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I saw a thread discussing newbies and macro, and realized that probably 95% of <platinum players have no idea how bad their macro really is because of a lack of "set" benchmarks for many builds. So I wanted to ask.....is there any fairly comprehensive build benchmark based on minutes, not supply? Many baddies(like me) see they have X warpgates, X minerals, and X army at X supply, and think they are macroing perfectly, when in fact everything is right....except they are 3 minutes late getting to that point.
Since setting a time is different for all builds, I guess a good mark would be at what point you "transition".
For example, in a 4-gate, it would be the earliest practical time you could have a proxy up, and should be attacking with X units, with X probes, with X minerals/gas in the bank.
For, say, a 1 gate FE, it would be the time at which you have both expos up and running, and you're about to drop your production buildings/decide your tech route.
Banshee rush, the time you should have a cloaked banshee hitting their mineral line.
Obviously I'm not talking about rush timings either. We're talking early zealot/stalker/etc in a 4-gate build, defending from most early pressure, etc. I'm horrible and really have no idea, so maybe some of you pros could chime in with normal timings for the basic build orders for your preferred race. Doesn't have to be too fancy, something like, 4-gate, X minutes, 3 stalkers, 3 zealots, two sentries, 24 workers, proxy pylon up.
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Personally I hate using supply as a measure of time. However, I have found that when warpgate is done your maximum supply allowed should be 42. Furthermore, having 6 of any mix of gateway units during that time means that you'll be able to withstand most early rushes.
As far as using the clock to discuss timings i'm not sure that its really good for that. I use the clock as a measurement of stages of the game. For instance I have decided that 6 minutes is the end of early game and the beginning of mid game. More over late game is decided after a big engagement, which can come between 10-18 minutes! Realizing that its mid game or late game can often let you know when to scout, or when to tech switch. It shouldn't be used to judge when a push is going to come or how much of an army you should have because of these two reasons respectively. First a push won't come as a capped number of units is reached, an agressive player may rally/warp-in the last few remaining units to reach an ideal number or a point in which they feel safe attacking and a passive player may reach the cap and continue to macro to create a stronger push and retain a home base advantage once a first push has been delt with. And, you can't expect a certain number of a certain kind of unit to be out a particular time because it leaves no room for reaction and optimalization based on the game at hand.
So, the game clock is just to get a grasp of what time in the game it is very basically, not to be corresponded with mixes of units.
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On December 22 2010 04:58 OriginalBeast wrote:
Personally I hate using supply as a measure of time. However, I have found that when warpgate is done your maximum supply allowed should be 42. Furthermore, having 6 of any mix of gateway units during that time means that you'll be able to withstand most early rushes.
As far as using the clock to discuss timings i'm not sure that its really good for that. I use the clock as a measurement of stages of the game. For instance I have decided that 6 minutes is the end of early game and the beginning of mid game. More over late game is decided after a big engagement, which can come between 10-18 minutes! Realizing that its mid game or late game can often let you know when to scout, or when to tech switch. It shouldn't be used to judge when a push is going to come or how much of an army you should have because of these two reasons respectively. First a push won't come as a capped number of units is reached, an agressive player may rally/warp-in the last few remaining units to reach an ideal number or a point in which they feel safe attacking and a passive player may reach the cap and continue to macro to create a stronger push and retain a home base advantage once a first push has been delt with. And, you can't expect a certain number of a certain kind of unit to be out a particular time because it leaves no room for reaction and optimalization based on the game at hand.
So, the game clock is just to get a grasp of what time in the game it is very basically, not to be corresponded with mixes of units.
But...you have to have some kind of time related goal...If you're going for, say, cloak banshees then, you should have an optimal time, which barring some early pressure that you don't want that ALTERS your build, that you should be ready. If you go for a 4-gate, then at X time you should be ready UNLESS something else really alters your build, after which your build no longer qualifies as a 4-gate.
