gateway doesn't have as large as an influence at this point as I would have assumed because it's fairly delayed and hasn't gotten a lot of use yet.
I hope more people catch on and participate in this thread. It's pretty interesting comparing to yourself, but I'd love to see what some other (better) players come up with as benchmarks.
Err, I'd love to see these replays.
I don't think that the numbers you post are possible unless you're not sending a scouting probe and you're microing your probes to be as efficient as possible (pairing on the near patches, and so on). You're basically 10 supply ahead of 5 different variations of 2/3 gate robo I've tested, which are all between 46 and 50 supply at 7:00.
I already uploaded 2 of them responding to another guy. Here's another variation, where you get warp gates quite a bit faster to put some pressure on the terran while expanding.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=188192
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On February 11 2011 15:12 ZeroTalent wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 14:47 Arisen wrote:On February 11 2011 14:38 djdoodoo wrote:
For the 3rax Stim timing attack you might want to mention that you didn't get an orbital command because I just did a test and with orbital command tops you can get in 7 minutes is 28 on 1 base.
7:00
54 food
31 SCV's
8 Marauders 7 Marines
Concussive finishes at 7 minutes, stim already done
This is without an orbital command. I did get an orbital command? I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your post, my apologies. I think he's saying "it's physically impossible to have 31 SCVs and an OC at 7:00" . We can argue about it, or we can do the math ... OC morph takes 35 seconds. 7 mins * 60 secs/min - 35 = 385 seconds worth of scv production 385 secs / 17 sec/scv = 22.6 scvs produced 22 + initial 6 scvs = 28 scvs at 7:00, with #29 halfway done. Eeryck does have an earlier attempt at this sort of thread, which really helps to explain all of the "little things" that can go wrong with early game macro. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=182518
I might have been a bit over 7 minutes when I paused it. I'll change the numbers, thanks for pointing this out.
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Stim/Concuss 7:00 min (Stim finshes at 7:01)
58 Food <-- (In game food)
27 SCVs
8 Maruaders
8 Marines
&
(2 Maruaders in production ~15% done)
(2 Marines in production ~ 25% done)
(1 SCV 60% done)
Silver rank 10
Question: Are we posting our "in game" food or food minus what is building?
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On February 11 2011 15:37 JunTao wrote:
Stim/Concuss 7:00 min (Stim finshes at 7:01)
58 Food <-- (In game food)
27 SCVs
8 Maruaders
8 Marines
&
(2 Maruaders in production ~15% done)
(2 Marines in production ~ 25% done)
(1 SCV 60% done)
Silver rank 10
Question: Are we posting our "in game" food or food minus what is building?
In game
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On February 11 2011 15:17 Obscura.304 wrote:Is this 7 minutes real-time, or 7 minutes in-game? Gold Zerg here, going 14 gas 14 pool, only 36 supply @ 7 minutes in game. http://www.mediafire.com/?9agvp81cndb8puvI'm bad, but close to double my food count? wtf?
In game. I did something slightly different from you, I did a 14 pool, 16 hatch, gas @ 21, as that's a pretty popular build atm, accomplishes the same thing as your build while remaining safe and getting a faster second hatch. One problem you had real bad is you just let larvae chill out when you've got the money to build drones. I'm constantly just spamming 4s and the second I see a larvae, I make a drone. The only time you should ever let a larvae sit is if you have a reason not to spend it or if you're broke. You can't be late early game, as each drone mining gives you extra minerals to make more drones. Also, by letting that sit, you're killing a potential larvae (larvae won't spawn from your hatches if you have 3 already on that hatch), so you're ending up having less larvae. Zergs economy is really fragile, you need to be swift with those drones. I can upload a replay if you want. You're really late with the second hatches inject as well, your aim should be to keep your queens energy @ >28 or so.
I can upload a replay if you like.
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Could someone link me to the builds being used? Every single 3 gate robo build I've seen discussed, or on liquipedia, seems to go gate robo gate gate. As an example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=156752
The point seems to be that you need to get an observer out asap so you can scout and decide what to do from there. It's an econ build that just lets you expand pretty much when you obs scout.
So, what is this gate gate robo gate or gate gate gate robo? Is this a more pressure oriented build?
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On February 11 2011 16:39 Kier wrote:Could someone link me to the builds being used? Every single 3 gate robo build I've seen discussed, or on liquipedia, seems to go gate robo gate gate. As an example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=156752The point seems to be that you need to get an observer out asap so you can scout and decide what to do from there. It's an econ build that just lets you expand pretty much when you obs scout. So, what is this gate gate robo gate or gate gate gate robo? Is this a more pressure oriented build?
It's all what you like to do. IMO a 3 gate robo is only used when you're either A) Afraid of a timing attack, as this build is good at getting a solid defense fast, or B) When you're trying for a timing attack as well (2 Collosus w/ range timing attack, immo timing attack) while expanding behind that. It takes a long time to bank enough money to expand. The gate/robo timings are all attuned to what you want to do. If you scout 2 rax, theres no way in hell you'll go gate-robo, as you'll just have an observer that gets to have a bunch of marines/SCV's killing you. If you don't, but are going for a timing attack, your timings will be dictated by weather you want more immo's or more gateway units. Do you want to be the safest? Gate/robo would be best. Do you want to expand ASAP? Probably want a later robo so you can make more sentries. I believe in the one I did, I used Gate-Robo-Gate, there is one posted as Gate-Gate Robo.
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On February 11 2011 16:09 Arisen wrote:In game. I did something slightly different from you, I did a 14 pool, 16 hatch, gas @ 21, as that's a pretty popular build atm, accomplishes the same thing as your build while remaining safe and getting a faster second hatch. One problem you had real bad is you just let larvae chill out when you've got the money to build drones. I'm constantly just spamming 4s and the second I see a larvae, I make a drone. The only time you should ever let a larvae sit is if you have a reason not to spend it or if you're broke. You can't be late early game, as each drone mining gives you extra minerals to make more drones. Also, by letting that sit, you're killing a potential larvae (larvae won't spawn from your hatches if you have 3 already on that hatch), so you're ending up having less larvae. Zergs economy is really fragile, you need to be swift with those drones. I can upload a replay if you want. You're really late with the second hatches inject as well, your aim should be to keep your queens energy @ >28 or so. I can upload a replay if you like.
Ah, ok- the the 14 pool, 15 hatch, 21 gas does give much more food at the 7 minute mark, but its lair is super-late, unless you skip ling speed (not safe).
I watched a replay or Idra doing the build I used, and he was at 46 food at the 7 minute mark. However, since his last round of stuff was roaches instead of drones (hellions were incoming), it was kinda "maximized" for exactly that point; had he been droning, it would have been more like 41-42 (drones are only 1 supply vs. 2 for roaches).
EDIT- Also, the larvae chill period after the 15 overlord is intentional. You need it to be able to get the queen, first 4 lings, and ling speed on time.
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On February 11 2011 17:43 Obscura.304 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 16:09 Arisen wrote:On February 11 2011 15:17 Obscura.304 wrote:Is this 7 minutes real-time, or 7 minutes in-game? Gold Zerg here, going 14 gas 14 pool, only 36 supply @ 7 minutes in game. http://www.mediafire.com/?9agvp81cndb8puvI'm bad, but close to double my food count? wtf? In game. I did something slightly different from you, I did a 14 pool, 16 hatch, gas @ 21, as that's a pretty popular build atm, accomplishes the same thing as your build while remaining safe and getting a faster second hatch. One problem you had real bad is you just let larvae chill out when you've got the money to build drones. I'm constantly just spamming 4s and the second I see a larvae, I make a drone. The only time you should ever let a larvae sit is if you have a reason not to spend it or if you're broke. You can't be late early game, as each drone mining gives you extra minerals to make more drones. Also, by letting that sit, you're killing a potential larvae (larvae won't spawn from your hatches if you have 3 already on that hatch), so you're ending up having less larvae. Zergs economy is really fragile, you need to be swift with those drones. I can upload a replay if you want. You're really late with the second hatches inject as well, your aim should be to keep your queens energy @ >28 or so. I can upload a replay if you like. Ah, ok- the the 14 pool, 15 hatch, 21 gas does give much more food at the 7 minute mark, but its lair is super-late, unless you skip ling speed (not safe).
Not at all true. You get ling speed on 1 gas, add a second and lair w/ the second hundred gas. This build can deal with any type of gate timings well, as well as fast DT's, as well as stargate builds. There's no reason to rush for your lair for safety. If you mess up your lair timings, you might die to DT rushes, but it deals with everything just fine
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On February 11 2011 18:02 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 17:43 Obscura.304 wrote:On February 11 2011 16:09 Arisen wrote:On February 11 2011 15:17 Obscura.304 wrote:Is this 7 minutes real-time, or 7 minutes in-game? Gold Zerg here, going 14 gas 14 pool, only 36 supply @ 7 minutes in game. http://www.mediafire.com/?9agvp81cndb8puvI'm bad, but close to double my food count? wtf? In game. I did something slightly different from you, I did a 14 pool, 16 hatch, gas @ 21, as that's a pretty popular build atm, accomplishes the same thing as your build while remaining safe and getting a faster second hatch. One problem you had real bad is you just let larvae chill out when you've got the money to build drones. I'm constantly just spamming 4s and the second I see a larvae, I make a drone. The only time you should ever let a larvae sit is if you have a reason not to spend it or if you're broke. You can't be late early game, as each drone mining gives you extra minerals to make more drones. Also, by letting that sit, you're killing a potential larvae (larvae won't spawn from your hatches if you have 3 already on that hatch), so you're ending up having less larvae. Zergs economy is really fragile, you need to be swift with those drones. I can upload a replay if you want. You're really late with the second hatches inject as well, your aim should be to keep your queens energy @ >28 or so. I can upload a replay if you like. Ah, ok- the the 14 pool, 15 hatch, 21 gas does give much more food at the 7 minute mark, but its lair is super-late, unless you skip ling speed (not safe). Not at all true. You get ling speed on 1 gas, add a second and lair w/ the second hundred gas. This build can deal with any type of gate timings well, as well as fast DT's, as well as stargate builds. There's no reason to rush for your lair for safety. If you mess up your lair timings, you might die to DT rushes, but it deals with everything just fine
Could you post the replay? I can't imagine that build getting a lair at a roughly normal timing (finishing a bit after 7 minutes).
Also, according to this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170096
Supply at 7 minutes for a gas-pool build should be 44, + a spinecrawler (37 drones + 2 queens + 6 lings).
