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UPDATE -
after so much testing of the build (about 4000 or more games) , and thinking about it a lot, i have found a better way to say if its viable to make the build in a game or not, on 4 player maps, also some improved transitions ill write down.
First off, it is very important to remember that there is no drone scout on this build, because of that you cannot know the position of the opponent. on maps that this build is viable that is is for 4 players, like metalopolis, slag pits and shattered temple, it is better to drone up to 13 supply, and if there is no probe scout arriving at that time, its more safe to do a FE build than this rush, however if the scout does arrive around 13 supply, it is most likely that he is indeed in the closest position and this build becomes highly powerful.
TRANSITIONS (yep, finally)
I have mentioned before a banning transition, but it seems that sentries are able to make it in time for that so there will not be an all in banning after all, first off start by pulling the 3 drones off the gas as just after you start your 3 roaches, there will be no more gas need for a while.
--depending on the damage I recommend the following transitions--
if 3/4 OF HIS PROBE LINE is dead and there is 1-2 or no enemy units left: Do a double FE while staying at 1 gas(pull drones back at gas after the 2 hatchs being made), pumping at least 2 larva injections of drones, set up a evo chamber for detection + anti air, dont go into lair tech until you it is most likely not needed until you get higher economy, and dont attack until he is trying to expand, go spine crawlers, and all in defense, hes only chance to win is doing all in strike, so if you defend it its your game.
if HALF OF HIS PROBE LINE is dead, it is more safe to only expand to your natural quickly, and set only 1 larva injection of full drones before resuming army creation units, start your evo chamber quickly and strike when hes trying to expand to his natural.
if VERY FEW PROBES died or HE HOLDS WITH 1 CANNON , it is better to keep the game at 1 base, doing at least 2 larva injections of drones and setting up the lair for upgrading roach underground movement is the best way to fight back the sentry 1 base lockdown on your ramp.
if your initial zergling finds out 2 OR MORE CANNONS, do full drones expand on the first larva pop, and use the 3 initial roaches to try snipe a gateway or forge on his ramp, without being hit by cannons, Protoss enemy is probably gonna be to scared to come out with his units because of the ling pressure fear.
if HE HOLD OFF THE PUSH WITH GATEWAY UNITS transition to GG. (this only happens with build order mistakes or doing on a long distance.)
BTW the build name is LA WZPNIHA !
ORIGINAL POST-
Hello there fellow zergies, I have been pushed far to much to share some of my chesse build order vs the protoss race, I have always refused to let go some strats i made, specially when it comes to many hours of testing and adjusting timings, but seems like the bomb for this 3 ROACH RUSH speedling all in have broken out of control for a resent post... i have been getting many rage from some toss so, ill share the rage with the rest of you guys... and hope seeing u all at Grand Masters League with it =)
(this build was made by wzp and readjusted by wzp as well for over 3 months)
STEP 1: 10 pool 9 over gas trick whatever u like the most , the idea is to get to 13 drones for pool as fast as posible WHILE sending the overlord to nearby ramp position.
STEP 2: when you do the 13 pool , (MOST IMPORTANT PART ) you gotta make the 12 gas right ?, well if u want everything to work out right u gotta make that gas within the 25-30 minerals, if u take more than 40 minerals to put down the gas, it is very likely that you will die to a good player, yeah it is very important. when u send a drone to go spawing pool instantly select a worker to go nearby gas and SPAM extractor on it the fastest as u can. (for ragers--- 13 gas,12 pool gets you more than 2.5 seconds delay... yea it is a lot of time and money doesnt fit right.)
STEP 3: you go on making drones but remember to never scout, take a drone out to check for proxies, and move em out of the mineral line.. u wanna have them mining and avoid all probe agression on drones if posible, each second drones are off-mineral line you are losing seconds off attack, on DRONE 14 you take the 3 drones and send them to gas , but what does this mean????? it means that when the extraxtor pops u NEED to have the drone ARRIVING for gas to pop 1 at a time, dont send all 3 over, or send them in large timings, 1 every second, just when gas is at 95% finished. (Please dont use the drones in the 4 closest mineral patches, use the ones on the futher away mineral patches)
STEP 4: MAKE THE 15 drone - yea this comes after sending the 3 to the gas and it is very important to do it real quick BUT never before sending the drones to gas it comes out just at 1 second later of the gas pop. supply should be 15/18 by now
STEP 5: WAIT
STEP 6: when spawing pool pops out , make 1 queen right away, followed with a roach warren, (never the other way, its ussually 290min when pool pops) and followed by 1 zerglings supply should be 17/18 by now.
STEP 7: zerglings speed upgrade ( IF YOU WANNA KNOW IF YOU ARE DOING THE BUILD FINE YOU GOTTA MAKE ZERGLINGS SPEED AT EXACTLY 100m/100g) if you are doing the speed upgrade at 120m/100g or more mineral or gas, means you just failed and a third sentry will be there to block the ramp forever.
STEP 8: build an overlord as fast as u can, just spam it when u get close to 80m.
STEP 9: use zergling to kill probe/find the enemy on 4 player maps, and check if the opponent is playing cannon defense or something like that. in which you need to transition into an super awsome build, but for that whisper me ingame plz)
STEP 10: by now you should have 1 of your 2 overlord that were send into the ramps of the maps to find the enemy protoss, if u see a bost on the gateway after a cybernetic you better take your over a little bit behind so it doesnt die(which makes things very very dificult) so yea, dont let your overs die to a sentry or cronoed stalker be stealthy with it.
STEP 11: Inject larva and set RALLY POINT outside the enemy ramp(doesnt matter if its too close but try to place it at least out of vision)
STEP 12: when roach warren pops, your overlord should be poping as at exact time and create !!!!! 3 ROACHES !! omg was u able to do it ? cuz if you did i absolutly congratulate you cuz it took me a while to do it and its a pain. anywas if ur third roach is comming out 1-2 secs after its acceptable just remember its 1-2 extra secs your oponent will have to make the killing sentry(which is the #4, 3 sentrys is break-able with this) - --- -- if your third roach is comming out more than 3 seconds after your 2 first roaches then you gotta practice it a lot, its not that it will not work with a delayed roach, its just that it will not be "La wzpinha" rush.
step 13 i guess : take 2 drones out of gas (only 2) after the 3 roaches and make the next larva an overlord, make all upcoming larvas zerglings with the alrdy mentioned rally point. and start the pew pew
execution on ramp: when your 3 roaches are coming up the ramp (or in many fail cases 2 roaches and a third trying to catch on) take your overlord nearby enemy ramp, even if they can attack it, if u see a sentry come for overlord try to snipe it with roaches from right away, if not go up the ramp and i mean ALL THE way up to HUG the zealot dont attack until you are loving the zealot thats blocking the path, attack and try to break in, if you got froce field down the ramp use the over to see the zealot blocking the way and attack it with roaches so it moves away, prepares your speedlings and run in
when more than 20 lings go inside its pretty much over with basic micro, i suggest stomping the pylons near the cybernetics to stop the wrapgate tech if theres only 1.
ill leave build order but please read above >.>
10 lord
13pool
12gas <--- supa fast
15 queen
17 roach warren
16 zergling <-- kill probes , dont try take on the zealot on the ramp
17 speed upgrade
17 overlord
17 ROACH X 3 <--- at the same time if possible.
23 overlord <-- i always forget this guy 
23 zerglings till the end of times.
last advice ( dont attack with 2 roaches, wait for the third 1 even if its coming way behind, all 3 must go up the ramp togheter)
DANGER: avoid doing this more than 10 times in a row to the same player, for he might get extremely frustrated and make a post about it. cof cof ( travis).
WZP - 554 - LA
WZP- 554- NA
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And this is the wzp that was recently so popular?
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Canada13389 Posts
On February 04 2011 15:44 eth3n wrote:
And this is the wzp that was recently so popular?
Yes this is the build Liquid'Travis has been having issues with and started a thread about it.
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I'd just like to congratulate you on working so hard for this build.
Even if others say they have done it since beta, or it's no different from another build, or it's nothing special, or its just cheese, you worked hard on this, and refined it to your liking, and blasted a high level player 3 times with it. Bravo.
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Nice! Haha, but u didn't want to mention the counters...!
