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Guys, you do not need cannons to defend this rush. You can defend it with a standard 3Gate Sentry expo build if you chrono WG all the way, and it's not hard to scout.
As soon as you see a quick pool/gas, begin saving Chronoboost, using 2 MAX on Probes. Send your scouting Probe back in around 20 food to see if the Zerg is continuing to mine gas. If they are, that should be a tell-tale sign, not to mention you can find the Roach Warren easily with this build, as there are no Lings or Queen to deny scouting.
Once you see it coming, cut Probes to get your 2nd/3rd Gates faster, then Chrono once on a Sentry (maybe 2x in close positions, not sure) and use the rest on Warpgate. By the time the rush arrives, you should be able to use 2 Forcefields to delay it, and begin a complete walloff with either a Pylon or a Forge.
This gives your Warpgate Tech enough time to finish, and you can Warp in another Sentry to cut his forces in half as he moves up the ramp and a pair of Stalkers to deal damage. From there you are so far ahead in workers and he literally cant get past your wall. You've won the game, and didn't even have to varaiate far from a standard opening. You can walk down your ramp, simcity and expand like usual.
This build definitely punishes players who blindly Chrono Probes all the way and don't scout it, but it's far from unbeatable even with a standard opening.
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There's no point in getting fancy. Seeing an -early- roach attack coming (pretty damn easily scout-able) means drop a forge and 2 cannons and you win.
It's the right response to this rush just like it's the right response to the 3 roach @ 3:33 rush. With a probe in the enemy base you will see it coming in time to stop it. The reason you don't need to worry about getting fancy is simple - these all-in's are game enders for zerg if they can't punch through your wall. Block the ramp completely with a pylon instead of a zealot and laugh as the cannons tear them up, then roll over them as your warpgates come online. They will be so far behind there is literally nothing they can do. You can theoretically stop these rushes with a sentry or two but why even risk it when you have such an easy and virtually guaranteed way to stop them?
Hell, 2 cannons will stop a well performed 4:45 7RR all-in with drones AND a queen for gods sake. They are super-effective  .
Now, proxy roach warrens get a bit trickier, but you can usually tell what's coming simply by a lack of drones, early gas, and no expo. Also, a proxied warren slows any RR by a decent amount of seconds, giving you time to have more defenses and units in place. I'm still fiddling with the idea of proxy warren surprise attacks, but the warning signs are just too obvious to a good protoss enemy and once those cannons go up the Z may as well just quit.
In any event, you'll steal some easy wins with a strategy like this - but I'd argue those games could have been just as easily won a few minutes prior using a fast 3RR. If they let 3 roaches punch a hole in their wall after 5:00+, you could have trashed him at 4:00. It's proof of the effectiveness of these sorts of rushes vs people who don't know the timings and danger they are in, but it is an absolutely roflfail strategy vs anyone who knows the proper responses.
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pls dont abuse larva injection system.idont like this kind of strats anymore.and it is very counterable.i am a toss player and one cannon or crono centry kill this.
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Small little add-on, if i may, a good trick to getting ahead in tech early in the game while doing this BO, take ur first 2 zerglings u make and try to deny pylon setdowns or kill off a few of the probes in the enemy toss mineral line, cuz by this point i'm sure they don't have a zealot out, depending on the type of build he/she is going for. But the best thing to do is to deny the pylon from blocking too much(even if its only for a few seconds, every second counts).
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On March 05 2011 05:21 Ncinerate wrote:
There's no point in getting fancy. Seeing an -early- roach attack coming (pretty damn easily scout-able) means drop a forge and 2 cannons and you win.
If you scout it, it's pretty easy to defend without cannons and be further ahead. Just wall your ramp completely with your 2nd or 3rd gateway and make stalkers. If Z throws all his units at your wall, you'll kill most of his stuff before he can kill a gate, and you'll have warpgates done in time to warp in zealots to clean up any leftovers. This cheese is only dangerous if you don't see it coming or don't know how to respond.
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I actually haven't seen this on the ladder for a while. I think now that people know how to defend it, its popularity has fizzled.
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This build got me through gold to high platinum in about 3 days! Such a great strategy, and I love love love bathing in those Protoss QQ tears as they call it cheese as if they weren't preparing their 4 gate for a minute later! Obviously I don't use this build every game as I don't want to stunt my growth as a macro player, but it sure is nice to have this in my back pocket when I'm playing my Friends 1v1! Basically it forces Protoss players to be a little more defensive and stop being so damn greedy EVERY time they face a Zerg!
Thanks a lot for this build it definitely helped!
(ps I am not trying to say this build is unbeatable but it
sure is nice, especially in the lower leagues where I am)
I also wouldn't call this a TOTAL all in. If I see a forge and cannons up I simply halt ling production, expand immediately, and pump drones. Don't even attack; save the units and switch to a macro style. You can still win.
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So i'm a 2200 Diamond, so nothing really high.