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This thread rocks. This will help me know what to shoot in my builds and know how far off I am right now when I analyze my replays. Thanks!
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Thanks for the replays Time/PJA. :D
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On February 11 2011 18:11 Obscura.304 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 18:02 Arisen wrote:On February 11 2011 17:43 Obscura.304 wrote:On February 11 2011 16:09 Arisen wrote:On February 11 2011 15:17 Obscura.304 wrote:Is this 7 minutes real-time, or 7 minutes in-game? Gold Zerg here, going 14 gas 14 pool, only 36 supply @ 7 minutes in game. http://www.mediafire.com/?9agvp81cndb8puvI'm bad, but close to double my food count? wtf? In game. I did something slightly different from you, I did a 14 pool, 16 hatch, gas @ 21, as that's a pretty popular build atm, accomplishes the same thing as your build while remaining safe and getting a faster second hatch. One problem you had real bad is you just let larvae chill out when you've got the money to build drones. I'm constantly just spamming 4s and the second I see a larvae, I make a drone. The only time you should ever let a larvae sit is if you have a reason not to spend it or if you're broke. You can't be late early game, as each drone mining gives you extra minerals to make more drones. Also, by letting that sit, you're killing a potential larvae (larvae won't spawn from your hatches if you have 3 already on that hatch), so you're ending up having less larvae. Zergs economy is really fragile, you need to be swift with those drones. I can upload a replay if you want. You're really late with the second hatches inject as well, your aim should be to keep your queens energy @ >28 or so. I can upload a replay if you like. Ah, ok- the the 14 pool, 15 hatch, 21 gas does give much more food at the 7 minute mark, but its lair is super-late, unless you skip ling speed (not safe). Not at all true. You get ling speed on 1 gas, add a second and lair w/ the second hundred gas. This build can deal with any type of gate timings well, as well as fast DT's, as well as stargate builds. There's no reason to rush for your lair for safety. If you mess up your lair timings, you might die to DT rushes, but it deals with everything just fine Could you post the replay? I can't imagine that build getting a lair at a roughly normal timing (finishing a bit after 7 minutes). Also, according to this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170096Supply at 7 minutes for a gas-pool build should be 44, + a spinecrawler (37 drones + 2 queens + 6 lings).
I'll get around to a rep of 14/16, but...
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137839-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
44 supply is right on. I played pretty sloppy, as I'm watching scrubs while I'm doing it. But, yeah, @ 7 minutes you're about 1-2 seconds from jumping up to something like 54ish supply with roach speed coming started (if you're not being 1-2 seconds late with your inject and building drones.
I only build 2 lings until I need more, but that's just my style.
**Also note, the 14/16 build is featured on 12 weeks with the pros on ZvP with machine on Mr. Bitter's bliptv, if you want a feel of what it looks like.
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The old 3Rax build is bronze proof, and I would even say, it is Gold/Mid-Plat proof. However, 1Rax Expand the is the build to use.
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On February 11 2011 19:15 chuigo wrote:
The old 3Rax build is bronze proof, and I would even say, it is Gold/Mid-Plat proof. However, 1Rax Expand the is the build to use.
Not the point of the thread. Please keep discussions On Topic.
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At 7 minute I have only drones
Zerg: loulz.
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On February 11 2011 19:48 WhiteDog wrote:At 7 minute I have only drones Zerg: loulz.
more efficient to get 1-2 pairs of zerglings, 1 to post outside his base to tell you when you need to build units, 1-2 to control towers. You risk losing to any small poke w/100% drones without a spotter, and all drones. In terms of a scouter, larvae wise, 1 pair of lings gives more vision than 1 drone
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So the topic of this thread is so you think you can macro?
It has devolved into a 7-minute optimization of getting units out with people even cutting workers in favor of more units (Not a good macro concept at the low levels).
Good macro and being able to macro goes well beyond 7-minutes. If you try and benchmark anything after 7-minutes there is just simply too much variations in build orders and unit compositions that it is truly worth while.
The ability to macro off a FE build once you hit full saturation is a big leap from a strong 1-base push. Your income is coming twice as fast. Then if you get a reasonably timed 3rd you will have 3 mining bases for a period, being able to have enough production to keep that money spent is a horse of a different color when compared to one basing.
So while an initial eye opening and benchmarking is useful, players should quickly move beyond this mentality. Also, players should not consider their macro good if they can match any of these timings/ unit counts.
This exercise should be considered little more than a mechanics check for one-basing. If you want to consider how well you are macroing a better exercise would be something like this:
Do a FE build
Get a third at 11-12 minutes
Stop at 200/200
Watch the replay 1 time looking at the CC/Nexus/hatch.
-note every time you miss a worker, for how long and why. (fix these problems)
Watch a second time looking at the CC/Nexus/hatch.
-note every time you miss your macro mechanic, for how long and why (fix it)
Watch a third time looking only when you get supply blocked
-not how long and why (fix it)
Watch a fourth time looking at your production facility or production tab
-note when you are not producing from any structure you have made, consider if you needed that structure that early or if you were hiding minerals by building it (fix it)
Watch the replay a fifth time looking at your money
-note every time your minerals goes over 500 (fix it only if it is not caused by items 1-4) by building more producing structures
Watch the replay a sixth time in first person view
-note what screens you are looking at and why. Macro while looking at your army or scout, check that you are constantly tapping, bounce quickly to your base to build supply or add production.
Be very very hard on yourself because even the smallest mistakes cost you units. While this 7-minute benchmark demonstrates this well, it also fails in the real game.
Consider if you get in the mentality that you should have x units at y time in game. Then you get harassed or some early pressure. Then at 7-minutes you have less units and you think "OMG I am behind" this is just a bad place to get to.
So while this is a noble benchmarking exercise, it should only be considered the first baby step to good macro.
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On February 12 2011 00:23 Eeryck wrote:
So the topic of this thread is so you think you can macro?
It has devolved into a 7-minute optimization of getting units out with people even cutting workers in favor of more units (Not a good macro concept at the low levels).
Good macro and being able to macro goes well beyond 7-minutes. If you try and benchmark anything after 7-minutes there is just simply too much variations in build orders and unit compositions that it is truly worth while.
The ability to macro off a FE build once you hit full saturation is a big leap from a strong 1-base push. Your income is coming twice as fast. Then if you get a reasonably timed 3rd you will have 3 mining bases for a period, being able to have enough production to keep that money spent is a horse of a different color when compared to one basing.
So while an initial eye opening and benchmarking is useful, players should quickly move beyond this mentality. Also, players should not consider their macro good if they can match any of these timings/ unit counts.
This exercise should be considered little more than a mechanics check for one-basing. If you want to consider how well you are macroing a better exercise would be something like this:
Do a FE build
Get a third at 11-12 minutes
Stop at 200/200
Watch the replay 1 time looking at the CC/Nexus/hatch.
-note every time you miss a worker, for how long and why. (fix these problems)
Watch a second time looking at the CC/Nexus/hatch.
-note every time you miss your macro mechanic, for how long and why (fix it)
Watch a third time looking only when you get supply blocked
-not how long and why (fix it)
Watch a fourth time looking at your production facility or production tab
-note when you are not producing from any structure you have made, consider if you needed that structure that early or if you were hiding minerals by building it (fix it)
Watch the replay a fifth time looking at your money
-note every time your minerals goes over 500 (fix it only if it is not caused by items 1-4) by building more producing structures
Watch the replay a sixth time in first person view
-note what screens you are looking at and why. Macro while looking at your army or scout, check that you are constantly tapping, bounce quickly to your base to build supply or add production.
Be very very hard on yourself because even the smallest mistakes cost you units. While this 7-minute benchmark demonstrates this well, it also fails in the real game.
Consider if you get in the mentality that you should have x units at y time in game. Then you get harassed or some early pressure. Then at 7-minutes you have less units and you think "OMG I am behind" this is just a bad place to get to.
So while this is a noble benchmarking exercise, it should only be considered the first baby step to good macro.
I mean if you're going to have this attitude, why stop there? Any terrible player can max out in 11 minutes without having pressure applied to them. You won't really have good macro until you can max out on 3 bases while being banshee and medivac harassed by SeleCT.
I'm pretty sure that players who are not in diamond don't even understand the fundamentals of how to fix their early game macro. Any time I watch a player who is in diamond, they get warp gate late, they rarely ever change their gates over right when it finishes, they cut the equivalent of 3-5 probes by 7 minutes, etc. etc. So saying that this stuff isn't helpful for people who are in platinum or gold seems incorrect to me.
EDIT: I'd still like to see replays of people hitting 58 supply in 7 minutes with scouting and with any remotely reasonable build order. (i.e. not 3 rax all-in to the max) I'm practically never behind by 10 food this early in the game, yet the results people are posting would say that I should be.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Eeryck the build is a timing push. Whether I have 25 or 30 scvs, it makes no difference if my income is the same.
Yes I do agree that these 7 minute replays are not the full picture to good macro. For me, this thread simply serves as an eye opener to the lower league players to see that they have a lot less stuff compared to a master league player. I'd also argue that being able to match the production of a good player in the first 7 minutes is a great achievement as the player will know that their weaknesses lie elsewhere. They can be confident that if they lost a game, its definitely not due to their initial build order.
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Awesome Awesome Awesome thread, thank you so much for this. I was wondering if there was a resource like this somewhere on TL and now I found it.
Thanks again.
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Mind if I ask what build have you used for 3 gateway expansion to get all that many probes and units. I've been practicing with liquipedia's build and cannot get even close to that. Not sure if it's only my macro or my macro and build order that is the problem
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The title of this tread poses the question "So you think you can macro?" then goes on only to give a benchmark for 7-minute timing pushes as a means of evaluation.
So the bronze and silver players that read this are going to think, gee I fixed my macro after they figure out how to do this build. Then in a week when the build bumps their MMR sufficiently and they get gold players that are doing a FE build and easily holding this they are going to make a ton of threads. "I macro'd good but lost to the xyz build"
This approach creates a false sense of confidence.
Once you apply this tread to the common advice here "All you need is macro to get to diamond/masters" you are setting the bronze and silver players up for disaster. Because these all-ins stop consistently winning well above the 50% rate at the 8-minute mark at gold level.
Sure you could probably grind it out over a ton of games to a higher level, but why would you want to be a Silver/Gold skilled player in Diamond/Masters.
Take this thread as a good first step. Just don't call it "good macro"
@pja - I thought I was harsh enough, but you are right, until you figure out how to do it under pressure it is still not good. Btw I am in silver and I get it.