Anyways, over at the the other thread, I think it took some time, but they managed to figure it out. The build relies on the roach warren coming down immediately when the pool finishes. However, the scouting probe can then find this. But many protosses don't want to potentially sacrifice the probe.
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I have heard great things from those that analyzed the replay that travis posted. I look forward to being able to use this in an online game. You have done the zerg players in the TL community a great service ^_^
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And this is the wzp that was recently so popular?
Haha, he sure is.
Wow I never imagined you had all those timmings so worked out. Keep messing with the metagame  . LA fighting =).
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Great stuff, I hope to try it out soon
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On February 04 2011 15:29 wzp wrote:
but seems like the bomb for this 3 ROACH RUSH speedling all in have broken out of control for a resent post... i have been getting many rage from some toss so, ill share the rage with the rest of you guys...
wzp probably meant "recent post" but I like how he mis-spelled it as resent.
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Great build. I want to know the super awesome transition build when you see cannons or something.
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this guy's got swagger, and i like it
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It's a good opening, if you play around with it a little you'll notice there's a lot more than a well timed all in behind it, it's adjustable to transition in case of a counter and it's also usable in the other MUs.
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Hey! give us noobs also your ZvZ and ZvT builds....
...also you need to do a follow-up for this or a transition for when they 2-3 cannons or they block with a lot of buildings.
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On February 04 2011 21:18 Evaner wrote:
It's a good opening, if you play around with it a little you'll notice there's a lot more than a well timed all in behind it, it's adjustable to transition in case of a counter and it's also usable in the other MUs.
Actually, if you read the post, that's pretty much all it is. Unless my math is off and he has another like 26 drones hidden somewhere.
The transition is only worth it if you succeed in doing enough damage with it, otherwise you will unconditionally die to the counter.
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keep it up man! ur builds are great :3.
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Nice build order, and a really detailed explanation so everyone knows if they're doing the build right or not. I'm not a fan of all ins, but this one looks really solid. Hats off to you man 
Btw, you should stick to the Strategy forum guidelines, I had no idea what this thread was about with the title you gave it :/
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not sure why you needed to make another thread on it
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psst: the counter is to scout after cybercore, see the roach warren, make an aggressive bad-mannered GG, chrono some units out and enjoy your points.
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On February 05 2011 02:21 badday wrote:
psst: the counter is to scout after cybercore, see the roach warren, make an aggressive bad-mannered GG, chrono some units out and enjoy your points.
Replay plz? Because the people you beat probably didnt have the timings out right, which is all that matters in a timing attack.
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If you have any other sweet cheese you've cooked up, i think you would be doing a huge favor to all zergs if you shared those as-well.
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On February 05 2011 02:21 badday wrote:
psst: the counter is to scout after cybercore, see the roach warren, make an aggressive bad-mannered GG, chrono some units out and enjoy your points.
If I see that the probe spots my warren I cancel it during construction AFTER I get the probe out of sight. If he spots it after its already been built it's far too late anyway. Where's your gg now
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The protoss should be able to spot the warren going down 98% of the time because you build it before you have a queen or zerglings.
Also you start zergling speed before the lings are out too, don't you? ie:
IF YOU WANNA KNOW IF YOU ARE DOING THE BUILD FINE YOU GOTTA MAKE ZERGLINGS SPEED AT EXACTLY 100m/100g
There's certainly a number of tells to it.
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On February 05 2011 03:43 Resistentialism wrote:The protoss should be able to spot the warren going down 98% of the time because you build it before you have a queen or zerglings. Also you start zergling speed before the lings are out too, don't you? ie: Show nested quote +IF YOU WANNA KNOW IF YOU ARE DOING THE BUILD FINE YOU GOTTA MAKE ZERGLINGS SPEED AT EXACTLY 100m/100g There's certainly a number of tells to it.
The build isn't hard to scout, but you have to know what to look for, which isn't hard now that the BO is posted here on TL.
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The hardpart is not scouting it. The hard part is holding it off. And holding it off requires alot of sentries or cannon, otherwise its a hard counter to protoss.
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Good stuff, i like the name of this strat: La wzpinha
LOL
Check ur pm wzp =D
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Oh look, you made a cheese
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I've tried this strategy, and it is so friggin strong. 3 roaches is a good number aswell, because they 1 shot a worker. Also, no plyon for their gate in the choke means gg. Its good to know that there are some strong all-ins which zerg can do, instead of just watching protosses going 1 gate core every time and teching up without much pressure.
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Definately a build to keep in mind if u were to do a best of 3-7 etc where some efficient cheese might be in order to keep them guessing. Not gonna use it as a platinum zerg trying to learn his way around the race, but deffinately my 1st choice when it comes to a cheese rush tac.
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http://www.2shared.com/uploadComplete.jsp?sId=Q3j8gnfibof5MYUY
I know the build isnt executed optimal but it's also steppes of war and I messed up at least at one point.
im not saying the build is bad I'm just saying that after all the analyzing on TL it's not gonna be very useful. one part that is kinda sad with this build is that its real easy to execute and hard to defend. many players will use it to reach higher leagues until suddenly it gets beat every time and they get a 0% win ratio.
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On February 05 2011 08:19 badday wrote:http://www.2shared.com/uploadComplete.jsp?sId=Q3j8gnfibof5MYUYI know the build isnt executed optimal but it's also steppes of war and I messed up at least at one point. im not saying the build is bad I'm just saying that after all the analyzing on TL it's not gonna be very useful. one part that is kinda sad with this build is that its real easy to execute and hard to defend. many players will use it to reach higher leagues until suddenly it gets beat every time and they get a 0% win ratio.
Just like 4gating..oh wait that crap still works in masters.
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what protoss has something now which is hard to defend against the easy execution?
that's basically what you get if you play zerg :D
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yes, hard to defend...lol!
come on, just chrono your gate instead of core and build some stalkers!
put a pylon on the choke above the ramp and eveeeeeeen if he kills it just take 4/5 probes and do the hold position micro
not...that...hard
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On February 05 2011 08:22 Luckbox wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 08:19 badday wrote:http://www.2shared.com/uploadComplete.jsp?sId=Q3j8gnfibof5MYUYI know the build isnt executed optimal but it's also steppes of war and I messed up at least at one point. im not saying the build is bad I'm just saying that after all the analyzing on TL it's not gonna be very useful. one part that is kinda sad with this build is that its real easy to execute and hard to defend. many players will use it to reach higher leagues until suddenly it gets beat every time and they get a 0% win ratio. Just like 4gating..oh wait that crap still works in masters.
That's because four gate is not always an immediate all-in that relies on not being scouted. This build is a flavor of the month to rack up meaningless ladder wins. At least four gating teaches you timings, micro, remembering exact warp in times, not getting supply blocked, and has transitions out of it. This is absolutely a no-transition all-in whereyou would do the same thing every time. Since everyone is using this, soon everyone will find the counter to it, and then you're left with a few meaningless wins, and perhaps facing players better than you and getting stomped worse than you were before. If ladder points mean that much to you, go ahead. If you're that desperate to all-in because you think your race is weak, switch races instead of playing a reactionary macro race. (no protoss qq here, I haven't even been able to play against this due to b.net not working for me)
As for "canceling the roach warren", I would put down the forge when I see the roach warren and go back in later. If I see no roach warren or roaches being built, then I would just go into a +1 four gate while the zerg laughs about how he tricked me with his uneconomical fake outand started droning hard. You don't have to put cannons down the second your forge finishes. -Or you can just block off with a gate or nexus (canceled before completion obviously), chronoboost out stalkers and just win since you're ahead by 10 probes.
At least this build stops protoss from always being too greedy on not scouting, sacrificing workers, or using chrono solely on nexus.