Lets say I'm going 4-gate. They go FE. obviously I'm going to want my pressure to hit as fast as safely possible. When is the optimum time a safe 4 gate will be ready, and what kind of units/supply can you reach by that time? I know people use time, I hear about the timings all the time, but I dont know of/can't find any such consolidated resource.
Saying you go for a random build and it changes fluidly per the game is just bs, Obviously drastic changes to your opponents bo will require change on your part, but barring cheese/lack of detection/hard counter issues you should have a build with an end result you're going for. Otherwise, how do you know your build is bad?
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At 8 minutes is when the 3Rax MM+Stim push comes, so for all MUs at that time I want 3 Gates, 2 Gas, a Robo, WG finished, and as many units as possible.
By 12 minutes I want 1 Colossus, 1 Immortal, my Natural up, and around 80+ supply of guys.
By 14 minutes I want min. 2 Colossus, Thermal Lances, Charge going or done, a 3rd base coming and 100+ supply.
By 18 minutes I want HT tech coming and around 180+ supply.
At 20-23 minutes I should have won.
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On December 22 2010 05:20 TheGiz wrote:
At 8 minutes is when the 3Rax MM+Stim push comes
That's really late. I try to hit at 6:15-6:30. That's right when you can have stim + conc shells completed and have about 45 supply. Against Protoss, every second counts, since that could mean an extra immortal or a couple extra sentry FFs.
My benchmarks:
6:00 - have at least 38-40 supply with a 3 rax build vs Protoss.
7:00 - have 2 medivacs and 16 marines heading out to do a 2x octodrop on a close air zerg.
12:30 - be at (or really close) to 200 supply when i do a 4 orbital macro game against zerg.
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Quite insightful OriginalBeast. I agree and disagree about your analysis of the clock though. It does help as you can use it to give you an indication as to when potential problems may arise e.g. a 4-gate should be hitting me at X time, or I scouted Cloaked Banshee play, so I have until Y time to get detection etc. You use it as a measure of the phases of the game, but a missing term here is timing attack, a 4-gate for example, is designed to produce the maximum number of units to outmatch the other player's at a specific time when Terrans and Zerg are likely beginning to go into Lair and Factory Tech rather than producing additional T-1 untis, and overpower that force for the victory. This just happens to come at the very end of the early game and right at the beginning of what define as the mid-game.
I find that the easiest discrepency here is as mentioned, an aggressive player against a defensive player. A number of Zergs like myself are content to scout you, and drone to our hearts content on 1-2 bases more than you and not worry about an army until we need one. Sure I like to have X number of speedlings and Y number of Banelings to stop your MM ball, but that number changes based upon what I scout rather than how long the game has been going on, and this philosophy has focus on the mid-later game as opposed to the belief that "I need my 4-gate to be attacking at 6:00 (random time picked for example). This kind of reactionary play makes it difficult to set specific benchmarks IMO for Zerg as a typical play might be heavy into Sling/Bling/Roach, until I scout some air units or Stargates for example, and then I need a Hydralisk Den, in game A, I might never make one, but in game B, it got build at the 7 minute mark so the benchmark of "When do I need a Hydralisk Den" is comparing apples and oranges.
I know that's slightly off the crux of the matter, but more to the point, is that measuring in supply is a vague concept as supply does not only increase. If you're pressuring your foe, and losing units as you continue to grow your economy, those 10 Marines/Marauders you lose in a heavy fight at 8:00 might set them back, but it makes your build order unmeasureable as you drop 16 supply. In aswer to the OP, yes, if you dig deep enough around here you will see some analysis into build order based on time, and usual with Minerals/Workers factored in. See if you can find the info on the 11 Pool/18 Hatch, one of the newer and more effectively adaptable builds for Zerg, it is compared to both the 14 Hatch/14 Pool, and the 14 Gas/14 Pool I believe in terms of when the buildings "pop" and specific resources/workers at a given time, around 4-6 minutes I believe.