@infinity21 - Not to argue about income, but over-saturation does make a difference as soon as the expo goes up. So it only matters after the push, if/when it is defended. Your three cut probes is a pretty subtle move for a beginner trying to smooth out missing workers completely, having bad production building timings and trying to smooth out when to build supply. So while it was excellent 1-base macro for a timing push and sets the bar high with full disclosure of what you did. It does still somewhat obfuscate macro to the less savvy beginner.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
I do agree with most of your points. I suppose its a matter of perspective. For me, I'm tired of seeing threads that start off with "I'm a gold player with decent macro...". So if you can't match the macro of a good player in the first 7 minutes, then the answer is "no!".
Cutting workers for a stronger push is the correct move as your push will do more damage and win the game for you or force your opponent to lose more workers which makes up for the lower worker count.
As for my replay, I wanted to show that an experienced player can make exception to the often regurgitated rules like "never stop making workers" or "always be producing something out of your barracks" in certain situations. I suppose my point is, if you blindly follow advice such as the ones I said above, then I would say you dont have good macro.
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On February 11 2011 15:17 Obscura.304 wrote:Is this 7 minutes real-time, or 7 minutes in-game? Gold Zerg here, going 14 gas 14 pool, only 36 supply @ 7 minutes in game. http://www.mediafire.com/?9agvp81cndb8puvI'm bad, but close to double my food count? wtf?
What you tried to do here is:
- 10 scout
- 14 gas 14 pool
- Ling speed and queen.
- Expo afterwards
- Get 4 zerglings for map control / scouting purposes (2 larva)
- Keep building econ.
- Get 2nd queen
- Get relatively fast lair.
- Get roach warren.
----------------------
At the 7 minute mark, you had:
- 36 supply.
- 66 APM
- 2 hatcheries, 2 extractors.
- 4 lings, 2 queens.
- 26 drones.
- lair 75% done, roach warren 75% done.
Here's what I did:
- 10 scout
- 14 gas 14 pool
- Ling speed and queen
- 4 lings for map control (2 larva)
- 21 expo
- 2nd queen.
- Econ.
- Relatively fast lair.
- Roach warren.
http://www.mediafire.com/?l5y2504l6c162ve
At the 7 minute mark I had:
- 51 supply.
- 54 APM
- 2 hatcheries, 2 extractors.
- 4 lings, 2 queens.
- 34 drones.
- Lair 80% done.
- Roach warren done.
- 5 roaches building, 55% done. Overlord and 1 ling building.
- Creep between lair and expansion.
Now, I am relatively low masters. I am sure that someone could beat this quite easily (especially players with higher APM). But the difference here is that I am slightly ahead in getting lair, I have my roach warren finished, I have the same gas income that you do, but I have 8 more drones, so I have 28 drones on minerals while you have 18 (I have 150% of your mineral income, equal gas income). And I have 41% higher supply.
With having the exact same plan that you did.
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On February 12 2011 02:44 infinity21 wrote:
I do agree with most of your points. I suppose its a matter of perspective. For me, I'm tired of seeing threads that start off with "I'm a gold player with decent macro...". So if you can't match the macro of a good player in the first 7 minutes, then the answer is "no!".
Fair enough, I agree first 7-minutes is the first necessary baby step. However, even if you do match for the first 7-min and then fall apart, the answer is still "No!"
On February 12 2011 02:44 infinity21 wrote:
Cutting workers for a stronger push is the correct move as your push will do more damage and win the game for you or force your opponent to lose more workers which makes up for the lower worker count.
I agree and understand. This game sense and amount of damage necessary would have been lost on me a month ago (it is very subtle to someone w/o experience), before watching an entire GSL season. I am sure it is still lost on most bronze and silver looking for help here.
On February 12 2011 02:44 infinity21 wrote:
As for my replay, I wanted to show that an experienced player can make exception to the often regurgitated rules like "never stop making workers" or "always be producing something out of your barracks" in certain situations. I suppose my point is, if you blindly follow advice such as the ones I said above, then I would say you dont have good macro.
Again, I agree but these subtleties need to be built off of core mechanics. Your exceptions are strategic decisions, that strengthen your plan of a 1-base timing push. So "good Macro" is dependent on your plan.
You can see this in iEchoics new TvT build that is hellion heavy with Banshee/Viking/Raven. Early on he cuts some hellion production to get his double starport tech up fast. His macro is not bad in those games but he is making strategic decisions. However, if the build stands the test of time, you can be sure that it gets much more optimization, that gets it closer to constant production and slightly slows teching up. Of course his scouting is good and he is a reactive player, so if he saw danger I am sure this happens on the fly as it stands today.
Understanding these strategic decisions is only possible after you have some decent grasp of macro. Finally, from a beginner perspective watching the 3-rax or iEchoic build w/o understanding what they are seeing, they could draw the wrong conclusion that "late workers is generally ok occasionally"
Of course you described exactly why you cut worker production so you did the most you could to mitigate the potential misunderstanding.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
I can agree with that. I believe it was Nony who said if you need to ask when to stop making workers, then you're not ready to stop making workers. So if you don't know when it is beneficial to break these rules, then you shouldn't break them. Going a step further, if you don't know when it is good for you to break these rules, then you still need to work on your macro.
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On February 12 2011 00:23 Eeryck wrote:
So the topic of this thread is so you think you can macro?
It has devolved into a 7-minute optimization of getting units out with people even cutting workers in favor of more units (Not a good macro concept at the low levels).
Good macro and being able to macro goes well beyond 7-minutes. If you try and benchmark anything after 7-minutes there is just simply too much variations in build orders and unit compositions that it is truly worth while.
The ability to macro off a FE build once you hit full saturation is a big leap from a strong 1-base push. Your income is coming twice as fast. Then if you get a reasonably timed 3rd you will have 3 mining bases for a period, being able to have enough production to keep that money spent is a horse of a different color when compared to one basing.
So while an initial eye opening and benchmarking is useful, players should quickly move beyond this mentality. Also, players should not consider their macro good if they can match any of these timings/ unit counts.
This exercise should be considered little more than a mechanics check for one-basing. If you want to consider how well you are macroing a better exercise would be something like this:
Do a FE build
Get a third at 11-12 minutes
Stop at 200/200
Watch the replay 1 time looking at the CC/Nexus/hatch.
-note every time you miss a worker, for how long and why. (fix these problems)
Watch a second time looking at the CC/Nexus/hatch.
-note every time you miss your macro mechanic, for how long and why (fix it)
Watch a third time looking only when you get supply blocked
-not how long and why (fix it)
Watch a fourth time looking at your production facility or production tab
-note when you are not producing from any structure you have made, consider if you needed that structure that early or if you were hiding minerals by building it (fix it)
Watch the replay a fifth time looking at your money
-note every time your minerals goes over 500 (fix it only if it is not caused by items 1-4) by building more producing structures
Watch the replay a sixth time in first person view
-note what screens you are looking at and why. Macro while looking at your army or scout, check that you are constantly tapping, bounce quickly to your base to build supply or add production.
Be very very hard on yourself because even the smallest mistakes cost you units. While this 7-minute benchmark demonstrates this well, it also fails in the real game.
Consider if you get in the mentality that you should have x units at y time in game. Then you get harassed or some early pressure. Then at 7-minutes you have less units and you think "OMG I am behind" this is just a bad place to get to.
So while this is a noble benchmarking exercise, it should only be considered the first baby step to good macro.
No one was claiming that this is the be all end all evaluation of having the best macro you can. It's simply a way for players who think that they're macroing fully efficiently to question that underlying assumption and get some benchmarks of what are possible.
If I post a replay of me playing against select, where I'm getting dropped every 30 seconds, while he's trucking the middle and simultaneousness denying an expo, and then show that to a player who is in bronze or silver, and I made 0 mistakes and I say "if you're macroing perfectly this is what is possible!", they've got nothing to put that in context with. No one has that level of multitasking in the lower leagues, however, if we hand to them a list of stuff you could have at X minutes, and tell them to go into single player and compare them doing that build to the benchmark, you can do that every time. Then, if they're ending up with less, they can question, "Why?" then they go through and fix every little thing they can find and fix those and note the differences
This is a skill all high level players will have and use often. You can show a good player a replay of him doing a build and he can point out all the little spots that he could have done something better to improve efficiency macro wise, which might not be super apparent to a low level player. Things as small as starting a worker too early which delayed my expansion by 5 seconds or something as zerg (you just wasted a larvae). Getting your gas at an inopportune time so you had to make zealots instead of sentries, There's so many little things you can learn from an exercise like this, then carry that into your analysis of your games.
I think you're drastically insulting players intelligence if you think that they'd be watching a replay, got 2 rax'ed, lose a whole bunch of stuff and then they'd think to themselves after the game, "wow, I have less then this optimum amount, guess I'm macroing like shit!"
Why did I pick 7 minutes? Quite simply, everyone's games go up to 7 minutes, unless you're doing some hardcore early rush like a 6 pool. This exercise is just as useful for a 4 gate as it is for a zerg player who wants to play like IdrA. Allot of players in the lower leagues love to do one base plays, and that's fantastic, but why not get the most out of it? If you're not doing a 1 base play doesn't mean that this exercise holds no worth either, as you're still macroing your little heart out at this point, your composition might be different, however. Instead of 15 roaches and a lot of lings you might have 2 lings and shitton of drones.
While I can see where you're coming from, I think you're very severely underestimating the intelligence of low league players if you think that this exercise has no value past the 7 minute mark.
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Also, 7 minutes is a fair thing really. You can say fairly surely that until you hit high diamond at least, you would be better off most of the time doing the exact same thing almost perfectly optimized, than trying to react weirdly to stuff that happens. As evidenced in this thread, there's huge room for improvement.
It's another reason why early all in rushes are so good and can elevate you to masters league: they are easier to execute perfectly, and if done perfectly, they are pretty damn strong.
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So can we get some more strats down. For instance a TvZ. A strong push after so many minutes with a certain army composition. See what the most we can get is. Then you can say for instance 30 +/- so many scvs (due to scout) and marines (+/-) due to early pressure.
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I am currently ~1600 platinum and Ive been working on a 3gate early aggression w/ proxy pylon build that seems to fit well with this time. I usually push at around 6:20 with 4 zealots and 6 stalkers, quickly rienforced by an additional 3 stalkers. If the attack gets pushed back, I pull back and expand instead of reinforcing with the 3 stalkers.