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Thanks for posting, this will make games more interesting even if I don't use it, I am sure 
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On February 05 2011 10:18 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 08:22 Luckbox wrote:On February 05 2011 08:19 badday wrote:http://www.2shared.com/uploadComplete.jsp?sId=Q3j8gnfibof5MYUYI know the build isnt executed optimal but it's also steppes of war and I messed up at least at one point. im not saying the build is bad I'm just saying that after all the analyzing on TL it's not gonna be very useful. one part that is kinda sad with this build is that its real easy to execute and hard to defend. many players will use it to reach higher leagues until suddenly it gets beat every time and they get a 0% win ratio. Just like 4gating..oh wait that crap still works in masters. That's because four gate is not always an immediate all-in that relies on not being scouted. This build is a flavor of the month to rack up meaningless ladder wins. At least four gating teaches you timings, micro, remembering exact warp in times, not getting supply blocked, and has transitions out of it. This is absolutely a no-transition all-in whereyou would do the same thing every time. Since everyone is using this, soon everyone will find the counter to it, and then you're left with a few meaningless wins, and perhaps facing players better than you and getting stomped worse than you were before. If ladder points mean that much to you, go ahead. If you're that desperate to all-in because you think your race is weak, switch races instead of playing a reactionary macro race. (no protoss qq here, I haven't even been able to play against this due to b.net not working for me) As for "canceling the roach warren", I would put down the forge when I see the roach warren and go back in later. If I see no roach warren or roaches being built, then I would just go into a +1 four gate while the zerg laughs about how he tricked me with his uneconomical fake outand started droning hard. You don't have to put cannons down the second your forge finishes. -Or you can just block off with a gate or nexus (canceled before completion obviously), chronoboost out stalkers and just win since you're ahead by 10 probes. At least this build stops protoss from always being too greedy on not scouting, sacrificing workers, or using chrono solely on nexus.
Overly harsh analysis IMO. Did you read the OP regarding tight timings? Specific Overlord control, gas income control, roach micro on the bust, avoiding supply blocks are all critical elements. Sure it's cheese, but such well-crafted cheese I'd recommend aspiring zergs try it out to see what a refined build feels like.
Not sure how much you play zerg, but a lot of the time it feels to me like walking a tightrope, delicately balancing econ and defense while the opponent prepares to strike you from some unpredictable angle. Play a build like this, and you can let Protoss walk the tightrope for the first 5-7 minutes instead. 3 roaches with an Overlord to spot are very good given the timings. If P missteps, SPEEDLINGS IN UR MAIN, WASSUP?
Regarding transitions, it is possible for P to overinvest in static D, giving up map control. Zerg tech is in a decent spot, with speed finished and a roach warren down, with the mineral income to support a solid stream of zerglings OR drones. Pumping a lot of drones and transitioning to hydras seems like a viable followup, but I'd love to hear from better players on their experiences with games after a rush gets deflected by lots of cannons.
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You don't need static defense to beat this, you just need to react quickly and chrono out some stalkers, then be ready to complete your wall in if needed.
If the zerg fakes this opening and you go for cannons, you are going to put yourself behind. If the zerg fakes this and you go for early units pre-warpgate, it might push back your build a bit, but you'll still be on quite a good footing against a late expanding zerg.
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Very ingenious way to use the mechanics of zerg to push out a super nice attack, gonna try this out soon
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LOL finally these zergs get their cheesy trump card.!!!
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this build gave me lots of trouble, but the counter is easy. as soon as you scout it, throw a forge and stargate down and make a tight wall. easy peasy
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I have beaten it without sentry or cannons or lolstargate, going basically 3 gates (and expand)... The secret is to boost your gateways and have a terrible micro like me... lol.
replay
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On February 04 2011 15:29 wzp wrote:DANGER: avoid doing this more than 10 times in a row to the same player, for he might get extremely frustrated and make a post about it. cof cof ( travis).
This made me laugh.
Looks like a well thought out and strong build. Props for getting the timings down so precisely. Some replays would have been nice, but that's what Travis' thread is for, hahah.
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Been trying this out in 2v2 amazing results so far with mass zealot partner
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I'm glad to see this, not because I like all-in strategies, but his is a truly well thought out and well timed build, this harkens back to BW builds, where everything is on a razor's edge for a great timing push.
Good work, wzp, and keep pushing toward excellence TL, hope you can make a whole race QQ at you for an awesome timing push you design ^^
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if this is the future of sc2 I am SO down :-D I messed around with this build and timings are as paper thin as he talks about but if you nail it within a few %% of flawless there isent a thing protoss can do if he hasent delt with it a lot of times, the hallmark of any good cheese, it takes a while to stop losing to it
in about a week im going to start using an opening that looks the same but im going to drone behind it insted of cranking lings and its going to be just great, 3 roach+2 lings for watchtowers/plus one wave of speedlings will hold any early poke they decide to send out after they realize theyv been duped, its gonna be real nice
edit: forgot to give sick grats on actually developing your own killer build, more to come from the rest of us <3
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Holy crap, skimmed over it once and did it with ease. Awesome build!
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On February 06 2011 05:36 Javahulk wrote:
if this is the future of sc2 I am SO down :-D I messed around with this build and timings are as paper thin as he talks about but if you nail it within a few %% of flawless there isent a thing protoss can do if he hasent delt with it a lot of times, the hallmark of any good cheese, it takes a while to stop losing to it
in about a week im going to start using an opening that looks the same but im going to drone behind it insted of cranking lings and its going to be just great, 3 roach+2 lings for watchtowers/plus one wave of speedlings will hold any early poke they decide to send out after they realize theyv been duped, its gonna be real nice
edit: forgot to give sick grats on actually developing your own killer build, more to come from the rest of us <3
^I'm actually more interested in that build. Three Roaches can put on early pressure and still break through if the Protoss screws up, and the scouting OL can give the speedlings the go if the Protoss neglects his defense. Then, the next few waves you can get your drone count back up and you still have 3 Roaches and ling speed for any early counterpushes.
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bravo bravo! gonna try this=D
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reminds me of 3 rr agies ago, tis shit all protoss can do without him cutting probes at 12 ans chrononing just troops out, turns into mirco battle with his 1 stalker + zealot vs generally 3 roaches, u couldn;t use probes to fight due to the 1 shot nature of the roaches vs them, and if the zerg does more then 2 probes dmg per roach he could queen and vomint ahead in workers :D,
i will give this build ago alot like with the 3rr and realise it still same level as 6pool ^^;
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Excellent build! I think I might actually play on Steppes again using this build. I'm so proud of the swarm right now. I believe we're the first race that has such an extremely well-timed build like this :D
And all the noobs and trolls saying they've beaten this build before using watever method and being extremely easy. Chances are it was NOT the exact build. When regarding such a tight unit comp timing attack like this, timing is EVERYTHING. I don't care if you've beaten a build that comes at 5:30 with the exact unit number, it is NOT the same build ( or just badly executed).
Look in the replay Travis posted up. He got hit with 3 roaches at his front at exactly 5 minutes game time. As OP stated, seconds matters in this build as that extra sentry/cannon can come online and destroy the build.
I'm just sick of all the noobie bronze/silver leaguer coming in here thinking they are some genius with the answer to a build that's been refined down to the seconds. Afaik, there are no other builds out there that comes down to the seconds like this. There's almost no lee-way.
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No prob... I made a Protoss build detailed here: http://www.sc2builds.com/build/828 that is an eco opener that easily handles this because I faced this a couple of times since release, although wzp seems to have perfected it. You wall off with both gates and place the zealot in the gap, and choose to chrono the 2 stalkers out. You get gateway tech, then a pylon, then when the 2 stalkers pop you can cb 2 more zealots out. This is more than enough to handle the crowded choke if you know how to micro because the stalkers can get shots off before the 3 roaches can, and if you let the stalkers tank some shots it's even harder for the roaches to get the job done after you switch the stalker out for the zeals.
If the Z player cranks out lings after the initial push, you can easily go Stargate tech to phoenix or Void Ray while cranking out Zealots to match them and a few stalkers and its gg for them. This build is so much more of an all-in for Z because it sacs their very necessary expansion, while the PvP eco 2 gate fast stalker is an eco build.
Also, since the P player reaches 14 probes + gate before the Z player reaches their 13 drones + pool, the 2 stalkers and 1 zeal are out before the 3 roaches + lings are at your ramp... Roach warren build time = 55, Cyber core build time = 50, CB stalker build time = 32, roach build time = 27 + travel time with low speed
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On February 06 2011 06:56 me_viet wrote:
Excellent build! I think I might actually play on Steppes again using this build. I'm so proud of the swarm right now. I believe we're the first race that has such an extremely well-timed build like this :D
And all the noobs and trolls saying they've beaten this build before using watever method and being extremely easy. Chances are it was NOT the exact build. When regarding such a tight unit comp timing attack like this, timing is EVERYTHING. I don't care if you've beaten a build that comes at 5:30 with the exact unit number, it is NOT the same build ( or just badly executed).