I'm sure there are other threads detailing how this factors in for other races, such as Terran doing a 1-1-1 harass or a BoXeR 2-Rax pressure etc. I know you might have been considering creating a thread like that, but this is a big community, I bet somebody else has done, or started the work here (but maybe not for all the races/builds!). I've said it before and I'll say it again though, in an RTS, you should have a build order, sure, but sticking rigidly to that plan and that plan only leads to problems, you need to be adaptable. Look at all the threads about being stuck in low diamond because the only thing a player did was 6-Pool, 4-Gate, or Marine/SCV all-in for 50 victories but now they cannot beat anyone who has learned how to stop those builds. In the RTS environment, you need to adapt out of a build order if it's not working, or if you chose poorly, and having put too much stock in how "firm" the numbers on a build order should be is a weakness, but a fixable problem, in my opinion.
EDIT: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481
Here is an example of BO analysis for Zerg openings in respect to their advantages with regard to econ builds. Very specific about a number of things with regards to timings, and most is assuming stiking staunchly to the BO until a certain point has been reached such as the first attack. (END EDIT)
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The problem with set times is that it just doesnt work when something happens.
That is also the problem with supply. So supply tends to only be used for the very opening sequences of a build. At that point, it is quite simply easier to use. 9 overlord 14 pool is a lot easier to visualize than smm-mmomething like "1 min 37 seconds make an overlord, then keep making drones until 2 min 13 and make a pool there."
If you are zerg, and you say to yourself: cloaked banshees can only possibly come at the 7 minute mark, and not one bit sooner, so I need detection then. Or you tell yourself they cant possibly come before 38 supply, so thats when you need detection. Sure, thats good, but if your opponent opens up with a 2rax, you are behind, and so is he. And all the supply and set times are now completely useless. If you were relying on those, you dont know what to do.
Thats why most players have other ways of measuring time, that is more reliable past the early game. cloaked banshees will be in your base 4 injects after he starts the starport, at the very soonest. No matter what happend in the game, that will always be reliable.
Most other timings tend t be based on something else. When going for mutas, I want to double gas at my natural while my lair is about halfway done morphing. He opened 2rax, or 2gate pressure? Doesnt matter, the timing stays the same, while the supply and set times change.
When do you take your third? While the first wave of mutas are pinning him back. You dont want to take your third at 10 minutes, and then possibly not have the mutas up yet, and die. You dont want to take your third at 60 supply, and then end up waiting ages before taking it while your mutas are harrassing, because he attacked and you lost some lings, and have to rebuild them first.
A lot of timings are like that. First 100 gas, speedlings, second 100 gas, mutas. Nothing fancy about time or supply, just about how fast you manage to mine gas.
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There was another thread I can't find right now that had a list of what you can have at 7-minutes.
But I think what sm3agol is asking is for the following "standard" builds for a < platinum player what will very good macro yield and what is a good time to push:
Terran:
B.O.: 3-rax, 2-tech, 1-reactor
Goal: 50+ food @ 7-minutes (24-26 SCVs, 6-8 marauders, 8-10 marines, stim 1/2, concussive starting)
Timing: push out at 6:45-7:15
Spending: @ 7minutes gas and minerals both under 100
I would think for Terran you would want to have similar for 1-1-1 and 2-rax FE
For protoss maybe 4-gate, 3-gate robo, 2gate stargate and the expand builds
For zerg maybe 14 hatch 15 pool-sling/bling, fast muta
Giving players a benchmark to go if I am doing this build and have this much stuff at this time then my macro mechanic is working well.
I had low minerals and gas on a 3-rax build with 35 food and nothing qued. I thought it was good macro. It was not.
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On December 22 2010 06:23 Eeryck wrote:
There was another thread I can't find right now that had a list of what you can have at 7-minutes.