I just loaded up a replay vs AI from when Ive been trying to perfect the opening. with this particular replay I cut probes just before I pushed and reinforced my army.
at the 7:00 mark I have
54/58 supply
26 probes
5 zealots
7 stalkers
2 sentries
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On February 12 2011 08:54 djdoodoo wrote:
So can we get some more strats down. For instance a TvZ. A strong push after so many minutes with a certain army composition. See what the most we can get is. Then you can say for instance 30 +/- so many scvs (due to scout) and marines (+/-) due to early pressure.
Seriously?
It just does not work that way. It is not helpful. If you can't properly value your macro mistakes from what has been shown so far then you need to find another method.
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I would love to see some macro based builds. Like say your in a ZvP, and you see the toss fast expand with a bunch of cannons. You KNOW he isnt going to attack any time soon, so you can get that 3rd hatch up asap and really pump drones, but how many drones should you be able to get by 7 min?
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Yes I definately value how much I could be building instead. The reason I'm doing this is just as practise because as I'm a terran whats wrong with finding out what my potential is and having that bar raised up high so I can try and aim for that in my matches.
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3400 master
1gate robo (g-r-g-g)
7min
33 probes
2obs
4 stalker
2zealots
3 sentries
53 supply
could have started expand w/o making stalkers but made sentries.
a few minor errors as i was chatting but the gist is there i think
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On February 12 2011 09:50 obsid wrote:
I would love to see some macro based builds. Like say your in a ZvP, and you see the toss fast expand with a bunch of cannons. You KNOW he isnt going to attack any time soon, so you can get that 3rd hatch up asap and really pump drones, but how many drones should you be able to get by 7 min?
I believe I have my standard ZvP up there, and it's macro oriented (Roach/Hydra with a burrowed roach timing attack to seize map control) which is very macro oriented. Czech it out. *edit* checked it and it had a 3rd hatch going down on the test run with no unit production beyond scout lings. In the normal build it goes up when you push your roach burrow timing attack about a minute or so later, but in your case, you would most likely forgo suiciding a bunch of roaches into cannons/defense.
Also in your example, you need a fast hydra den, as he's 99% going to go for an air play.
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Thanks to everyone helping the thread. We could use a few more builds posted, I'd be interested to see some toss and terrans put up FE's and such (I don't play either so my T and P are super basic and limited).
Thanks agian. TL fighting.
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Silver League Macro Meltdown
Boring Intro:
+ Show Spoiler +So I'm silver, and I apparently have some serious macro issues. I am trying this thread out as a bit of an experiment. It could really help people in my situation (and some direct criticism might be nice, I'll try to figure out how to post replays and edit some in). Face it fellow less-than--diamonder's we're all probably delusional to some degree. Especially those like me who study and watch Starcraft more than play the game... literally.
The Build Attempted:
+ Show Spoiler +On February 10 2011 13:58 shimpoe wrote:
So this is what I more generally use in PvT,
@7:00 gate gate robo (chrono probes)(fairly quick expansion)
55 supply
1 immortal
5 sentry
2 stalker
1 zealot
1 observer
rest as probes
natural expansion around 80%-85% complete
What is interesting to me is how little the nexus actually slows things down; considering it isn't complete yet, I haven't inflated my supply with probes or income. I suppose the extra production of the third gateway doesn't have as large as an influence at this point as I would have assumed because it's fairly delayed and hasn't gotten a lot of use yet.
I hope more people catch on and participate in this thread. It's pretty interesting comparing to yourself, but I'd love to see what some other (better) players come up with as benchmarks.
So I'm going for this build here. I figured this is enough said about the general build. Sadly it is not enough info to actually execute a build. More on this later. I played the game against very easy A.I. on Xel'Naga Caverns. There were no interruptions to my macro.
Results:
Game 1:
+ Show Spoiler +
7:00
28 Probes
1 Observer
1 Zealot
1 Stalker
1 Sentry
Supply: 42/42
Avg. APM: 53
Nexus: 100% at exactly 7:00. Not sure how I managed to time it like that.
Unspent Resources: 125 Minerals / 275 Gas
Army Value: 300 Mineral / 225 Gas
Game 2:
+ Show Spoiler +
27 Probes
1 Observer
2 Zealots
1 Immortal
1 Stalker
2 Sentries
Supply: 44/50
Avg. APM: 51
Nexus: 59.7%
Unspent Resources: 155 Minerals / 155 Gas
Army Value: 700 Minerals / 425 Gas
Conclusion:
+ Show Spoiler +My macro is horrible. I'm going to try this same build again tomorrow AFTER looking it up. The most painful and yet obvious mistake was that I didn't know exactly what to build. I think it's almost necessary for us bronze, silver, and possibly gold players to have sticky notes of the opening builds we want to use. Three of of them perhaps, one for each race MU, with actual timing or supply reminders. Believe it or not, I actually study and watch more Starcraft than I play. Since this build is something so far out of my comfort zone of three gate to eventual robo, or four gate then expand, that it was really necessary to have a much more focused goal. This is coming into a sharp and clear reality after being able to compare myself to others in this thread, since I'm clearly not where I could be even though I "know" the rules. I know I can't be supply blocked, but still am. I know I need to be using chrono boost, but I don't. When I wake up and am a little more refreshed I'm going to try it again. Also going to try a four gate and see the disparity between a build I'm comfortable with and the build for these two games, as compared to other players of varying rank and skill. If anyone thinks they could help me with some more info let me know I'll try to find a way to make replays (surely its not too hard) if this could be a venue for that sort of advice? Also going to try to find the video of day9 where apparently he talks about how he uses his hotkeys to remind him of his macro rotation. I don't even have a macro rotation. I don't really know what that would entail. Would love to see this day9 video if anyone knows what I'm referring to. I'll be looking for this tomorrow, but since I don't think 'Day 9 macro tips' will be very search engine friendly. Sadly I was on my phone when I read that thread I think...
Such.. a long... (first)post.
So tired.
Must... sleep.
TL;DR:
+ Show Spoiler +
Time to stop being delusional and focus on the basics if you're in the same boat as my Silver League ass..
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On February 12 2011 13:39 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:
3400 master
1gate robo (g-r-g-g)
7min
33 probes
2obs
4 stalker
2zealots
3 sentries
53 supply
could have started expand w/o making stalkers but made sentries.
a few minor errors as i was chatting but the gist is there i think
Would you mind posting a replay? I am looking into trying to switch from Z to P and looking for good expansion builds I can try to learn.
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Hi,
I am a silver league player and here is my 7:00 minute status. Playing Protoss I went for 3 Gate -> Expand:
31 probes
48/50 food
1 zealot
6 stalker
1 sentry
expansion 37 % done,
2nd gas 50 % done
I was also sending a scout probe away after building the 9/10 pylon.
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On February 11 2011 03:47 OnlineHero wrote:
3 gate expand
57/58
32 probes
7 zealots
4 stalkers
1 sentry
I had about 300 minerals saved up here for the nexus. I was really suprised how much difference perfect timing makes...
I was trying to figure out why you are 10 food ahead of me, until I realized that you haven't put down your nexus for a very very long time. I think this is mis representing it. For instance, I can manage about 48-50 food using my 3 gate expo build that puts down the nex right after the first warp in.
However, this is 2 supply ahead of what I saw Huk get in this game:
+ Show Spoiler +
As we can see, Huk manages 40 supply (probe in production), having lost 4-5 supply beforehand, making a grand total of 45 supply. I'll post the summaries from one of my games and Huk's game below.
Huk
45/42
29 probes*
7 sentries*
1 zealot*
Nexus @2/3 completed
2 gateways just put down
* he lost one of these beforehand, but I included it in the final food tally
Me
47/50
31 probes
3 sentries
4 stalkers (+1 on the way)
1 zealot
Nexus @1/3 completed
Forge completed
I'm a gold 1800 toss, but the expansion timing of a 3 gate expo hugely influences your food at the 7 min mark, because no matter what, you HAVE to cut probes and/or units in order to bank up enough minerals to expand. Please post your expansion completion for reference
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Arisen wanted a "FE" build. This is what I use against most zerg:
2Rax Expand
7:00 minute mark:
Try 1
46/62
27 scvs
16 marine
2 marines building
Factory 44/60
Expo's OC 31/35
Stim 60/140
Try 2
45/70
26 scvs
16 marines
2 marines building
Factory completed / Tech 11/25
Expo floating to Nat
Terran just promoted into Platinum, but believe that I am more of a high gold player.
I would like to thank you for this thread. It gives me a different insight into how to look at my builds. I know that I can cut some gas once I get the factory up.
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This is a really fantastic idea! It's exactly what i've been looking for to solve the massive headache i've had against 1base Terran plays.
If anyone has time could they do some later push times (like 8-10mins)? I find this is quite a common time for Terran to push with MM because the bio ball seems to get exponentially stronger the bigger it gets, so hitting just before the Protoss can possibly get splash damage seems to be a great timing.
These are the builds I would love to see 8min and 10min unit compositions for:
Terran 3rax (1 reactor 2 techlab)
Any Protoss FE (1gate FE, 3gate FE, gate robo FE etc)
Protoss 4gate
Protoss 3gate robo
Anyone keen?
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On February 14 2011 11:42 Balinor wrote:
This is a really fantastic idea! It's exactly what i've been looking for to solve the massive headache i've had against 1base Terran plays.
If anyone has time could they do some later push times (like 8-10mins)? I find this is quite a common time for Terran to push with MM because the bio ball seems to get exponentially stronger the bigger it gets, so hitting just before the Protoss can possibly get splash damage seems to be a great timing.
These are the builds I would love to see 8min and 10min unit compositions for:
Terran 3rax (1 reactor 2 techlab)
Any Protoss FE (1gate FE, 3gate FE, gate robo FE etc)
Protoss 4gate
Protoss 3gate robo
Anyone keen?
3 Rax and 4 gate's numbers should stay the same fluctuating slightly up and down slightly after they attack, as they are an all-in timing attack, that is to say, either they win the game shortly after the attack, or they trade armies for infrastructure, and deal enough damage to secure equal footing going into the midgame, or fail to do damage and lose very quickly (or should). The army trading aspects of these 2 builds, therefore, is not conducive to this sort of exercise.