Look in the replay Travis posted up. He got hit with 3 roaches at his front at exactly 5 minutes game time. As OP stated, seconds matters in this build as that extra sentry/cannon can come online and destroy the build.
I'm just sick of all the noobie bronze/silver leaguer coming in here thinking they are some genius with the answer to a build that's been refined down to the seconds. Afaik, there are no other builds out there that comes down to the seconds like this. There's almost no lee-way.
Travis had a bad unit comp and that's why he lost, we discussed that in his thread
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Portugal1621 Posts
I'm only a Silver player but I have done this build to 2 gold players and they went down pretty fast.
On the first game on Blistering Sands after killing the units defending the ramp I sent the lings to chew the mining line. A second batch of units warp in (2 stalkers) but he already had no probes. Rage quit.
On the second game on Shakuras he was FE so he already had a forge/gateway and 2 cannons at the natural's ramp. With the roaches I sniped one pylon (gateway offline) and sent the lings directly to the main probe line. The roaches eventualy got killed but when it happened he already lost all his probes. Rage quit.
Well just let me say until I saw Travis post about it I hated PvZ...Now I don't hate it as much
I don't know how it will work in masters and diamonds when protoss finds how to defend this but down here in silver it works just fine.
WZP, great build. :D
edit- typos
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I gotta say, when executing this build you feel pretty awesome. The resource usage and timings just feel great. Also got to add my thanks, I used this to my success in my last 4 zvp matches, won, and then got promoted into diamond :D
Between this and banelings busts I'm going to be having quite a lot of fun at terran and protoss expense
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i used this build a few times to learn it and i had pretty much 100% success. i don't generally cheese but, bb blistering sands 4 gate *cough*..
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ill add some more build as the time pass on, but i some of you could coment first on the fact that doing all ins/rushes makes your overall gameplay worse. what do your guys think about that ? true or not?
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Show a monkey how to 6 pool an infinite amount of times and eventually it will execute the build and win games by cheesing..
That being said, with critical thinking and knowledge of why you are doing what you are doing (and of course not using all ins every game) it doesn't affect overall player skill at all.
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just wanted to say... its a good support for a validity of a BOs success claim when a team liquid team member posts asking if itls unbeatable a day before the BO post! This build is awesome thanks wzp I've been playing with it since LiquidTylers post on Steppes of War. It works sooo well on that map
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On February 06 2011 10:11 wzp wrote:
ill add some more build as the time pass on, but i some of you could coment first on the fact that doing all ins/rushes makes your overall gameplay worse. what do your guys think about that ? true or not?
It doesn't make your gameplay worse, but you won't learn and progress neither. So if your doing that on ladder, specially for low league player where the fundamentals are so bad, you'll have a lot off win, your opponents will get better but not you.
Cause let's face it, execute that build well is not that hard and don't require as much of practice as manage a good and long macro game.
I personally like this all in a lot, it's very powerful. It's good to have some all in for BO3 imo, i did this on ladder once or twice, and mainly on YABOT to test the timing on different maps with the BO3 logic in mind, i find that it's very good on LT.
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Can argue all century long about what takes more skill but the bottom line is what wins games? You can say this doesn't teach you anything or help your game but if you're winning instead of losing then you're wrong, it IS helping your game. If the only purpose of playing was to get better what would be the point of getting better? The point is to WIN and if the cheese lets you do that then you won the game, end of story.
The only real discussion left is how do you stop it, and is it too powerful and needs to be patched? I'm not going to venture a guess on either of these but I think that's what this topic should be discussing, not whether or not it will still work in a year. The game moves and changes and every build is part of it. Right now, cheese is 100% standard and stable against Z so why should it be wrong for Z to do it sometimes too?
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On February 06 2011 10:11 wzp wrote:
ill add some more build as the time pass on, but i some of you could coment first on the fact that doing all ins/rushes makes your overall gameplay worse. what do your guys think about that ? true or not?
I think NonY said it pretty well on SotG awhile ago, 90% of the time you have to all in at some point, weather it be on one base or 5. If you feel confident enough in your strategy to go all in and expect to win the game in the first 4-9 minutes, that's ballsy.
That being said, I don't think 1 base all-ins should be the main focus of your play, if you want to grow as a player (not saying it is for you). I think MKP's style is pretty sick to watch, but it gets annoying when that's ALL he does, you begin to feel like that's all he CAN do, and isn't all that good outside his gimmick (which I"m not saying he isn't, despite him eating it pretty hard at the last GSL when he tried to do something else.
Flash is/was Fucking Brilliant at decision making, so players allot of times try to take him out early because they know if they let him live, they're going to have a very hard time pulling a win, and don't think about him doing all-in 1 base plays, but he mixes them in from time to time to catch people off guard. I think that's awesome.
So no, there's nothing wrong with one base all-in timings, I just don't feel they should be a player's "go-to" plan.
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I've managed to make this build work and even in times where I see I can't bust my opponents wall due to too many sentries or cannons, I simply back off and macro, my overlord will be at his front door to check out his wall situation and by then I have the choice of doing an all-in with speedlings, or saving the minerals for an expansion.
I've also had it where in a bo3 I've used this build to win the first game, then the next game when my opponent came to check the timing of my roach warren, I was able to get a pair of lings out before the warren finished, I chased out the probe, canceled the warren and expanded. His reaction? Cannon at his front and delay teching, and I ended up winning later in a macro game.
So can this build be countered? Yes, but it's clearly a new meta game shift for ZvP. Once all the protoss figure out how to counter the build, you can expect that once they scout your quick Roach warren that they will respond with the counter. Chase the probe out and transition into a macro game, it's definitely do able and you have ling speed for map control which is always a benefit. This build really makes the protoss react to you rather than the other way around which is a nice change and will certainly change how ZvP is played.
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On February 05 2011 10:18 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 08:22 Luckbox wrote:On February 05 2011 08:19 badday wrote:http://www.2shared.com/uploadComplete.jsp?sId=Q3j8gnfibof5MYUYI know the build isnt executed optimal but it's also steppes of war and I messed up at least at one point. im not saying the build is bad I'm just saying that after all the analyzing on TL it's not gonna be very useful. one part that is kinda sad with this build is that its real easy to execute and hard to defend. many players will use it to reach higher leagues until suddenly it gets beat every time and they get a 0% win ratio. Just like 4gating..oh wait that crap still works in masters. At least four gating teaches you timings, micro, remembering exact warp in times, not getting supply blocked, and has transitions out of it.
Yeah, 4gate is so hard to execute. We bow to all P players that have the timings, exact warp in times, and the micro required to pull it off.
get a hold of yourself.
Oh and good job OP, it's nice to see someone dedicated so much time making it work.
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Italy12246 Posts
On February 06 2011 10:11 wzp wrote:
ill add some more build as the time pass on, but i some of you could coment first on the fact that doing all ins/rushes makes your overall gameplay worse. what do your guys think about that ? true or not?
It definitely makes you worse (in comparison to your opponents) in long-term games because you don't play them as much as another player who will not cheese/allin as often.
The way i see it is every player has strenghts/weaknesses. Playing almost only 1base, allins and cheese highlights some of these strenghts and weaknesses with respect to others, but it doesn't mean you are a worse player in general. To me good players just win games, in any way they can.
The bottom line is, builds like that after a while can get easy to stop, and eventually you reach the point where your all-ins and one-base pushes dont work as well, so you either change your builds or suddenly start losing a lot of games (3rax to me is a good example of this).
On the other hand, being good at macroing is more general and will allow you to win games as strategies change.
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Okey, first:
STEP 7: zerglings speed upgrade ( IF YOU WANNA KNOW IF YOU ARE DOING THE BUILD FINE YOU GOTTA MAKE ZERGLINGS SPEED AT EXACTLY 100m/100g) if you are doing the speed upgrade at 120m/100g or more mineral or gas, means you just failed and a third sentry will be there to block the ramp forever.
20 minerals are mined in few seconds and you say if I am late in few seconds then 3rd sentry is out and can block ramp forever. So you mention that few seconds can make this build worthless but you don't say anything about maps. I mean different distance between maps are more than few seconds traveling so what you just said does not make much sense.
That's a strong all in but there are a lot of things: on what maps this build does not work; what if opponent goes forge/canons; isn't it better to proxy roach warren by making hatch cancel so you know for sure he is not going to have canons; what about if opponent opens forge first?
