EPT[D] So You Think You Can Macro? - Page 4
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Vod.kaholic
United States1052 Posts
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
If 2 people do the exact same build it should be fairly obvious to the non good macroing player that his macro is not doing good. Say 10 depo 12 rax 13 gas 15 factory/depo ~20 starport but I realize the second my port is done that I have enough minerals to expand but then I look at the other person who did the exact same thing you will see maybe he doesn't have enough money to expand because he kept making scvs and marines while these other buildings were coming online. In short a clear indicator that you are not macroing well is simply looking at your trust fund. Did I macro well this game? How much money do I have right now? 500minerals. Well I guess I didn't macro well. | ||
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djdoodoo
United Kingdom192 Posts
I usually have 53 food. 1 more marine. 1 less marauder. About 4 less scvs.. Cheers | ||
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Mindflow
Korea (South)320 Posts
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djdoodoo
United Kingdom192 Posts
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 11 2011 10:37 Mindflow wrote: 3-rax all-ins isnt a very good build at all vs P nowadays in my opinon, Due to FF's being so easily to defends narrow ramps. Might as well play a macro game and hope for the best You're totally missing the point of the thread. Or trolling, I can't tell which. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 11 2011 10:19 terranghost wrote: Judging just from the example you have about day9 vs his friend. If 2 people do the exact same build it should be fairly obvious to the non good macroing player that his macro is not doing good. Say 10 depo 12 rax 13 gas 15 factory/depo ~20 starport but I realize the second my port is done that I have enough minerals to expand but then I look at the other person who did the exact same thing you will see maybe he doesn't have enough money to expand because he kept making scvs and marines while these other buildings were coming online. In short a clear indicator that you are not macroing well is simply looking at your trust fund. Did I macro well this game? How much money do I have right now? 500minerals. Well I guess I didn't macro well. That's misleading. If you're not doing a good job of timing your buildings, or forgetting a probe for a few seconds a few times, you can have really low money, but those little mistakes are the difference between you having what you have and what you have plus an expansion, or 1/1 ups, or having your gateways down earlier and a higher unit count which lets you hold a push. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 11 2011 10:36 djdoodoo wrote: So can you post your build order or the replays to your version of things please. I'm struggling to get the same as you when doing the 3 rax stim + concussion. Then we can watch how you do things which would be helpful. I usually have 53 food. 1 more marine. 1 less marauder. About 4 less scvs.. Cheers I can't find the replay I did to get the baseline, here's one I did RQ. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137673-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war I didn't get the same numbers, either, but I did mess up a few times. As a result of sending an SCV earlier than I should have, I delayed my OC by a few seconds, and that first marine as well. Around 4:20 I accidentily qued an scv w/o realizing, and as a result had a much later 3rd rax. Around 6 minutes I forget an SCV, so I lose about 1 there, and I lose probably a half of an SCV @ 7:00, so in conjunction with the late OC I lost probably 2 SCV's due to inefficiency. I also accidentily que'd a marine in my tech lab rax delaying some marines and the next rauder, so I feel confident I lost at least 1 marauder due to that. So I ended up with 58 food (up from original), 1 less marauder than in the original (explained above), equal marines (might have actually had 2 more this time w/o that blunder), 3 less SCV's. I lost 2 due to inefficiency, as stated, and I may have been counting the one in production in the original, not sure, as well as conc being delayed a few seconds. 3 pretty small errors left me (possibly) 3 units short and 3 SCV's short of what I could have, but yet I was at 45 min 37 gas when that example was done. This is a good example of why someone can think they're macroing excellent, but yet not be, really. Hope that helped, sorry I didn't go through and do it again untill I got it dead on, but bones is on, and I'm lazy. Peace. | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
but one person has high money and the other doesn't then obviously one person is not macroing Part of macroing is building structures so you can spend you money anyway. | ||
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 11 2011 11:52 Arisen wrote: I can't find the replay I did to get the baseline, here's one I did RQ. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137673-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war I didn't get the same numbers, either, but I did mess up a few times. As a result of sending an SCV earlier than I should have, I delayed my OC by a few seconds, and that first marine as well. Around 4:20 I accidentily qued an scv w/o realizing, and as a result had a much later 3rd rax. Around 6 minutes I forget an SCV, so I lose about 1 there, and I lose probably a half of an SCV @ 7:00, so in conjunction with the late OC I lost probably 2 SCV's due to inefficiency. I also accidentily que'd a marine in my tech lab rax delaying some marines and the next rauder, so I feel confident I lost at least 1 marauder due to that. So I ended up with 58 food (up from original), 1 less marauder than in the original (explained above), equal marines (might have actually had 2 more this time w/o that blunder), 3 less SCV's. I lost 2 due to inefficiency, as stated, and I may have been counting the one in production in the original, not sure, as well as conc being delayed a few seconds. 3 pretty small errors left me (possibly) 3 units short and 3 SCV's short of what I could have, but yet I was at 45 min 37 gas when that example was done. This is a good example of why someone can think they're macroing excellent, but yet not be, really. Hope that helped, sorry I didn't go through and do it again untill I got it dead on, but bones is on, and I'm lazy. Peace. tried this build a few times and got 56 supply 25 scvs 8 marauders (with 1 80% done) 9 marines (with 1 99% done) at the 7:00 minute mark. Could've squeezed in a few more scvs but I can't afford to produce scvs and build from all 3 rax without getting supply blocked so I cut a little bit. LaLush recently posted his macro thread where he measures the mineral income per # of workers and I think around 19 is where you start to notice the diminishing returns. I had 21 mining so that's probably a good area to stop at and just throw down my nat cc while I'm trading units. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-188173.jpg) I think it's also interesting to note that the first time I tried this build, I had a slightly bigger army (8 marauder 10 rine) but 4 less workers. The optimal 3 rax build is probably somewhere in between (23-24 scvs) as I had to cut my army size slightly in order to make those 25 scvs. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 11 2011 12:22 terranghost wrote: The idea is if you have 2 people doing the same build order but one person has high money and the other doesn't then obviously one person is not macroing Part of macroing is building structures so you can spend you money anyway. Obviously, if one persons money is really high, then yes, they need to improve, but I think you don't really understand this... If you have low money, it doesn't mean you have can't improve your macro allot. Look at the replay I just posted. My money was pretty damn low the entire game, but you know what? I could have had 3 more units and 2 more SCV's just by doing 2 or 3 things a tiny bit different. That's can be a big fucking deal. That could mean the difference between you breaking your opponent, and just taking a ton of damage. That can mean the difference between you barely holding a push and losing 15 SCV's. Also take the 3 gate expand example for a minute. Just by changing up one thing meant the difference in me having more stuff and an expansion a minute earlier, even though we had "low money" each time. There's more to your macro than just your money being low. Yes, money being high is the biggest indicator. Yes, it's the easiest fix. No, that's not all you need for having good macro. I can que 4-5 units as a terran and have 0 money, but those 5 qued units aren't helping me at all, and I could have planted an expo with that wasted money. If you planted every gateway you had at 100 minerals (pretty low money) you could have probably gotten maxed like a minute and a half faster. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 11 2011 12:56 infinity21 wrote: tried this build a few times and got 56 supply 25 scvs 8 marauders (with 1 80% done) 9 marines (with 1 99% done) at the 7:00 minute mark. Could've squeezed in a few more scvs but I can't afford to produce scvs and build from all 3 rax without getting supply blocked so I cut a little bit. LaLush recently posted his macro thread where he measures the mineral income per # of workers and I think around 19 is where you start to notice the diminishing returns. I had 21 mining so that's probably a good area to stop at and just throw down my nat cc while I'm trading units. I think it's also interesting to note that the first time I tried this build, I had a slightly bigger army (8 marauder 10 rine) but 4 less workers. The optimal 3 rax build is probably somewhere in between (23-24 scvs) as I had to cut my army size slightly in order to make those 25 scvs. Cool idea, cutting SCV's to have an optimal push while having maximum mining and getting your CC down. Posted this as SCV cut 3 rax. Cheers. | ||
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redFF
United States3910 Posts
On February 10 2011 05:26 Kaitlin wrote: I'm not ingame, but I know as a Bronze protoss, I'm generally in mid-40's food by 7:00, which seems to exceed most other bronzes that I have checked. As Terran, lately, I've been at 50-52 unless I screw up, which I haven't seen anyone in bronze compare with yet. Oh, and that includes upgrades like Stim and Concussive. Honestly, if you have so much better macro than other bronze players, why are you in bronze and not plat or diamond? | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 11 2011 13:20 SupastaR wrote: Honestly, if you have so much better macro than other bronze players, why are you in bronze and not plat or diamond? If you don't have something constructive to say go troll somewhere else please. | ||
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Hurricane Sponge
868 Posts
Thanks, Arisen. | ||
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djdoodoo
United Kingdom192 Posts
7:00 54 food 31 SCV's 8 Marauders 7 Marines Concussive finishes at 7 minutes, stim already done This is without an orbital command. | ||
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 11 2011 14:38 djdoodoo wrote: For the 3rax Stim timing attack you might want to mention that you didn't get an orbital command because I just did a test and with orbital command tops you can get in 7 minutes is 28 on 1 base. 7:00 54 food 31 SCV's 8 Marauders 7 Marines Concussive finishes at 7 minutes, stim already done This is without an orbital command. I did get an orbital command? I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your post, my apologies. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 11 2011 14:44 Ryder. wrote: Is there any chance whoever got to 58 supply with the 3 Gate sentry expand upload their build order? I have been using one and I searched and cant find any more, so I want to check if I'm using an inefficient build or if im merely just not perfecting the efficient build I have, since I havent been able to get over 51 supply. That was me, I didn't use a build order, as I dont use this because I don't play toss. I just did the standard 13 gate, 14 gas, core as soon as gate is done, got a second gas as I was putting up the core, and made constant chronoboosted probes, as well as placing my gates as soon as possible, making primarily sentries, making zealots when I didn't have the gas. I did it a few times to get a sense of when I could place my gates so that I didn't interrupt unit production while being as fast as possible. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On February 11 2011 09:58 Vod.kaholic wrote: Whenever I go any version of 3-gate robo I always seem to end up with a massive lull in unit production between 6:20 and 7:00, and my probe count doesn't pick up very much in that timeframe either. What sorts of things should I be doing to overcome that? Like, how should I time my gas and my gateway production before and after finishing warp research? How do you better people do it? The first question is: do you really want to 3 gate robo? You cannot realistically make use of 3 gates, a robo, make probes, use chrono boost, etc. while doing anything else. So basically you're either making 3 gates just in case because you need it to hold vs particular timing attacks, or you plan to go kill them with the extra gate in particular situations. Here's a more or less optimal 2 gate robo. There's really no way you could improve upon it without sacrificing somewhere else. Without sacrificing early game safety (still requires a great deal of micro to beat proxy rax shenanigans, but certainly doable): http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=188188 3 gate robo. Pretty much rapes 2 rax expand on close rush distances, since their econ won't kick in until they are dead. (less refined, I haven't really done this build recently, but notice how the 3 gates finish when warp gate finishes): http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=188189 There's really no point in continuing probes past 22 if you're doing something as all-in as this. Of course you could just add the 3rd gate and make a nexus or something like the first replay, if you feel like that's better. | ||
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