A 3 gate robo is highly variable. A 3 gate robo opening aims to do one of two thigs. The first is to hit a timing window to deal major damage (immortal and/or colossus timing attacks), and expanding behind that or all-ining at that point, which would fall under the previous category (army trading). The other would be to play defensively getting an eventual expansion by cutting production of either probes, pylons (by attacking and losing units), or units. 3 gate robo would be what I call a defensive 1 base play. The build is very good at defending early pressure, but given that you constantly produce probes, pylons, and units from all your facilities, you will not have the money for an expo for a very long time, if at all (perhaps if you produce a ton of sentries you'll eventually have the money, but producing stalkers and zealots, all of your money will be eaten up), thus you cut production in order to secure an expansion, which allows increased production capablities. When you cut production will be a major factor in what your build looks like at a certain time. An earlier unit cut would have a lower number @ 8 but a higher number @ 10. A later cut would be the opposite.
My Advise is to use the timings at 7:00, and then watch those reps and find out exactly where you missed production, and learning what it looks like to have good macro. The point of the exercise is less to see what you can do in 7 minutes, but more about trying to hit that and noticing when/what your mistakes are, and applying those to all of your replays. After you're comfortable with the 7:00 approach, you'll have enough knowledge to look at a long game of yourself playing and instinctively know "this is a period where my macro faultered for this reason" and be able to fix it. I would like to oblige all these kinds of requests, but eventually, things will just become cluttered into
This is what a 3 gate robo looks like @ 7,8,9,10, 11, 12, 13....
Hope that helps, if not, post again and I'll see if I can help out
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On February 14 2011 16:45 Arisen wrote:
My Advise is to use the timings at 7:00, and then watch those reps and find out exactly where you missed production, and learning what it looks like to have good macro. The point of the exercise is less to see what you can do in 7 minutes, but more about trying to hit that and noticing when/what your mistakes are, and applying those to all of your replays. After you're comfortable with the 7:00 approach, you'll have enough knowledge to look at a long game of yourself playing and instinctively know "this is a period where my macro faultered for this reason" and be able to fix it. I would like to oblige all these kinds of requests, but eventually, things will just become cluttered into
This is what a 3 gate robo looks like @ 7,8,9,10, 11, 12, 13....
Hope that helps, if not, post again and I'll see if I can help out
You can not see what it looks like to have good macro if you don't know what to look for. So even with replays if you don't know what you are watching it does not help.
For Example:
Building a supply depot at 10 for Terran. You can do it right when you have 100 minerals or you can do it at ~160 minerals and still be at 10 supply. Until you understand that good macro says that you build it at 100 minerals Exactly you can not see it in a replay. Then they need to further understand that you don't want your worker to arrive where they are going to build it until you have exactly those minerals.
Without understanding things like this watching a optimized replay does not help someone with poor macro.
Furthermore, you can see the requests for every build under the sun with every timing. It should further show that people don't want to adjust what they are doing to practice and learn how to understand macro and how to value their mistakes.
Those that do really want to improve have already, learned macro concepts through study and have posted a replay of an actual game where they thought they macro'd well and got a personalized response of all their macro bumps.
The instinctive part you speak of is only there if they really have the macro concepts burned into their head and are just missing the concept of how to value their mistakes properly.
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High gold Zerg.
Tried what I do in ZvT, 11 pool, 18 hatch going for muta ling bling, these are the results at 7minutes:
Practice:
44/44 food
29 Drones
5 Overlords with one more about to pop
16 Speedlings with more 6 1/2 done
2 queens, 2 expos running
baneling nest ready
lair just started
This is when I expect an attack at 7 minute mark, I pump drones until around 30 supply and then some lings to defend if necessary, ready to become blings.
I just watched a replay of me playing ZvT where I was supposed to do exactly this and, well, this is how it looked at the 7 minute mark:
Replay:
36/36 food
23 Drones
4 overlords with 3 almost complete
17 Zeglings (Speed 1/3 done) with more 2 killed in action (scouting)
2 queens, 2 running expos but very few drones
no baneling nest yet
lair already started, 1/3 complete.
By the 8 minute I get 31 drones but even so it's disturbing the difference in the test and in the real game. Gotta practice more, I wasn't aware of this. Thanks to the OP, nice idea, man.
Edit: Now I know why. In the replay I've made the lings too soon, it screwed with my drone count and I forgot speed and to do my 3rd queen imediattly after the second... Now I see, I did think that my macro was decent but it's terrible. I feel almost sad.
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Canada13379 Posts
On February 10 2011 07:48 `chain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 07:19 Arisen wrote:
I refuse to believe that the Team Liquid Community doesn't care enough to give back to it's newer members. Cheers everyone. Very true. However, I do believe that there is one problem with the TL community - the players in plat-master don't really understand how hard it is to get out of bronze once you've screwed up. I've been stuck at Bronze 1 for about a month because I dropped ~15 games due to my stupid internet T~T - or maybe I just don't play enough. As for myself, I've been working on my macro a lot - I stopped 4gating after I realized it would get me to perhaps mid-diamond, but I would eventually have to work on macro. At first, I was sure I could climb the ladder quickly and get to silver/gold, but it turns out it's actually a lot more work than I first thought. However, I'm working on it- and I'm hovering at about 50/50 win ratio. Looks like I need more work. Now, I have a question. I saw the diamond on macro only thread, and I want to try that. However, I'm hovering around 100W/80L, so I'm probably not going anywhere soon. Even though you probably wouldn't care about my rank, I've been dying to know how long it would take me to get to at least gold. Would anyone care to help?
Sorry android app posted before I could type lol. Be prepared my friend I had the same problem as you and made it to diamond 50 games ago. I've played at least 700 games with a 54% wlr. Not easy to move up when you have so many games at a particular level and a very stable mmr. You need to do a lot to get the mmr back up.
In addition I may try a 2 gate tivo opening later today and see what my supply is at. Don't usually forget pylons until 80 food to 100 food that's my pylon block zone
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If you win 20 - 30 games in a row, you will advance a league I am pretty sure.
The thing is, if you win 60% of your games ... it will take some time.
But if anyone in masters league took over a bronze account with no bonus pool, I am fairly sure that it would be diamond within 100-150 games. It wouldn't take the system many games to realize your rating is no longer valid and start matching you against higher rated players.
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On February 15 2011 00:12 Eeryck wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 16:45 Arisen wrote:
My Advise is to use the timings at 7:00, and then watch those reps and find out exactly where you missed production, and learning what it looks like to have good macro. The point of the exercise is less to see what you can do in 7 minutes, but more about trying to hit that and noticing when/what your mistakes are, and applying those to all of your replays. After you're comfortable with the 7:00 approach, you'll have enough knowledge to look at a long game of yourself playing and instinctively know "this is a period where my macro faultered for this reason" and be able to fix it. I would like to oblige all these kinds of requests, but eventually, things will just become cluttered into
This is what a 3 gate robo looks like @ 7,8,9,10, 11, 12, 13....
Hope that helps, if not, post again and I'll see if I can help out
You can not see what it looks like to have good macro if you don't know what to look for. So even with replays if you don't know what you are watching it does not help. For Example: Building a supply depot at 10 for Terran. You can do it right when you have 100 minerals or you can do it at ~160 minerals and still be at 10 supply. Until you understand that good macro says that you build it at 100 minerals Exactly you can not see it in a replay. Then they need to further understand that you don't want your worker to arrive where they are going to build it until you have exactly those minerals. Without understanding things like this watching a optimized replay does not help someone with poor macro. Furthermore, you can see the requests for every build under the sun with every timing. It should further show that people don't want to adjust what they are doing to practice and learn how to understand macro and how to value their mistakes. Those that do really want to improve have already, learned macro concepts through study and have posted a replay of an actual game where they thought they macro'd well and got a personalized response of all their macro bumps. The instinctive part you speak of is only there if they really have the macro concepts burned into their head and are just missing the concept of how to value their mistakes properly.
That's why this method is helpful. When you have a definite benchmark of what is possible compared to your current game, you can fiddle with things until you are at that level of the benchmark. It can be hard, but after a while, you'll end up staring at your base and noticing, "oh, I have 200 minerals when I place down that baracks, I could do that at 150, and lets see what happens". Then that player will find he ends up with 1 more marine, and 1 more SCV because his OC timing is dead on the money, then he makes another little adjustment and then another, and he figures out for himself how to get to that benchmark and he'll feel like a baller. Then when he watches his replays, he'll know JUST what to look for to see if he slipped up in his macro. Too many people look at their money, and if it's low, they think they're playing great, and they need to know that more is possible. When you know more is possible, you can look for mistakes, and when you do that, you'll find where the problems in your play lie.
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Arisen, thank you for this wonderful thread. (And many others actually...)
Is there a way we get these added to every BO in liquipedia? Obviously timings will change for specific games based on earlier harasses/etc, but it would be great to have a number to compare with.
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THE KEY TO MACRO MECHANICS:- by CyberD
Use The Process: CAP -- TAP -- MAP (this is how i remember it in the correct order).
Now before telling you the process, you must understand this is something that has to be done constantly, NOT every minute or 30 seconds, BUT between most of your actions and most definitely when you are idle. This is the main mechanic of macro; to be constantly building whatever is available to you, with the given time, without the need of queuing. :D
Applying The Mental Process
CAP -- Pop CAP/Income -- Info Gathering/Building Macro -- Eye Location: Top-Right
This is merely your first action that you will be doing in the cycle, the entire purpose of this is to keep yourself up to date on your population cap and income, and therefore be able to base decisions on what to spend your money on (supply/units etc). This is also where you BUILD STRUCTURES/SUPPLY if necessary. This may sound self explanatory, but it is merely the process of constantly looking at you CAP and building SUPPLY that ensures good macro and keeps your money down. and you'd be surprised how often you don't look at your CAP... does "build more supply" sound familiar  (Tip: if your minerals are getting high in the early stages of the game, you may find you need to build supply)
TAP -- "The Tap" -- The Unit Macro -- Eye Location: Bottom-Centre
So you may be asking what the hell is "The Tap", well ill tell you... Just make sure that you are competent with hot keys and that you are selecting buildings via hot key NOT clicking them ... now for this example I will be using Terran & assuming I have the hot keys:-
1. Command Centre (Nexus/Queens)
2. Barracks (Gateway/Hatch)
3. Factory (Robotics/Lair)
4. Starport (Stargate/Hive)
5. Engineering Bay (Forge/Evolution Chamber)
Now "The Tap" is merely the process of taping each number hot key and LOOKING at the bottom of the screen to see the building's current status and deciding there and then whether anything needs to be built, then moving on to the next hot key. This ensures you know the current status of all your buildings and are constantly building from your production structures, here is an example of a cycle of TAP using the designated hot keys:-
TAP "1" -- Command Centre -- SCV at 80% -- Build SCV -- TAP "S"
TAP "2" -- Barracks -- No Production -- Build Marine -- TAP "A"
TAP "3" -- Factory -- Siege Tank at 30% -- **Skip**
TAP "4" -- Starport -- Reactor Still Building -- **Skip**
TAP "5" -- Engineering Bay -- Just Finished Building -- Upgrade Weapons -- TAP "E"
It is as simple as that. However, it takes quite a bit of practice to implement since you will keep forgetting at first, but forcing yourself to do it again and again will make it pretty much an automatic reaction, which is what you want when you begin to start focusing on strategies. The only problem is that this relies on the fact that you should constantly be hot keying buildings/units, again this is a learned process that will become more natural in time, but you will also find as you initiate the TAP that you will notice something is missing and then add the appropriate hot key, the more things you have hot keyed in your TAP cycle the better. Finally and most importantly it allows you to macro while NOT focusing on your base, allowing you to macro in battle or elsewhere you are looking & remember it's not set in stone, there is no use cycling through buildings if they are redundant (i.e the factory in marine/medivac)
MAP -- MiniMap -- Info Gathering/Army Decisions -- Eye Location: Bottom-Left
The minimap not exactly key to macro, but key to VICTORY. This screen provides you the most IMPORTANT information available to you and gives you the means to travel anywhere on the map via instantaneous click. It lets you know where your troops are, and where their troops are. What decisions you should make and so on... It is critical that you spend MORE time looking at the minimap than the main screen. But why is the mini map MORE IMPORTANT than the main screen? :-