You could give much more detail if you was practising this build so long
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what if your opponent goes forge FE? i was able to kill the zealot door and ran by a group of lings who were only able to do 3-4 probes worth of dmg since they were so low from cannons. i checked the replay, at the time my roaches are almost halfway there, he has +5 probes on me.. my question is if you see his build is a forge fe with cannons, do you skip the reinforcement lings and instead build drones with them? your inject pops and you can immediately catch up on probes as well as have an expo soon after
maybe thats the difference between making this strictly an all in build and an opportunity build.
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On February 06 2011 22:02 LsPhizix wrote:
what if your opponent goes forge FE? i was able to kill the zealot door and ran by a group of lings who were only able to do 3-4 probes worth of dmg since they were so low from cannons. i checked the replay, at the time my roaches are almost halfway there, he has +5 probes on me.. my question is if you see his build is a forge fe with cannons, do you skip the reinforcement lings and instead build drones with them? your inject pops and you can immediately catch up on probes as well as have an expo soon after
maybe thats the difference between making this strictly an all in build and an opportunity build.
if he has a bad sim city, and only one cannon, i'd just punish the toss fe just like bw style with lings, micro your roaches vs the zealot. it really depends on what you see though even if he pulls probes, you're just going to have a shit ton of lings. micro micro micro. diamond here, but i guess that doesn't matter much.
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it looks really interesting! I have a suggestion to counter protoss scout with probe, which seems unavoidable. why not building the roach warren outside your base, with a hatchery cancel trick?
So you take a drone, when you're around 17. Make a hatch somewhere on the map. Cancel it, use the creep to put immediately a roach warren. and then queen.
OF course you'll loose a bit of money and time... maybe it'll completely throw off the cheese (you seem to be very very careful about timing) but maybe not so much... worth a try at least no?
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wzp u gotta help me with 1 thing tho. It has become more popular nowadays when a toss blindly throw up cannons at your nat and at his front. Does your build work then aswell or do I change the build?
(When i'm talking about cannons at his front there's just only 1 or 2 cannons.)
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The problem with this build is if you started to do it and it appears opponent is doing fast forge expand it is insta loss. And when you don't scout you can't know if he is doing forge FE.
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I totally have that third roach come out 1-2 seconds later than the first two, lol. Guess i'll need to work on it
The other discussion as to whether "cheese" like this makes you worse - not always.
There's a point where you go from doing an approximate build order to doing something that is more refined. If I described the build as early ling/roach pressure to counter a 4 gate, 3 gate expand, then I'd be missing the finer details which actually make this build viable; namely the timing of the attack. Refining your play, to execute a build such that the objective (in this case an attack) happens at a moment in which it is viable is something every player should understand. Players should try all kinds of builds, just the act of KNOWING it couldn't hurt you.
That said, if you exclusively 6 pool, then yeah, you're not going to understand what to do in any game that lasts longer than the time it takes to execute one (because there's likely no follow up). But having that knowledge means you can work on other builds, maybe an 8 pool Everything is about process and learning the consequences/benefits of each build is a good habit to have.
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well well i had some time for reading so lets answer some questions. (sorry for my lame english)
1 - if you are making the build with such tight timings, and microing well i do belive that you are improving your game for it is hard to make it right.
2- for protoss cannons up the ramp - --- you gotta count the # of cannons of the enemy, if he have 1 cannon keep going with the push / the 3 roaches should be able to stomp the zealot and cannon while the force field goes away, even if they die you can make it with lings. if he have 2 cannons you gotta cancel the roach warren and put down a baneling nest right away, try to target the cannons if possible, if you alrdy did the roach warren, try to attack a gateway or zealot witouth beign hit by the cannons while you make the banelings 5-6 to break in. if there is 3 or more cannons expand and drone up a lot and then transition into a hydra-roach build ussually makes it.
3- for protoss FE with cannons you should NOT have trouble with this build unless it is lost temple, go around the cannons with roaches, hit the nexus, try to run by to the main with speedlings, just do a good micro war in there, you dont have to actually kill the cannons, but you also dont need a baneling nest unless hes spaming zealots or something.
4- about the 120m/100g comment, it might seem like its not that important, but you will be getting your 3th roach 1-2 secs like my friend just on the comment above, and it IS important, belive me, when you face Onecruncher/ katari or such extreme good players, that is a second or two, you cant afford to lose.
5- THIS BUILD WORKS ON THE FOLLOWING MAPS ONLY( or i wouldnt recoment doing it on the other maps) : ALL... but blizztering sands, scrap station and shakuras plateu. for this current map pool.
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Considering that this build has tight timings and is pretty micro intensive, yes, it's going to make you better.
Is it going to improve your macro Game? No..
But that is pretty freaking obvious.
It's clearly an all-in and I am personally very happy to have it in my possible repertoire for a BoX.
So thanks to the OP!
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The easiest way to spot this coming is to watch whether the zerg makes an OL at 15 or not. Basically, if an OL pops at same time as pool, it is not the build.
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Yes, this build is an excellent slice of cheese to keep in your belt. Don't try to build a career off it though.
In the meantime, I will enjoy macrostomping people who are made paranoid by these sorts of all-ins.
I would like to note that this is sort of similar to the 3RR spam roach all-in I usually use on Steppes, I might switch this one in against protoss because roaches are so slow.
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Im loving this build im destroying protoss on the ladder catching them unaware. Even if they scout the roach warren they have trouble to react accordingly. Also tried it against terran and zerg and it doesnt seem the work against those 2 races at all. Im gonna accumulate allot of cheesy wins this way so im having fun while it lasts
And as other posters have said you can cancel the roach warren and shift to macro game to throw protoss offguard once this build becomes more common.
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On February 07 2011 03:14 wzp wrote:
1 - if you are making the build with such tight timings, and microing well i do belive that you are improving your game for it is hard to make it right.
If you are making the build, yes it helps you improve, because you understand what you are doing. You improve your "build making" skill, and that will help you after your all-in start to be frequently countered.
However, if you are just copying the build without understanding the reason behind each action, then you are not improving at all. It will allow you to win some games, but eventually people will to counter the all-in, and you won't have made any progress.
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On February 06 2011 23:40 apalemorning wrote:
if he has a bad sim city, and only one cannon, i'd just punish the toss fe just like bw style with lings, micro your roaches vs the zealot. it really depends on what you see though even if he pulls probes, you're just going to have a shit ton of lings. micro micro micro. diamond here, but i guess that doesn't matter much.
yeah, i guess i coulda bypassed with probes was my fault actually.. his door was weak for a fe and roaches can make it by the cannons coulda done way more dmg to probes
that being said.... my bros account was at silver 3w/3l and now its at 25w/12 and im in gold... beat diamond player and platinum player with this build.
was called a dbag for all in.
loved it.
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Thank you for this, must have been hard to work out such tight timings and thinking out of the box of the already existing openings.
As for the question about cheese, as long as you don't do it every game and know how to play "standard" I don't see how it would be a problem. Plus it's so refreshing to make protoss QQ for once =D
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Does MiniGun lost last night for this build or it was my impression? OMG! It is going to be crazy...
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Hey wzp thanks again for the build. I was reading another topic on toss 10gate where one guy said that since he started opening 10gate->chronoboosted zealot this build became a non-issue. Thoughts? I'm plat and i've never encountered a ten gate doing this build. Wondering if you took down that as easily or if it counters/requires something different.
edit: heres LiquidTylers thread in response to this build lol he took it down and changed the title to be less uhhh... yea. Apparently chrono-ing out stalkers works but not from the people I'm playing against
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189683
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I like the zerg point of view on this build. Cool stuff. Its also interesting to see the difference between standard diamond cheese and the pro execution of a well timed cheese, which this clearly is.
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thanks, was trying to do this build and kept losing lol... obviously didnt put as much thought into it as you did, good job.
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This post is the reason I faced this 5 times in a row on ladder last night =.=....so hard to stop....so so hard. The only time I beat this was 16-nexus into cannon defense with shit patrolling around to stop nydus.
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man this buildorder sucks, all he did was place a cannon and my rush failed.
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Givez uz a repleyz beforz attackingz thiz buildz :D
In other words, you might suck
Or you cannot expect a 100% win with this.
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As I already said in previous post WITH replay: Dont need to use cannons or sentries to defend the build.