But I think what sm3agol is asking is for the following "standard" builds for a < platinum player what will very good macro yield and what is a good time to push:
Terran:
B.O.: 3-rax, 2-tech, 1-reactor
Goal: 50+ food @ 7-minutes (24-26 SCVs, 6-8 marauders, 8-10 marines, stim 1/2, concussive starting)
Timing: push out at 6:45-7:15
Spending: @ 7minutes gas and minerals both under 100
I would think for Terran you would want to have similar for 1-1-1 and 2-rax FE
For protoss maybe 4-gate, 3-gate robo, 2gate stargate and the expand builds
For zerg maybe 14 hatch 15 pool-sling/bling, fast muta
Giving players a benchmark to go if I am doing this build and have this much stuff at this time then my macro mechanic is working well.
I had low minerals and gas on a 3-rax build with 35 food and nothing qued. I thought it was good macro. It was not.
THIS.
This is what I'm talking about. For example, what time does a well executed 4-gate hit and what is a typical supply/unit count at that time? Same for 3 gate robo, 1 gate FE, etc. I want to go 3 gate robo, and if at X time, I only have X supply, and nothing has altered my basic bo, then I know I farked up somewhere, and need to fix it.
I'm toss btw.
I know Zerg is much more fluid, and are often reacting more than initiating, and their larvae mecahnic really changes things up, so this is really for T and P.
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Here are some benchmarks for you. I just made them up of the top of my head so they may need adjustments.
Watch the last game you played and count the following time this happened
You got supply blocked (add 5 each time it happens):
Your mineral or gas got above 500 (add 1 for ever 5 sec):
You were not making a probe/scv (add 1 per 5 sec):
You missed a larva inject (add 1 per 5 sec):
Unit producing structure not making a unit (add 1 per 5 sec):
Add them up
< 5 your pretty good
< 10 need a little work
< 20 need more work
< 30 not doing so hot
< 40 you really got to work on this
< 50 play the ai and only focus on this!
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@Sm3agol - The thing of it is here on TL, it seems you are more likely to get good advice on this type of benchmark by making a thread with a replay with each build. Something like:
[H] Macro optimization 3-gate robo
The have replay vs very easy AI for comments.
Summarize units at 7min and 12 minutes and ask what else you could have had out.
TL does not seem to value this type of repository of information, I think the reason is once you understand the bumps and what they cost you having x at y time has less value, but instead realizing I could have more if I "smooth out this bump" with the general guidelines in order of importance:
1. Never get supply blocked
2. Always make workers
3. Only build structures when you are constantly producing
4. Keeping money low means having the right timing on your gas also
5. Time upgrades to correspond when you push
This Day9 shows the process of tuning a build:
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4138469/
If things are smooth and you always have the right gas/minerals to make something then you will have the maximum out.
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On December 22 2010 05:37 out4blood wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 05:20 TheGiz wrote:
At 8 minutes is when the 3Rax MM+Stim push comes That's really late. I try to hit at 6:15-6:30. That's right when you can have stim + conc shells completed and have about 45 supply. Against Protoss, every second counts, since that could mean an extra immortal or a couple extra sentry FFs. My benchmarks: 6:00 - have at least 38-40 supply with a 3 rax build vs Protoss. 7:00 - have 2 medivacs and 16 marines heading out to do a 2x octodrop on a close air zerg. 12:30 - be at (or really close) to 200 supply when i do a 4 orbital macro game against zerg.
Some of those timings seem slightly 'exaggerated'. 200 supply before the 13 mark ever? Nope not happening even if you build 10 orbitals. From my experience it is pretty difficult to max out off 2 base before the 18 minute mark. Might be different for imba terran I guess.
Also a lot of Terrans will mass up their MM until the 9-13 minute mark on one base (below diamond this was all they did to me lol) and attack with something like 90-100 food. It sounds nooby but its really hard to fight off and always killed me nearly every time until I got a high enough MMR that I started facing the Terrans who would do nothing but rush banshees 
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If someone tells you a magic number, X amount of units ready at the Y minute mark, it doesnt really help you improve much. You can look at your own build, and see that you have less. What then?
Then you go and watch your replay, and check the little things. The ones mentioned above:
Was I always making workers?
Was I getting supply capped?
Was I spending my money?