When not in battle
1. The minimap shows you everything that is going on via the combined sight radius of ALL your structures and units.
2. It shows you an enemy army before they attack your base (yes, that's right folks ), allowing you to move to defend before they attack (not at the time there is an audio announcement and its too late!)
3. The minimap is a reminder to expand, if you look and see you have enough minerals an you know you have an advantage already over your opponent... why not?
4. When Zerg the minimap is your BEST indication as to whether to morph drones or not!
When in battle
1. The minimap allows you to co-ordinate your forces and see where they are positioned throughout the map (A good way to pick up stray forces that were neglected to be hot keyed)
2. It shows you if there are multiple points of attack occurring (i.e reapers/mutas at back of base). It is so IMPORTANT that you look at your minimap during a battle, cause if you don't nothing will be there when you return home (Even I have fell victim to this on many an occasion)
3. If you are on the attack it also ensures your reinforcements are not being intercepted
Final Thoughts
So really the mind set you got to have is to always be in macro mode, constantly producing units, and being aware of your money/supply. From applying the process you will come to notice that you are making a clockwise motion with your eyes as you go from CAP to TAP to MAP and over time this becomes natural, you will realise that you already know what your supply is because your eyes have constantly being traversing the screen without you thinking about it. Essentially once you break the habit of staring directly at the centre of the screen, you will become more engaged with the game and start enjoying yourself a bit more. Hope This Helps
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On February 18 2011 10:04 CyberDemon wrote:THE KEY TO MACRO MECHANICS:- by CyberD Use The Process: CAP -- TAP -- MAP (this is how i remember it in the correct order). Now before telling you the process, you must understand this is something that has to be done constantly, NOT every minute or 30 seconds, BUT between most of your actions and most definitely when you are idle. This is the main mechanic of macro; to be constantly building whatever is available to you, with the given time, without the need of queuing. :D Applying The Mental ProcessCAP -- Pop CAP/Income -- Info Gathering/Building Macro -- Eye Location: Top-Right This is merely your first action that you will be doing in the cycle, the entire purpose of this is to keep yourself up to date on your population cap and income, and therefore be able to base decisions on what to spend your money on (supply/units etc). This is also where you BUILD STRUCTURES/SUPPLY if necessary. This may sound self explanatory, but it is merely the process of constantly looking at you CAP and building SUPPLY that ensures good macro and keeps your money down. and you'd be surprised how often you don't look at your CAP... does "build more supply" sound familiar (Tip: if your minerals are getting high in the early stages of the game, you may find you need to build supply)TAP -- "The Tap" -- The Unit Macro -- Eye Location: Bottom-Centre So you may be asking what the hell is "The Tap", well ill tell you... Just make sure that you are competent with hot keys and that you are selecting buildings via hot key NOT clicking them ... now for this example I will be using Terran & assuming I have the hot keys:-
1. Command Centre (Nexus/Queens)
2. Barracks (Gateway/Hatch)
3. Factory (Robotics/Lair)
4. Starport (Stargate/Hive)
5. Engineering Bay (Forge/Evolution Chamber)
Now "The Tap" is merely the process of taping each number hot key and LOOKING at the bottom of the screen to see the building's current status and deciding there and then whether anything needs to be built, then moving on to the next hot key. This ensures you know the current status of all your buildings and are constantly building from your production structures, here is an example of a cycle of TAP using the designated hot keys:-
TAP "1" -- Command Centre -- SCV at 80% -- Build SCV -- TAP "S"
TAP "2" -- Barracks -- No Production -- Build Marine -- TAP "A"
TAP "3" -- Factory -- Siege Tank at 30% -- **Skip**
TAP "4" -- Starport -- Reactor Still Building -- **Skip**
TAP "5" -- Engineering Bay -- Just Finished Building -- Upgrade Weapons -- TAP "E"
It is as simple as that. However, it takes quite a bit of practice to implement since you will keep forgetting at first, but forcing yourself to do it again and again will make it pretty much an automatic reaction, which is what you want when you begin to start focusing on strategies. The only problem is that this relies on the fact that you should constantly be hot keying buildings/units, again this is a learned process that will become more natural in time, but you will also find as you initiate the TAP that you will notice something is missing and then add the appropriate hot key, the more things you have hot keyed in your TAP cycle the better. Finally and most importantly it allows you to macro while NOT focusing on your base, allowing you to macro in battle or elsewhere you are looking & remember it's not set in stone, there is no use cycling through buildings if they are redundant (i.e the factory in marine/medivac)MAP -- MiniMap -- Info Gathering/Army Decisions -- Eye Location: Bottom-Left The minimap not exactly key to macro, but key to VICTORY. This screen provides you the most IMPORTANT information available to you and gives you the means to travel anywhere on the map via instantaneous click. It lets you know where your troops are, and where their troops are. What decisions you should make and so on... It is critical that you spend MORE time looking at the minimap than the main screen. But why is the mini map MORE IMPORTANT than the main screen? :-
When not in battle
1. The minimap shows you everything that is going on via the combined sight radius of ALL your structures and units.
2. It shows you an enemy army before they attack your base (yes, that's right folks ), allowing you to move to defend before they attack (not at the time there is an audio announcement and its too late!)
3. The minimap is a reminder to expand, if you look and see you have enough minerals an you know you have an advantage already over your opponent... why not?
4. When Zerg the minimap is your BEST indication as to whether to morph drones or not!
When in battle
1. The minimap allows you to co-ordinate your forces and see where they are positioned throughout the map (A good way to pick up stray forces that were neglected to be hot keyed)
2. It shows you if there are multiple points of attack occurring (i.e reapers/mutas at back of base). It is so IMPORTANT that you look at your minimap during a battle, cause if you don't nothing will be there when you return home (Even I have fell victim to this on many an occasion)
3. If you are on the attack it also ensures your reinforcements are not being interceptedFinal ThoughtsSo really the mind set you got to have is to always be in macro mode, constantly producing units, and being aware of your money/supply. From applying the process you will come to notice that you are making a clockwise motion with your eyes as you go from CAP to TAP to MAP and over time this becomes natural, you will realise that you already know what your supply is because your eyes have constantly being traversing the screen without you thinking about it. Essentially once you break the habit of staring directly at the centre of the screen, you will become more engaged with the game and start enjoying yourself a bit more. Hope This Helps
It's cool that you put so much thought into this, but it is not on topic. I'd encourage you to post this as its own thread, though. Thanks.
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On a similar topic, has anyone tried getting to 200 supply in the fastest time to practice their macro??
As a P player, I have been using a basic 2 gate robo build into expand (on 34), and build only zealots/stalkers/sentries...my best is 16:25 which sounds slow to me, so wondering if other ppl out there have done it and can tell me what is an approx good time to aim for?? Like what do Masters/Diamonds do the time at??
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5Z8S Rush
6:00
50/50 Supply
24 Probes
5 Zealots
8 Stalkers
3 Gateways
1 Core
2 Assimilators
That is if you do it perfect. Usually for me i end up like this 20ish seconds later.
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I tried the 3 warp gate and at about 7:45ish I had:
2 bases
31 probes
1 zealot
8 sentries
3 stalkers
3 gates
cyber core
forge
57 supply
I had a slight supply block at 42/42 but only for a few seconds, I missed a probe after I built my c core/zealot(is that normal because I can't find a way to avoid it without delaying my cyber?), and I missed 1 chronoboost on my sentry. Apart from that it was pretty crisp.
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So i decided to just take one of my ladder replays instead of analyzing a vs. AI game.
I am a 3k diamond protoss player
I did a 3 gate sentry expand (PvZ), and at 7:00 I had:
1 Base (1 nexus at 57/100)
28 Probes
1 Zealot
8 Sentries
3 Gateways
forge at 35/45
and 47/50 supply with a pylon at 6/25 and a probe just about to finish (it says 17/17 on the progress bar)
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My timing on a three gate stargate is 6 stalkers, a void ray, and one zealot, along with 22 probes at 6:35. 3 more stalkers/zeals/sentries ready in 30 seconds chronoboosted.