I did this for my last 10 ZvP, and i won my last 10 ZvP (against even 3200 Diamond Protoss).
When i scout with the overlord and i see a standard Protoss build with a gate and a cyb.core at the ramp, i know it's basicaly gg. The funniest thing that happened is when I had a 3000 protoss saying "Nice cheating, you're gonna get banned" when he saw the 25 lings coming after the 3 roachs.
If i see a forge at the ramp, i juste kill the probe with my first 2 lings, cancel the roach warren and make tons of drones while the protoss make tons of canons instead of gateways/probes
If i see a forge at the natural, i just double expand. Something like 15 Pool, 21 Hatch, 22 Hatch.
So..So far, it worked wonder. Thanks.
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3RR is not a good build I wouldnt advice any zerg to use this. You are relying on your opponent being bad and thats no way to improve your game. But sure, you can cheese every once in a while just for the lulz.
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On March 18 2011 23:22 koveras wrote:
3RR is not a good build I wouldnt advice any zerg to use this. You are relying on your opponent being bad and thats no way to improve your game. But sure, you can cheese every once in a while just for the lulz.
plz give more quantifiable proof before you spew shit out
I played a few random custom games against a few Protoss players on Xel Naga Caverns. None are really worth uploading except MAYBE one, but even then it's meh. The effectiveness of the build can still be seen in it.
I sent a drone up initially to see if he was pulling any proxy pylon business (I did the build against him the game before), and that drone scout timing caused my third roach to be off by a few seconds. also mistimed metabolic boost a bit I think, should have gotten that before my initial lings.
Anyway, this works pretty well with the current PvZ style that people play these days. The next time I play a Protoss on ladder I'll save the replay and upload it (I'm playing mostly high diamond/low masters players)
Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/1826
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REPLAY 1: http://drop.sc/1827 Me vs 3100 Master
Lost this one. He saw it coming and countered with 1 gate void ray and cannon at the ramp. I should have had an overlord to snipe the zealots guarding the choke to mitigate so many casualties.
REPLAY 2: http://drop.sc/1830 Me vs another 3100 Master
This time I win. He obviously has faced this before and opts to stick with gateway units with cannons to supplement. There a few blunders by both of us this game, and I could make excuses all day as to why I played kinda shitty but I'll just say that we both could use some refinement. Either way, this replay shows fairly well the potential of the build if executed properly
I plan on gathering up a few more replays and I'll upload them all tonight or tomorrowish for anybody that wants 'em
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 19 2011 06:03 Bobo_XIII wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 23:22 koveras wrote:
3RR is not a good build I wouldnt advice any zerg to use this. You are relying on your opponent being bad and thats no way to improve your game. But sure, you can cheese every once in a while just for the lulz. plz give more quantifiable proof before you spew shit out I played a few random custom games against a few Protoss players on Xel Naga Caverns. None are really worth uploading except MAYBE one, but even then it's meh. The effectiveness of the build can still be seen in it. I sent a drone up initially to see if he was pulling any proxy pylon business (I did the build against him the game before), and that drone scout timing caused my third roach to be off by a few seconds. also mistimed metabolic boost a bit I think, should have gotten that before my initial lings. Anyway, this works pretty well with the current PvZ style that people play these days. The next time I play a Protoss on ladder I'll save the replay and upload it (I'm playing mostly high diamond/low masters players) Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/1826
Its very simple, you are cutting drones and expanding late to do a powerfull early push in the hopes of winning the game right there. Because you are not able to get a few lings out to intercept the scouting probe makes it so that your roach warren will always be scouted unless your opponent is bad/lazy. Than protoss only has to counter this build, take the macro advantage and win. This can be done by throwing down a forge and make a photo cannon or having an early robo bay and chrono out an immortal and surrounding it with probes. I played more than a few games using this build and when this gained in popularity protoss got smart and this strat stopped working entirely.
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In my relatively limited experience, perhaps against players not executing this properly, if you scout it in time you can blow chronos on Warpgate Research + Sentries, get 3 gateways asap, and FF your rap constantly until you can break any attempted contain.
At most, you're going to lose your gateway (or your core, but thats why you dont build your core on the edge), but thats not a sufficient amount of damage to put the zerg back on even ground, let alone ahead.
Granted, it does require that you save chronos for a certain sector of time, which could be fairly major if you miss a 14hatch or something (although how you'd manage that I have no idea).
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Congrats on 2-0'ing Tyler wzp! Game one you used this build and narrowly escaped the void ray. The refinement you put into it gave you those extra seconds to stop the void from popping. I think in the 2nd game Tyler just played badly, like really bad. I think he didn't know the map and canceled his gateway like 15 seconds into it and remade it. Should have done the build twice. lol. Would have absolutely destroyed him the 2nd time because of the gateway canceling blunder costing him 15-20 seconds.
Its nice to have at least an option to punish Toss that think they can 3 gate, mass an army, get an expo, upgrade and tech all at once. FFS!