And others, like:
Was I muling/chronoing/vomiting?
Was I making things on time? (did the overlord get made at 100 minerals, or 140 minerals? Did the gateway go down at 150 minerals, or did the probe start moving to build it at 150 minerals?)
And so on.
You look at yourself playing, you find out what little bumps you have, and you make sure they dont happen anymore.
Thing is: That first step of getting a random number of potentially optimal units at a random point in time, well you dont need it.
You can just directly go into one of your replays, watch it, and check if you were doing everything on time or not, and if you were forgetting anything.
Goal: 50+ food @ 7-minutes (24-26 SCVs, 6-8 marauders, 8-10 marines, stim 1/2, concussive starting)
Timing: push out at 6:45-7:15
Spending: @ 7minutes gas and minerals both under 100
This is a terrible goal as far as improving goes.
New goal: never getting supply capped - never going above 150 minerals/100 gas - never having idle SCVs or structures.
If your goal is to hit a set amount of units at a set time, well ok, you can do that.
But if instead, your goal is to play perfectly, well hey, if its possible to have this set amount of units at that time, you will still have them, but also, if its possible to have more, then you will actually have more! isnt that great? Plus, you can apply it to absolutely any build with any race, at any point in time during the replay, without having to have prior knowledge of what someone else has set as an optimal unit mix at x amount of time.
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On December 22 2010 08:07 morimacil wrote:If someone tells you a magic number, X amount of units ready at the Y minute mark, it doesnt really help you improve much. You can look at your own build, and see that you have less. What then? Then you go and watch your replay, and check the little things. The ones mentioned above: Was I always making workers? Was I getting supply capped? Was I spending my money? And others, like: Was I muling/chronoing/vomiting? Was I making things on time? (did the overlord get made at 100 minerals, or 140 minerals? Did the gateway go down at 150 minerals, or did the probe start moving to build it at 150 minerals?) And so on. You look at yourself playing, you find out what little bumps you have, and you make sure they dont happen anymore. Thing is: That first step of getting a random number of potentially optimal units at a random point in time, well you dont need it. You can just directly go into one of your replays, watch it, and check if you were doing everything on time or not, and if you were forgetting anything. Show nested quote +
Goal: 50+ food @ 7-minutes (24-26 SCVs, 6-8 marauders, 8-10 marines, stim 1/2, concussive starting)
Timing: push out at 6:45-7:15
Spending: @ 7minutes gas and minerals both under 100
This is a terrible goal as far as improving goes. New goal: never getting supply capped - never going above 150 minerals/100 gas - never having idle SCVs or structures. If your goal is to hit a set amount of units at a set time, well ok, you can do that. But if instead, your goal is to play perfectly, well hey, if its possible to have this set amount of units at that time, you will still have them, but also, if its possible to have more, then you will actually have more! isnt that great? Plus, you can apply it to absolutely any build with any race, at any point in time during the replay, without having to have prior knowledge of what someone else has set as an optimal unit mix at x amount of time.
While I absolutely agree that you are correct. From the beginners perspective, without some type of X units at Y time benchmark it is not really easy to understand what each slip up is costing you. I used to think oh I was only supply block for 4-5 seconds, no big deal. I did not realize that it was costing me 2-3 food of army for an early push.
For anyone that can take it at face value and just never get supply blocked, never miss a mule, always produce just because they are told so that is great. For me and for a lot of other beginners, without a value on what you lose by having these little errors it is easy to say, I am only making small mistakes, but my money is low, I don't que and I always make workers with only very very small supply blocks. Therefore, my macro is good. When the simple truth is these are exactly the things that make macro BAD.
X units at Y time as a benchmark for a new player will help them understand the cost of their mistakes as they get better and serve as a means to value mistakes to encourage practice. This one little fact pointed out to me in a replay analysis, flipped a switch and my macro got much better because I valued things differently.
Again, after you understand why crisp smooth timing is important, everything you say is true and correct. But you need some way to teach and prove it is correct before the beginner gets to that point.