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Hey, someone expanded on the old 3RR!
I always just kept building roaches instead of switching over to zerglings - but I like your style! However, I just thought I'd pop in and suggest a slightly improved build order for ya WZP!
Looking at your timings, you are doing a build like this:
10/10 ol
3 drones (13/18)
spawning pool (drops at 1:49)
extractor (drops at 1:51 - you're not kidding about getting this down FAST)
4 more drones
Queen (2:55)
Roach Warren (2:59)
zergling (1 egg worth)
Metabolic boost (3:16)
Overlord
3 roaches (3:55)
Overlord
Zerglings
After playing around with it a bit, I'd suggest you modify your build to this:
11/10 extractor trick
Overlord
Spawning pool (1:30 ish)
2 drones
Extractor ASAP (1:50 ish)
4 drones (start putting the drones on gas ASAP as you have said)
Queen (2:38 ish)
Drone
Roach Warren (3:00 ish)
Drone (or zergling - your choice, drone gives you a hair more econ, zergling lets you try and stop the scout probe)
Metabolic boost (3:17 ish)
Overlord
3 roaches (3:55)
Overlord
ZERGLINGS
This will get you your roaches in the same timeframe, has a slightly stronger economy (a few more drones) and gets your queen out almost 20 seconds earlier (almost a full larva cycle earlier). That gives you a stronger attack, a stronger followup, or a stronger basis to macro out of if he's dropped a couple cannons... It's also a hair more forgiving due to the extra drones - a bronze leaguer should be able to follow that build and pull off 3 roaches building @ 4:00.
Not trying to tell a master league rank 1 how to play, just making a suggestion. Give it a shot, I think you'll like the improvement .
for any purists, a basic format for this build is:
11/10 extractor trick
Overlord
11/18 spawning pool
2 drones
12/18 Extractor ASAP
4 drones
15/18 queen
1 drone
18/18 Roach warren
1 drone (or zergling, your choice)
18/18 metabolic boost
18/18 Overlord
18/26 3 roaches
24/26 overlord
LOTS OF ZERGLINGS
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Good to see this agrees with my notes to a tee.
Very nice build for punishing protoss players who are in the mindset of making the standard 4 gate build every game, or rushing void rays without properly scouting. Because of the early roaches, it's also very effective in handling proxy gate zealots.
So far I've only had one guy defend it (he was high masters), and I missed ling speed. It would have been very tight if I'd remembered it. I know in the replay travis posted you hinted at a transition to banelings under some circumstances (which, I presume is the reason for keeping one drone on gas). Something like that could really improve the longevity of the build.
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I found the following can be quite successful:
I took the idea from someone's post. Note that to counter this build, the protoss needs to scout it => chrono tons of units.
Do the normal build, but move a drone out when pool is like 1/3 done.
Move it to somewhere random. When your pool pops, you'll have ~290 minerals. Wait to 300, drop a hatch with that drone in the middle of nowhere, then cancel => roach warren. Immediately make queen.
THIS DOES NOT PUT YOU THAT FAR BEHIND, because you'll be down 75 minerals, but skip the first pair of zerglings. You no longer need to deny scouting. Then follow the rest.
You sacrifice like 10 in game seconds off the build, but it stops them from scouting and lol-forging you.
The worst part of this rush is that it's easily scoutable since you go warren before that first pair of lings. Sacrifice 10 seconds off the build to make it unscoutable, and then the protoss is left guessing after your queen chases out his scout.
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Wow haha thanks for this! At first it seemed like you were gonna say how to defend against it, and I was thinking, wow nice guy for showing people how to beat it even after so much work, but apparently not. But I have no problem, it's your build haha! But either way cool that you're sharing.
This is pretty cool gonna use this
DANGER: avoid doing this more than 10 times in a row to the same player, for he might get extremely frustrated and make a post about it. cof cof ( travis).
Hahaha. How do you end up that many times (at least 3) against the same player anyhow? Unless you guys are like top 200 or something?
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sigh cheese.... probe scouts are always in the base to see the timings for this. wall in+ 1 cannon shuts it down completely. If you do not inflict major dmg to the toss you lose, you are sitting on 15 workers after 6 minutes....
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This build is really strong, i've lost like 1 or 2 games using it. Once, it was Shakura's horizontal positions, he saw my roach... did a forge out of my line of sight and when my roaches were middle way he throw 3 cannons and closed with a pylon. I was able to take one before they finished but the other 2 prevented me to zone in.
I tried banelings to break his wall, and actually did it, but found out a pair of Void Rays and a couple of zealots. VRs took down roaches, zelots lings and it was mostly GG... because 14 drones vs 24 probes its just that... GG.
Anyway, using this build put me some times in situations where I have to micro really hard to make it work... and most toss break into rage calling me a lot of names (which I usually call on terrans xD).
But my main point is: I really don't feel I'm defeating a better player with an ez strat. Most of the times I feel I'm defeating a worse player that would use an ez strat to take me down.
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I really don't feel I'm defeating a better player with an ez strat
I've beaten players -way- above my pay grade with cheese like this.
The fact is, some really good players just aren't very good under the pressure put on by a strong all-in early attack. Those same players might absolutely obliterate me in a long game, but I can take them if I take them early.
So, I don't think the players you are beating are necessarily worse than you - just that they aren't particularly good at gauging the threat you pose so early into the game. An all-in rush requires some early-game counter adjustment to survive (typically), so if he just keeps plodding around for a midgame timing push, he's almost always going to die when you knock on the door earlier than expected.
It's not just me either, look at the accounts of some of the masters and you'll see weird things - successful 6 pools for example.
You'd think a master could -always- easily handle any 6 pool. You'd be wrong.
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Move it to somewhere random. When your pool pops, you'll have ~290 minerals. Wait to 300, drop a hatch with that drone in the middle of nowhere, then cancel => roach warren. Immediately make queen.
I tried doing this on his ramp, a la evo chamber block, but it's too late to block the wall off, it would mainly just be for bm.
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This sort of work being put into the build is what makes this community so great. Thank you.
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I am starting to face players who forge + 3 cannons when they scout the fast roach warren. I found this build to be especially strong on blistering sands since you can hit the back rocks when you see cannons. The protoss has to get more cannons around the back rocks whilst you can stop producing units after the initial batch and expand.
With the initial units you have map control and deny his expo as he only has cannons, so protoss will typically go for a 1 base all in after that, based around 4 warp gate, DT or void rays, so make sure you are prepared for that and you shouldn't have too much problems.
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On February 08 2011 08:51 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +Move it to somewhere random. When your pool pops, you'll have ~290 minerals. Wait to 300, drop a hatch with that drone in the middle of nowhere, then cancel => roach warren. Immediately make queen. I tried doing this on his ramp, a la evo chamber block, but it's too late to block the wall off, it would mainly just be for bm.
Well that's why I just put the roach warren somewhere NOT on his ramp =)
On February 08 2011 11:33 PhatCop wrote:
I am starting to face players who forge + 3 cannons when they scout the fast roach warren. I found this build to be especially strong on blistering sands since you can hit the back rocks when you see cannons. The protoss has to get more cannons around the back rocks whilst you can stop producing units after the initial batch and expand.
With the initial units you have map control and deny his expo as he only has cannons, so protoss will typically go for a 1 base all in after that, based around 4 warp gate, DT or void rays, so make sure you are prepared for that and you shouldn't have too much problems.
This is why placing the roach warren somewhere hidden works. It stops scouting, and if someone doesn't know the timings of the build, you can surprise them =P
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On February 08 2011 11:33 PhatCop wrote:
I am starting to face players who forge + 3 cannons when they scout the fast roach warren. I found this build to be especially strong on blistering sands since you can hit the back rocks when you see cannons. The protoss has to get more cannons around the back rocks whilst you can stop producing units after the initial batch and expand.