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I will teach you guys the secret of good "macro". Macro is the latest fashion trend in starcraft 2, it is easy for a player to answer questions and to give advice when all they have to say is macro. However, learning how to do this "macro" is a difficult task, even after thousands and thousands of hours of practice you can be assured that your macro can be better. I believe good macro is not making a lot of units and keeping your minerals low. Good macro is knowing everything. The size of a map and your starting locations will dictate which build orders are ideal, whether you can delay buildings and units in favour of workers, and also tells you which build order is optimal in response to their build order. You can never be supply blocked, always keep your minerals low, always keep producing units and workers, but if you're doing it in the wrong order and you're doing a build and building units that get countered by your opponent's units then everything you've done was futile. Weak players don't seem to understand starcraft 2 at a deep level. This is a strategy forum and while you can boast about how many units you have at 7:00, did you know that at every time up to 7:00 there will be times where you're lower in count and higher in count. There is an optimised build for every time, one that maximises amount of units at every point in time depending on your build. It is therefore imperative that you know the timing and build of your opponent so you can know when you actually need x amount of units at 7:00. Perhaps you never needed 8 sentries and 1 zealot. Perhaps you could have cut those gateways and zealots in favour of a nexus and have more units at 10:00 which is when your opponent attack, and could have never taken advantage of u at 7:00. What I want you people in particular to understand about macro is that there it's something situational and you have to be able to change builds according to the situation. It's easy to say keep producing workers. But there are times you must cut workers to lay down a nexus or 3 simultaneous gateways once your economy is able to support it. There are times where you don't inject larva so you can lay creep or use transfusion for an incoming attack. There are times where you don't spend chrono so you can use it later on tech,production buildings or even later on nexus when you know it'll payoff better considering your supply. This is what separates a good player from an average one. General advice like constantly use your macro mechanics, don't get supply blocked and keep producing units are obvious. But at the deeper strategic level there are times when you have to know when you are able to be supply blocked. say you have a build where u get capped at 42/42 but you know thats your warp gates research is about to be finished, and you're setting up a proxy pylon. And if you had put down an earlier pylon you wouldn't be able to warp in 3 stalkers from your proxy pylon. It's THESE things people have to understand.
THEREFORE, it is pointless to compare how many units you have at 7;xx or 6:xx, since there are builds optimised to maximise units at any point in time. Not to mention that they don't take into account weaknesses. Someone could get more units at 7:30 by going double CC and rax, so they have 2 orbitals. But that just makes u vulnerable to a timing window early on. Also having more units at 7:30 might not matter as long as you capitalise on it. Is it more relative to the opponent? Does it set you up for exploiting your opponent's timing window? or will the opponent just have more units at 8:00 when you reach his base? Or will that no. of units be nullfied by his build that relies on 2 bunkers, whereas if you had less units by teched to blink you could've bypassed his bunker build?
I just think these discussions on macro are pretty shallow and don't consider the real important issues in being good at sc2 strategy. So tell what plan do you have in mind for those units you built at 7:00? What is ur goal by making as many units as u could have made at that time? How does that put you ahead of ur opponent? What if the guy who believed he had good macro, who had little units at 7:00, infact had a lot of units at 3:00 where his opponent was weak? I believe there are peaks at certain times when you have more units.
I will tell you now that I'm master at 1v1,2v2,3v3,4v4. If you want to be good you should watch your own replays, see where you could've exploited his weakness, where he could've explotied your weakness, and just in general analyse your opponents play. You don't get better from saying oh my nexus wasn't pumping 24/7, that must be why I lost. It may very well be the reason you lost but I can assure you there was something deeper. I've played with many players in team games who will 2 gate, have a lot of zealots but don't use them at all, then get overrun by superior units because the enemy they just went for fast multiple production buildlings and workers. The player who massed zealots might think where did i go wrong, i kept my money low and kept producing units. The problem came down to him not knowing the strengths of his own build, and the weaknesses of his opponents build. So just ask yourself. When you say I can make x amount of units at 7:00, ask yourself why you put 7:00 as your goal, what you hope to accomplish with those units.
This is the same reason why there is no one ultimate build. Since every build has its weakness. Infact some good players know their build weaknesses but may proceed anyway, gambling on the fact that the enemy won't exploit it. But I can GUARANTEE you, the best players know these things. They WILL exploit. The best players, don't win just because of their micro abilities, reaction time or great multitasking. They combine their knowledge of builds with their execution. It just gets deeper at this point. The best players in the world will even use the opponent's knowledge against them by purposefully taking odd scouting paths, cancelling tech, executing "fakes" where they know the opponent knows of a strong strategy but they will fake that strategy and just do something completely different. like double expanding while faking an all-in attack by taking advantage of the opponents incomplete knowledge. All I can say is that the starcraft hole goes pretty deep and the BEST place to start isn't looking at how many units you have at what time. Just saying since there are tons of these discussions that won't really improve you in the most meaningful manner.
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Wow, this is a really cool thread. I hadn't checked it out until today!
Seems quite a nice reference for opener benchmarks.
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gateway-robo-gateway-gateway
34 probes
3 zealots
1 stalker
4 sentries
1 immortals
2 observer
7 minute mark.
>> Platinum 1500.
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On February 10 2011 07:56 Shifft wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 07:48 `chain wrote:On February 10 2011 07:19 Arisen wrote:
I refuse to believe that the Team Liquid Community doesn't care enough to give back to it's newer members. Cheers everyone. Very true. However, I do believe that there is one problem with the TL community - the players in plat-master don't really understand how hard it is to get out of bronze once you've screwed up. I've been stuck at Bronze 1 for about a month because I dropped ~15 games due to my stupid internet T~T - or maybe I just don't play enough. As for myself, I've been working on my macro a lot - I stopped 4gating after I realized it would get me to perhaps mid-diamond, but I would eventually have to work on macro. At first, I was sure I could climb the ladder quickly and get to silver/gold, but it turns out it's actually a lot more work than I first thought. However, I'm working on it- and I'm hovering at about 50/50 win ratio. Looks like I need more work. Now, I have a question. I saw the diamond on macro only thread, and I want to try that. However, I'm hovering around 100W/80L, so I'm probably not going anywhere soon. Even though you probably wouldn't care about my rank, I've been dying to know how long it would take me to get to at least gold. Would anyone care to help? This is a misconception that I see a lot actually, with the way the ladder system works if you go on a win streak your MMR will rise rapidly. I would say that if someone in bronze suddenly starts winning every one of their games they will be in masters within 50-60 games.
I'd contest this. I'm silver and am up 29 wins over my last 42 games, am currently on an 11 game winning streak (3 of which were fellow silvers, 6 of which were gold and the remaining two platinum) and it has so far refused to promote me.
From what I understand, this is because the matchmaking isn't sure I'm just getting lucky or actually have improved. Though it doesn't have much of a problem matching me against people "better" than me even though it claims they're even matches, it is reluctant to promote me in case I'm just streaking and haven't actually improved.
Either that, or it just hates me.
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Really, really useful thread. With benchmarks such as these we can watch our replays and find the little things that have gone wrong.
I think the best "scores" (and their replay) should be added to the liquipedia articles of their respective builds- it's a much clearer indicator of what to expect from them and could solve much of the beginners' problems.
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this wuz my 1st time, i'm plat. PvT moved out @ 8:45 w/ proxy pylon, luckily no stim, he went banshees. killed him by busting the 2 bunkers w/ more than is here. got a few more sentries, adding zealots on approach.
g-r-g-g
7:00
Placed pylon @ 42/42
1 immo, 2nd ~45%
2 zealots, 3rd almost done
2 sentries
2nd gate almost done, 3rd 50%
WG tech – 2 s left
50 min, 300gas
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This is an amazing thread, assuming the builds supplied are truely good and optimized. Not only can I do a build and check if I'm close to a high master, I can also look at an opponent build high master and check it against my own build to see if it's comparable.
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2rax expand: 900 point master terran player here
at 7:00 yields 50 supply, and 2 mules.
Units:
29 scvs
21 marines.
This is a special variant I use in TvZ. I do the normal 2rax expand (expand at 5 marines), but I keep adding in barracks as my income allows while keeping constant scv+marine production. There are 4 marines in production at 7:00.
The upside to this build is an almost 100% winrate vs zerg. I can max out at the 12:30 mark with only marines.
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On May 25 2011 20:34 ButtCraft wrote:
2rax expand: 900 point master terran player here
at 7:00 yields 50 supply, and 2 mules.
Units:
29 scvs
21 marines.
This is a special variant I use in TvZ. I do the normal 2rax expand (expand at 5 marines), but I keep adding in barracks as my income allows while keeping constant scv+marine production. There are 4 marines in production at 7:00.
The upside to this build is an almost 100% winrate vs zerg. I can max out at the 12:30 mark with only marines.
Sounds like a 0% winrate if zerg went banelings, which they obviously did when they scouted you.
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High diamond player here, started out in bronze and went for the macro approach.
I found it worked 100% macro focus until the diamond league border.
Once you get there it cycles a bit between gaining more understanding then improving your mechanics to ultilize this understanding etc
For instance, I had good enough macro to break diamond league, I would beat diamond zergs / terrans a lot but I couldnt beat protoss, a leap in my understanding of TvP took me to diamond league, then increasing my understanding of TvZ and TvT took my top diamond.
Now I am there I feel like I have 'good' macro but by that I mean relative to my league but in my current position I feel like the key to my next big 'jump' in skill is entirely mechanics, I spent enough time figuring things out and that helped but now im being held back by multitasking and mid-late game macro as opposed to some fundamental flaw in my gameplay.
I think the problem here lies with peoples understanding of what people are saying, I know a tonne of diamond / masters level guys who took the macro till diamond to mean once you're there your mechanics are fine, you macro fine, so theres no need to improve them, which actually leads to a lot of imbalance arguements which are actually just a case of someone losing because the other player had better mechanics.
Everyone should focus on their mechanics, but I think what people dont quite get is that throughout your progression there are periods where its understanding holding you back, even at the crazy top level this is still true, just as it is at the bronze league, its just that the knowledge you gain before diamond league is generally conceptually easy or often straightforward stuff you pick up almost by osmosis, so focusing on mechanics whilst playing will gain you enough knowledge.
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I think the problem here lies with peoples understanding of what people are saying, I know a tonne of diamond / masters level guys who took the macro till diamond to mean once you're there your mechanics are fine, you macro fine, so theres no need to improve them, which actually leads to a lot of imbalance arguements which are actually just a case of someone losing because the other player had better mechanics.
Everyone should focus on their mechanics, but I think what people dont quite get is that throughout your progression there are periods where its understanding holding you back, even at the crazy top level this is still true, just as it is at the bronze league, its just that the knowledge you gain before diamond league is generally conceptually easy or often straightforward stuff you pick up almost by osmosis, so focusing on mechanics whilst playing will gain you enough knowledge.
This..
Btw, Grand Master in Latin America server here.
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On May 26 2011 01:10 adwodon wrote:
High diamond player here, started out in bronze and went for the macro approach.
I found it worked 100% macro focus until the diamond league border.
Once you get there it cycles a bit between gaining more understanding then improving your mechanics to ultilize this understanding etc
For instance, I had good enough macro to break diamond league, I would beat diamond zergs / terrans a lot but I couldnt beat protoss, a leap in my understanding of TvP took me to diamond league, then increasing my understanding of TvZ and TvT took my top diamond.