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What I did was just play a whole series of games against very easy AI where my only goal was to macro and max out as fast as possible. After I was able to do that without getting supply blocked and without forgetting anything, I practiced the same thing but against very hard AI, so that I would have to defend attacks every few minutes while still macroing.
Once I felt that I had a good replay example of the build I wanted to execute, I went back and watched the replay, recording my total supply and number of workers every minute from about 8 minutes onwards. This then became the benchmark that I try to aim for in all my games using that build or that race.
As an example, going MM + Tanks as Terran I can get maxed just before the 16 minute mark with about 70 workers. This is not perfect macro and I'm sure pros could do it much faster, but at least it gives me something to aim for when I am playing. Obviously there will be games where these goals become irrelevant due to harrassment or other disruptions, but if I lose a game and then notice I only had 40 workers when I was supposed to have 50 then I know I let my macro slip at some point.
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Well, you have realized a huge fault in the strategy community.
The fact is the vast majority neither care nor are competent enough to think that analytically about a build. Little chance this will change much anytime soon.
You'll even see senior members of the community arguing that stuff like knowing the exact timing of things does not matter, and then dismissing the topic and closing threads: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150573
Still, there are better threads that pop up where people care about stuff like this. Here is a pretty simple example...shows bo for 4gate with unit timing benchmark:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=177569
Thread starter gets a few "good build, good thread" comments among the crowd, then it is lost to time.
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Morimacil said in his first post what I was trying to get across (with more specifics but less detail) quite well, even if it was a bit off the OP.
@Sm3agol
THIS.
This is what I'm talking about. For example, what time does a well executed 4-gate hit and what is a typical supply/unit count at that time? Same for 3 gate robo, 1 gate FE, etc
The thing is, if you're doing a 1 gate FE, you aren't going to be playing the offensive, like, AT ALL, unless you aren’t pressured. The same is the case with a Zerg 14 Hatch/14 Pool. You fend off any attack, Macro up, and by that point, there is no firm way to use the clock to appropriately time something as you've already reached the malleable point around 6-9 minutes when everything has stabilized and you have survived into thriving with your expo. What I mean is, the BO is complete at that point, and your entire game for each race is Toss: build a huge deathball with 1-3 Collosi and attack (add air as needed or desired), Zerg: enormous Roach/Bling/Sling push, hatch a Muta flock and harass until you reach critical mass, grab 3-5 bases and tech up for the final push, or counter their desperate push and move in for the kill.
@Geovu
Some of those timings seem slightly 'exaggerated'. 200 supply before the 13 mark ever? Nope not happening even if you build 10 orbitals.
There is a 4 OC on 1 Base (What I will call and All-in) or perhaps it is a 2 base tactic (I havn't seen it for a week or so), but it does hit 200/200 around 12:30-13:00 IF IT IS NEVER HARASSED. Gamewinning, but you have to have a lazy, passive, and non-scouting player for it to get that far IMO.
Beyond all my analysis (like it or not, good or bad that's what it is), there is one more solid thought here.
On December 22 2010 10:33 Eeryck Wrote: While I absolutely agree that you are correct. From the beginners perspective, without some type of X units at Y time benchmark it is not really easy to understand what each slip up is costing you. I used to think oh I was only supply block for 4-5 seconds, no big deal. I did not realize that it was costing me 2-3 food of army for an early push... (ellipsis here to define skipping of text to reach another salient point) X units at Y time as a benchmark for a new player will help them understand the cost of their mistakes as they get better and serve as a means to value mistakes to encourage practice. This one little fact pointed out to me in a replay analysis, flipped a switch and my macro got much better because I valued things differently
I like that analysis, if nothing else, TL should be here to give advice and help each other out (Not everybody is Gosu, or even knows what that means), and if somebody says, "Why should I be worried about a Baneling Bust?" or "A Colosus is one unit, it can't be that game changing," we should dig in and help. Kudos to Eeryck for getting to the heart of the post, and even Sm3agol for asking the question.
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