With the initial units you have map control and deny his expo as he only has cannons, so protoss will typically go for a 1 base all in after that, based around 4 warp gate, DT or void rays, so make sure you are prepared for that and you shouldn't have too much problems.
you should realize he has 3 cannons at his base before you even have your round of lings made. so you lose your roaches. thats 225 mins/75 gas. u said 3 cannons, that 450 mins that he didnt spend on probes, or gateways or cores. so you scout the 3 cannons, hes essentially saying go ahead and expand i cant move from this spot for the next 5 minutes at least.
this happened to me and as soon as i saw that he cannon/fe blocked, i immediately threw down my 2nd gas and an expo where i mine gas 1st train another queen and begin my creep, you should have larvae and just spam drones and tech to lair asap. cause he aint attacking. then ive found you have way too many minerals again very soon after you throw down ur expo, with not enough larvae so i put down my 3rd. your overlord can still see their base. and the static d at the front of his base does no damage to my mutas that fly around. i got to max army before him as well because he sees so many units so early, he assumes you are going to keep making units and he makes them fearing the initial push. until his obs tells him that you havent made another offensive unit for 3 minutes of gametime. if you dont die to gimmick like dt warp prism you should be able to have 3-4 bases running before he is confident to move out of his natural. also. 3 cannons, dont defend against everything, remember to push his front and prod to not just let him max to 200/200 then its gg anyways.
WZP said he had a build to follow this if there were 2+ cannons so im thinking its something of this nature.
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Fun variant.
After speed, stop gas at 75 and put drones back on minerals - ( assuming toss didnt forge yet )
Then when your lings are popping, bring all your drones with you as well. You'll be able to pump more lings anyway due to more minerals from stopping gas.
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Really liked doing this against my toss buddies, it hits soo fast. The Speedlings The Speedlings! Roaches just for zealot goodness, and the Horror strikes on key pylons, current army and probe-line. I typically play Protoss, but learned this for ZvP to frighten away all them confident toss that think roch rushes are easy (when it's the slings that get ya)
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I just wanted to thank you for posting this well-written guide. I keep it on my second monitor in protoss matchups and am undefeated against toss except for a couple instances where I screwed up the build (14 pool, late roach, that kinda thing).
I was struggling hardcore with toss before picking up this build... now it is my easiest matchup by far. 2700 diamond.
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United States17042 Posts
renamed the thread a little bit
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On February 10 2011 06:42 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
renamed the thread a little bit
Thanks for making it hard for people to find again
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maybe idra can make a 30 minute show on this.
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Just theorycrafting here but what do you think about doing this and if the probe scouts the Roach Warren don't upgrade speed, cancel roach warren when the probe is gone/dead, and follow up with a hydra drop à la Machine.
Next time I can play a little bit I'll try this with my pratice partner.
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I've been having a discussion (read: argument) with someone who think that this build is so strong that blizzard will have to make a balance alteration because it breaks ZvP. Am I being thick or is this rush really as fragile as I think it is (if toss holds zerg is way behind is what I think, even with using forge and two cannons, thanks to the low drone count and no expo) or is it really mega powerful and I should always be using it?
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as protoss only thing i've really found to counter this has been 1gate VR opening... or chronoboosting out sentries early instead of warpgate...still really hard though
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There is nothing broken with this build. Sure it gets units to your ramp ridiculously fast but it is extremely holdable. As said before if you hold, you are so far ahead. People need to start walling off completely with a gateway. 150 minerals is nothing compared to what they lose doing their attack.
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i've encountered this build several times, and as soon as i scout the very early roach warren, i immediately stop probe production to build a forge and 2 cannons as follow-up (after that go on with probe production and don't forget to tech). chronoboost additional sentries then, and cut his army in pieces as he walks up the ramp, try not to lose your blocking zealot to the roaches, if you do, send a stalker as blocker.
it's important to react instantly and to scout as long as you can to beat this build. haven't tested it with only 1 cannon yet, i feel a lot safer with 2. you'll still come out ahead with this defense, as you go on producing probes as soon as you threw down the canons.
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Haha this is such a fun opening to do, I even do it on 2v2s and expand behind the aggresion. Mad props, sir.
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I did 3RR for a while in custom and ranked and had good succes with it. Than I ecountered a protoss player who did 1gate robo and managed to get one immortal out just before my 3 roaches reached his ramp after he scouted my roach warren. He quickly sniped my roaches and protected his immortal using his probes as meatshield so my speedlings couldnt get a good surround. After my push failed he quickly did a counter attack and handed my ass to me in a fairly short time. At that point I stopped doing this strat and focussed on my macro openings again.
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The way to deal with this is to keep your probe alive near his natural to see if he has expanded by around 20 supply (if you manage to scout the RR, then your golden), then slam down a forge and a second gateway, move the zealot out of the choke and wall off completely with a pylon. make 2-3 cannons behind the gateway, while u keep chronoing out probes. The zerg has invested so much into this attack, even if he tries to transition to an expansion without attacking, a 4 gate would kill him.
If you hold it off, you will be 10 workers ahead and the zerg will either have to keep suiciding units to bust the wall or expand. Then you transition to a 4 gate and a move.
edit: replay of me holding it ~3000 diamond http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140631-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
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Which maps should I avoid doing this strategy?
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On February 17 2011 15:03 ktgster wrote:The way to deal with this is to keep your probe alive near his natural to see if he has expanded by around 20 supply (if you manage to scout the RR, then your golden), then slam down a forge and a second gateway, move the zealot out of the choke and wall off completely with a pylon. make 2-3 cannons behind the gateway, while u keep chronoing out probes. The zerg has invested so much into this attack, even if he tries to transition to an expansion without attacking, a 4 gate would kill him. If you hold it off, you will be 10 workers ahead and the zerg will either have to keep suiciding units to bust the wall or expand. Then you transition to a 4 gate and a move. edit: replay of me holding it ~3000 diamond http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140631-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
Lol... 3-4 cannons? That is way overkill... Also, you don't even need a forge. The roach warren goes down at 3 mins. you can just keep your probe near his nat until then and when you see it, chrono boost your cyber the whole way through as you pump out sentries. There are a few ways to defend this. Forge makes it super ez, but it's not necessary.
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Ppl losing to this would as well lose to a 6 pool time wise you d better perfect your 6 pool just sayin
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Guys, you do not need cannons to defend this rush. You can defend it with a standard 3Gate Sentry expo build if you chrono WG all the way, and it's not hard to scout.
As soon as you see a quick pool/gas, begin saving Chronoboost, using 2 MAX on Probes. Send your scouting Probe back in around 20 food to see if the Zerg is continuing to mine gas. If they are, that should be a tell-tale sign, not to mention you can find the Roach Warren easily with this build, as there are no Lings or Queen to deny scouting.
Once you see it coming, cut Probes to get your 2nd/3rd Gates faster, then Chrono once on a Sentry (maybe 2x in close positions, not sure) and use the rest on Warpgate. By the time the rush arrives, you should be able to use 2 Forcefields to delay it, and begin a complete walloff with either a Pylon or a Forge.
This gives your Warpgate Tech enough time to finish, and you can Warp in another Sentry to cut his forces in half as he moves up the ramp and a pair of Stalkers to deal damage. From there you are so far ahead in workers and he literally cant get past your wall. You've won the game, and didn't even have to varaiate far from a standard opening. You can walk down your ramp, simcity and expand like usual.
This build definitely punishes players who blindly Chrono Probes all the way and don't scout it, but it's far from unbeatable even with a standard opening.
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There's no point in getting fancy. Seeing an -early- roach attack coming (pretty damn easily scout-able) means drop a forge and 2 cannons and you win.
It's the right response to this rush just like it's the right response to the 3 roach @ 3:33 rush. With a probe in the enemy base you will see it coming in time to stop it. The reason you don't need to worry about getting fancy is simple - these all-in's are game enders for zerg if they can't punch through your wall. Block the ramp completely with a pylon instead of a zealot and laugh as the cannons tear them up, then roll over them as your warpgates come online. They will be so far behind there is literally nothing they can do. You can theoretically stop these rushes with a sentry or two but why even risk it when you have such an easy and virtually guaranteed way to stop them?
Hell, 2 cannons will stop a well performed 4:45 7RR all-in with drones AND a queen for gods sake. They are super-effective .
Now, proxy roach warrens get a bit trickier, but you can usually tell what's coming simply by a lack of drones, early gas, and no expo. Also, a proxied warren slows any RR by a decent amount of seconds, giving you time to have more defenses and units in place. I'm still fiddling with the idea of proxy warren surprise attacks, but the warning signs are just too obvious to a good protoss enemy and once those cannons go up the Z may as well just quit.