Now I am there I feel like I have 'good' macro but by that I mean relative to my league but in my current position I feel like the key to my next big 'jump' in skill is entirely mechanics, I spent enough time figuring things out and that helped but now im being held back by multitasking and mid-late game macro as opposed to some fundamental flaw in my gameplay.
I think the problem here lies with peoples understanding of what people are saying, I know a tonne of diamond / masters level guys who took the macro till diamond to mean once you're there your mechanics are fine, you macro fine, so theres no need to improve them, which actually leads to a lot of imbalance arguements which are actually just a case of someone losing because the other player had better mechanics.
Everyone should focus on their mechanics, but I think what people dont quite get is that throughout your progression there are periods where its understanding holding you back, even at the crazy top level this is still true, just as it is at the bronze league, its just that the knowledge you gain before diamond league is generally conceptually easy or often straightforward stuff you pick up almost by osmosis, so focusing on mechanics whilst playing will gain you enough knowledge.
Mechanics are the most important part of the game. You can get into Masters just by being able to mkae workers, units and keeping your money low constantly. Once you hit Masters you will have to learn timings as well, but mechanics are still more important in my book.
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Good idea for a thread, I'll play around and post back.
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On May 25 2011 22:49 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 20:34 ButtCraft wrote:
2rax expand: 900 point master terran player here
at 7:00 yields 50 supply, and 2 mules.
Units:
29 scvs
21 marines.
This is a special variant I use in TvZ. I do the normal 2rax expand (expand at 5 marines), but I keep adding in barracks as my income allows while keeping constant scv+marine production. There are 4 marines in production at 7:00.
The upside to this build is an almost 100% winrate vs zerg. I can max out at the 12:30 mark with only marines. Sounds like a 0% winrate if zerg went banelings, which they obviously did when they scouted you.
You can absolutely crush them through sheer numbers and good marine control, even if they make banelings. In fact I want the zerg player to make banelings, because banelings do not have staying power.
The point of the build is to be 100% mineral efficient and keep literally constant pressure (starting with your first 5 marines and 2 scvs for bunker/blocking.
If you have already made 130 marines by 12:30 like you should if you did perfect macro, there is no way for the zerg to have more units than you at that point in the game unless he got several sick baneling splashes.
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Hi, I'm a Silver(SEA)/Platinum(NA) Terran
I was stuck in Bronze just recently (in SEA), but I'd like to post my times anyways.
This is an FE build involving a reactor or a barracks, so really, meant to have slightly low food by now.
49/62 (cc just finished, rax is going down-- stim is halfway) - 7:00
86/86 (got sup blocked D' - 10:00
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On May 26 2011 02:28 GreEny K wrote:
Mechanics are the most important part of the game. You can get into Masters just by being able to mkae workers, units and keeping your money low constantly. Once you hit Masters you will have to learn timings as well, but mechanics are still more important in my book.
Please stop perpetuating this idea that macro alone can get you in to Masters. Macro is indeed very important and can get you pretty far (I would say Gold-Platinum), but Master level players do a lot more than just macro well. I think there are lot of Diamond-Master level players that take a lot of skills and knowledge they have for granted. For example being able to keep your money low, etc., doesn't mean shit when you don't know a cloaked banshee is coming and you aren't prepared. Higher level players definitely have at least an idea what's coming.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On May 26 2011 07:55 ckcornflake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 02:28 GreEny K wrote:
Mechanics are the most important part of the game. You can get into Masters just by being able to mkae workers, units and keeping your money low constantly. Once you hit Masters you will have to learn timings as well, but mechanics are still more important in my book. Please stop perpetuating this idea that macro alone can get you in to Masters. Macro is indeed very important and can get you pretty far (I would say Gold-Platinum), but Master level players do a lot more than just macro well. I think there are lot of Diamond-Master level players that take a lot of skills and knowledge they have for granted. For example being able to keep your money low, etc., doesn't mean shit when you don't know a cloaked banshee is coming and you aren't prepared. Higher level players definitely have at least an idea what's coming.
No, keep on perpetuating this idea, because it is literally true.
Look, Micro and interesting timings and cool compositions might increase your army's damage output by 10-15%, but so would have 10-15% more army and 10-15% more income with a simple composition.
Mechanics, Macro and basic micro will get you into Master's League. I know this because I'm in Diamond League and my macro is terrible compared to Masters players. They may have stronger micro or a better understanding of the game than I do, but it wasn't the case that they used timing and understanding to get into Masters then picked up their superior macro once they got there-- rather, it is the other way around. So, I get outmicroed and countered or am up against a strong composition, but he also simply has more stuff than I do, so nothing else matters.
When I win against lower league players in koth matches, it's rarely because my amazing timing attack or ultimate theorycraft defeats them-- I'm relatively bad at those things. I just have more stuff. To get into Master's League, you need only a few things:
1) Master League Macro
2) A very basic understanding of micro, composition, and timing.
3) Basic Crisis management
You know all those guys who got into Master League because of their theorycraft and insane micro able to overcome their Plat League macro? No? Me neither.
I read somewhere that the first step to become great is realizing that you suck. I know I suck at macro, and that's the reason I'm not in Master's. Is your excuse really that your macro is fine but something else is lacking?
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I like this thread. It gives me some benchmarks to test my BO practice against. But I didn't find the 2 gate robo Expand build I tend to do. G - R - G - N - GG
I fast forwarded a replay against the AI and ended up with
30 Probes
1 Observer
1 Zealot
1 Stalker
3 Sentries
2nd Observer 55%
Nexus 33%
I expanded after I started my 1st observer and put the additional two gates down soon after (just as a sidenote). Can any of the higher ranked players please play this way and give me a benchmark?!
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Awesome initiative. I think this will be great for players to benchmarks their results against, + the benchmarks of pro players executing these builds in replays. It is the best way to quickly improve macro for sure. Great idea OP!
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On May 26 2011 07:55 ckcornflake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 02:28 GreEny K wrote:
Mechanics are the most important part of the game. You can get into Masters just by being able to mkae workers, units and keeping your money low constantly. Once you hit Masters you will have to learn timings as well, but mechanics are still more important in my book. Please stop perpetuating this idea that macro alone can get you in to Masters. Macro is indeed very important and can get you pretty far (I would say Gold-Platinum), but Master level players do a lot more than just macro well. I think there are lot of Diamond-Master level players that take a lot of skills and knowledge they have for granted. For example being able to keep your money low, etc., doesn't mean shit when you don't know a cloaked banshee is coming and you aren't prepared. Higher level players definitely have at least an idea what's coming.
true.
the majority of low-mid master players have medicore mechanics, they just possess the knowhow to execute flavour of the month builds, applying pressure and safely expanding are a given.
mechanics seperate the men from the boys in master/gm, because the knowhow is pretty easy to pick up. a gold player who watches a few dozen pro replays already has the knowhow.
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I think most people think they have 'decent macro' because they keep their money low. I can say that whilst this is a good start, it is often not representative of their macro ability.
Why? Because when people start to bank money, they start to spam production facilities. They over make production, spend more money on it, keep their money low, and have no supply in units.
Terrans also queue units (they all do except pros.) if you ever watched an fpvod of a bw pro gamer, they would be macroing off 8 barracks in TvZ, and would make a production cycle by clicking each barracks and train a marine. And they didn't even queue. It is startling, it is like larvae injection in sc2, except you have option the queue. However, pros tried not to! So this lead to every production round being comletely manual and not queued.
Doesn't DDE macro brood war style? Idk, but it is my opinion that the MBS and easy rally points have made players lazy about their macro (for Terran) and thus, people who are keeping their money low, actually have bad macro.
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On May 28 2011 23:27 Micket wrote:
I think most people think they have 'decent macro' because they keep their money low. I can say that whilst this is a good start, it is often not representative of their macro ability.
Why? Because when people start to bank money, they start to spam production facilities. They over make production, spend more money on it, keep their money low, and have no supply in units.
Terrans also queue units (they all do except pros.) if you ever watched an fpvod of a bw pro gamer, they would be macroing off 8 barracks in TvZ, and would make a production cycle by clicking each barracks and train a marine. And they didn't even queue. It is startling, it is like larvae injection in sc2, except you have option the queue. However, pros tried not to! So this lead to every production round being comletely manual and not queued.
Doesn't DDE macro brood war style? Idk, but it is my opinion that the MBS and easy rally points have made players lazy about their macro (for Terran) and thus, people who are keeping their money low, actually have bad macro.
Sorry that it's a little off-topic, but what do you mean by easy rally points? I don't see anything easier about SC2's rally points. You select the building and right-click a ground location. Nothing changes. Do you mean the way you can rally all your Barracks really quickly by selecting them all at once?
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On May 26 2011 06:31 ButtCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 22:49 Tobberoth wrote:On May 25 2011 20:34 ButtCraft wrote:
2rax expand: 900 point master terran player here
at 7:00 yields 50 supply, and 2 mules.
Units:
29 scvs
21 marines.
This is a special variant I use in TvZ. I do the normal 2rax expand (expand at 5 marines), but I keep adding in barracks as my income allows while keeping constant scv+marine production. There are 4 marines in production at 7:00.
The upside to this build is an almost 100% winrate vs zerg. I can max out at the 12:30 mark with only marines. Sounds like a 0% winrate if zerg went banelings, which they obviously did when they scouted you. You can absolutely crush them through sheer numbers and good marine control, even if they make banelings. In fact I want the zerg player to make banelings, because banelings do not have staying power. The point of the build is to be 100% mineral efficient and keep literally constant pressure (starting with your first 5 marines and 2 scvs for bunker/blocking. If you have already made 130 marines by 12:30 like you should if you did perfect macro, there is no way for the zerg to have more units than you at that point in the game unless he got several sick baneling splashes.
Unless you're sick gosu, it's not hard to be cost-efficient with banes vs marines. You keep up constant pressure, it's not like you come from nowhere with 130 marines. What's more realistic is that you push, zerg shuts it down completely with banes on creep, then drone while you rebuild a marine force. When you come back, the zerg is even stronger economically and still shuts it down just as efficiently. It's only hard to be cost-efficient with banes when the terran is pro-level at splitting or has maruaders etc to take the damage. A big blob of marines melt so fast.
Not saying I could beat you, just saying that your build isn't viable against good zerg players. Marines are dangerous when you went roach or muta, not when you went banes, since banes more or less hardcounter marines. You don't have to have even close to as big of an army as the terran if his marines are pitted against your banes.
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EPT