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On March 11 2011 07:28 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 05:21 Ncinerate wrote:
There's no point in getting fancy. Seeing an -early- roach attack coming (pretty damn easily scout-able) means drop a forge and 2 cannons and you win.
If you scout it, it's pretty easy to defend without cannons and be further ahead. Just wall your ramp completely with your 2nd or 3rd gateway and make stalkers. If Z throws all his units at your wall, you'll kill most of his stuff before he can kill a gate, and you'll have warpgates done in time to warp in zealots to clean up any leftovers. This cheese is only dangerous if you don't see it coming or don't know how to respond.
kcdc, the problem with this is that roaches w/ a overlord to spot the high ground take out your cyber core before you ever get a chance to get WG research or stalkers. whenever i play vs a well timed roach/ling rush it hits right as i am getting my second sentry (zealot > sentry > 2nd sentry) so i have enough energy for 1 force field, 2 if i chrono boost the sentry, but during this entire time the zerg, instead of breaking the zealot and running in with speedlings, focuses down the cybernetics core and what are you left with? 1 zeal and 2 sentries, maybe one stalker. and two gates that have just come online (which wont help vs the mass speedlings that are rushing into your mineral line.
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On March 05 2011 05:21 Ncinerate wrote:There's no point in getting fancy. Seeing an -early- roach attack coming (pretty damn easily scout-able) means drop a forge and 2 cannons and you win. It's the right response to this rush just like it's the right response to the 3 roach @ 3:33 rush. With a probe in the enemy base you will see it coming in time to stop it. The reason you don't need to worry about getting fancy is simple - these all-in's are game enders for zerg if they can't punch through your wall. Block the ramp completely with a pylon instead of a zealot and laugh as the cannons tear them up, then roll over them as your warpgates come online. They will be so far behind there is literally nothing they can do. You can theoretically stop these rushes with a sentry or two but why even risk it when you have such an easy and virtually guaranteed way to stop them? Hell, 2 cannons will stop a well performed 4:45 7RR all-in with drones AND a queen for gods sake. They are super-effective . Now, proxy roach warrens get a bit trickier, but you can usually tell what's coming simply by a lack of drones, early gas, and no expo. Also, a proxied warren slows any RR by a decent amount of seconds, giving you time to have more defenses and units in place. I'm still fiddling with the idea of proxy warren surprise attacks, but the warning signs are just too obvious to a good protoss enemy and once those cannons go up the Z may as well just quit. In any event, you'll steal some easy wins with a strategy like this - but I'd argue those games could have been just as easily won a few minutes prior using a fast 3RR. If they let 3 roaches punch a hole in their wall after 5:00+, you could have trashed him at 4:00. It's proof of the effectiveness of these sorts of rushes vs people who don't know the timings and danger they are in, but it is an absolutely roflfail strategy vs anyone who knows the proper responses.
WTF how do zergs proxy buildings...
User was warned for this post
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^ Build a hatch...then cancel and immediately build roach warren
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I hadn't done this in awhile but I was in a weird mood so I just won 5 games with it. Pretty hilarious how few people know how to prepare for it still, I throw down the roach warren right in front of their probe and it still kills them.
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I'm high Diamond/low Masters (been winning a lot so I'm playing masters players now :-) finally)
I recently beat this build, or at least something similar, in the form of a 3rr w/ speedlings. I just Forge FE and made cannons. Cannons are the counter to every Zerg cheese as Protoss. And since you will have a huge boost of minerals from the two nexus, you can easily plop down 3-4 cannons. Once 4 cannons are out and you have 4-5 units as toss, there is no way a 1 basing Zerg is gonna touch your natural or your main (Assuming you walled off so he cant ramp rush you).
It was on Typhoon Peaks. and he got into my main but i just ran my probes to my cannons at my natural and let my 4-5 zealots clean up his lings. Ya I lost a lot of probes, probably 15 or so, but I still had more than his 14. And remember, you only need 1 geyser early on, just for cyber WG research and a healthy stalker flow. If Zerg is All-in, just spam 3 gates, a cybercore, probes, zealots and cannons. And chrono the zealots, then laugh at his frustration.
The most important thing with Forge FE is knowing what Zerg is making. Watch TT1 who loves this style and he always has a probe scouting to count expos (even possible hidden ones), drone saturation, and unit composition. And once he loses the probe he just sends another one. Remember you will have a hefty supply of probes with this build so just keep scouting, its better than dying to cheese (until ling speed finishes, he cant deny probes so remember that).
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On April 09 2011 05:16 Treemonkeys wrote:
I hadn't done this in awhile but I was in a weird mood so I just won 5 games with it. Pretty hilarious how few people know how to prepare for it still, I throw down the roach warren right in front of their probe and it still kills them.
Most people who want to allin on ladder don't play zerg - the other races have better allins. That means that most protosses on ladder probably don't know about the zerg allins that do exist, since they almost never encounter it.
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EPT