In any event, you'll steal some easy wins with a strategy like this - but I'd argue those games could have been just as easily won a few minutes prior using a fast 3RR. If they let 3 roaches punch a hole in their wall after 5:00+, you could have trashed him at 4:00. It's proof of the effectiveness of these sorts of rushes vs people who don't know the timings and danger they are in, but it is an absolutely roflfail strategy vs anyone who knows the proper responses.
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pls dont abuse larva injection system.idont like this kind of strats anymore.and it is very counterable.i am a toss player and one cannon or crono centry kill this.
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Small little add-on, if i may, a good trick to getting ahead in tech early in the game while doing this BO, take ur first 2 zerglings u make and try to deny pylon setdowns or kill off a few of the probes in the enemy toss mineral line, cuz by this point i'm sure they don't have a zealot out, depending on the type of build he/she is going for. But the best thing to do is to deny the pylon from blocking too much(even if its only for a few seconds, every second counts).
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On March 05 2011 05:21 Ncinerate wrote:
There's no point in getting fancy. Seeing an -early- roach attack coming (pretty damn easily scout-able) means drop a forge and 2 cannons and you win.
If you scout it, it's pretty easy to defend without cannons and be further ahead. Just wall your ramp completely with your 2nd or 3rd gateway and make stalkers. If Z throws all his units at your wall, you'll kill most of his stuff before he can kill a gate, and you'll have warpgates done in time to warp in zealots to clean up any leftovers. This cheese is only dangerous if you don't see it coming or don't know how to respond.
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I actually haven't seen this on the ladder for a while. I think now that people know how to defend it, its popularity has fizzled.
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This build got me through gold to high platinum in about 3 days! Such a great strategy, and I love love love bathing in those Protoss QQ tears as they call it cheese as if they weren't preparing their 4 gate for a minute later! Obviously I don't use this build every game as I don't want to stunt my growth as a macro player, but it sure is nice to have this in my back pocket when I'm playing my Friends 1v1! Basically it forces Protoss players to be a little more defensive and stop being so damn greedy EVERY time they face a Zerg!
Thanks a lot for this build it definitely helped!
(ps I am not trying to say this build is unbeatable but it
sure is nice, especially in the lower leagues where I am)
I also wouldn't call this a TOTAL all in. If I see a forge and cannons up I simply halt ling production, expand immediately, and pump drones. Don't even attack; save the units and switch to a macro style. You can still win.
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So i'm a 2200 Diamond, so nothing really high.
I did this for my last 10 ZvP, and i won my last 10 ZvP (against even 3200 Diamond Protoss).
When i scout with the overlord and i see a standard Protoss build with a gate and a cyb.core at the ramp, i know it's basicaly gg. The funniest thing that happened is when I had a 3000 protoss saying "Nice cheating, you're gonna get banned" when he saw the 25 lings coming after the 3 roachs.
If i see a forge at the ramp, i juste kill the probe with my first 2 lings, cancel the roach warren and make tons of drones while the protoss make tons of canons instead of gateways/probes
If i see a forge at the natural, i just double expand. Something like 15 Pool, 21 Hatch, 22 Hatch.
So..So far, it worked wonder. Thanks.
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3RR is not a good build I wouldnt advice any zerg to use this. You are relying on your opponent being bad and thats no way to improve your game. But sure, you can cheese every once in a while just for the lulz.
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On March 18 2011 23:22 koveras wrote:
3RR is not a good build I wouldnt advice any zerg to use this. You are relying on your opponent being bad and thats no way to improve your game. But sure, you can cheese every once in a while just for the lulz.
plz give more quantifiable proof before you spew shit out
I played a few random custom games against a few Protoss players on Xel Naga Caverns. None are really worth uploading except MAYBE one, but even then it's meh. The effectiveness of the build can still be seen in it.
I sent a drone up initially to see if he was pulling any proxy pylon business (I did the build against him the game before), and that drone scout timing caused my third roach to be off by a few seconds. also mistimed metabolic boost a bit I think, should have gotten that before my initial lings.
Anyway, this works pretty well with the current PvZ style that people play these days. The next time I play a Protoss on ladder I'll save the replay and upload it (I'm playing mostly high diamond/low masters players)
Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/1826
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REPLAY 1: http://drop.sc/1827 Me vs 3100 Master
Lost this one. He saw it coming and countered with 1 gate void ray and cannon at the ramp. I should have had an overlord to snipe the zealots guarding the choke to mitigate so many casualties.
REPLAY 2: http://drop.sc/1830 Me vs another 3100 Master
This time I win. He obviously has faced this before and opts to stick with gateway units with cannons to supplement. There a few blunders by both of us this game, and I could make excuses all day as to why I played kinda shitty but I'll just say that we both could use some refinement. Either way, this replay shows fairly well the potential of the build if executed properly
I plan on gathering up a few more replays and I'll upload them all tonight or tomorrowish for anybody that wants 'em
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 19 2011 06:03 Bobo_XIII wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 23:22 koveras wrote:
3RR is not a good build I wouldnt advice any zerg to use this. You are relying on your opponent being bad and thats no way to improve your game. But sure, you can cheese every once in a while just for the lulz. plz give more quantifiable proof before you spew shit out I played a few random custom games against a few Protoss players on Xel Naga Caverns. None are really worth uploading except MAYBE one, but even then it's meh. The effectiveness of the build can still be seen in it. I sent a drone up initially to see if he was pulling any proxy pylon business (I did the build against him the game before), and that drone scout timing caused my third roach to be off by a few seconds. also mistimed metabolic boost a bit I think, should have gotten that before my initial lings. Anyway, this works pretty well with the current PvZ style that people play these days. The next time I play a Protoss on ladder I'll save the replay and upload it (I'm playing mostly high diamond/low masters players) Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/1826
Its very simple, you are cutting drones and expanding late to do a powerfull early push in the hopes of winning the game right there. Because you are not able to get a few lings out to intercept the scouting probe makes it so that your roach warren will always be scouted unless your opponent is bad/lazy. Than protoss only has to counter this build, take the macro advantage and win. This can be done by throwing down a forge and make a photo cannon or having an early robo bay and chrono out an immortal and surrounding it with probes. I played more than a few games using this build and when this gained in popularity protoss got smart and this strat stopped working entirely.
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In my relatively limited experience, perhaps against players not executing this properly, if you scout it in time you can blow chronos on Warpgate Research + Sentries, get 3 gateways asap, and FF your rap constantly until you can break any attempted contain.
At most, you're going to lose your gateway (or your core, but thats why you dont build your core on the edge), but thats not a sufficient amount of damage to put the zerg back on even ground, let alone ahead.
Granted, it does require that you save chronos for a certain sector of time, which could be fairly major if you miss a 14hatch or something (although how you'd manage that I have no idea).
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Congrats on 2-0'ing Tyler wzp! Game one you used this build and narrowly escaped the void ray. The refinement you put into it gave you those extra seconds to stop the void from popping. I think in the 2nd game Tyler just played badly, like really bad. I think he didn't know the map and canceled his gateway like 15 seconds into it and remade it. Should have done the build twice. lol. Would have absolutely destroyed him the 2nd time because of the gateway canceling blunder costing him 15-20 seconds.
Its nice to have at least an option to punish Toss that think they can 3 gate, mass an army, get an expo, upgrade and tech all at once. FFS!
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On March 11 2011 07:28 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 05:21 Ncinerate wrote:
There's no point in getting fancy. Seeing an -early- roach attack coming (pretty damn easily scout-able) means drop a forge and 2 cannons and you win.
If you scout it, it's pretty easy to defend without cannons and be further ahead. Just wall your ramp completely with your 2nd or 3rd gateway and make stalkers. If Z throws all his units at your wall, you'll kill most of his stuff before he can kill a gate, and you'll have warpgates done in time to warp in zealots to clean up any leftovers. This cheese is only dangerous if you don't see it coming or don't know how to respond.
kcdc, the problem with this is that roaches w/ a overlord to spot the high ground take out your cyber core before you ever get a chance to get WG research or stalkers. whenever i play vs a well timed roach/ling rush it hits right as i am getting my second sentry (zealot > sentry > 2nd sentry) so i have enough energy for 1 force field, 2 if i chrono boost the sentry, but during this entire time the zerg, instead of breaking the zealot and running in with speedlings, focuses down the cybernetics core and what are you left with? 1 zeal and 2 sentries, maybe one stalker. and two gates that have just come online (which wont help vs the mass speedlings that are rushing into your mineral line.
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On March 05 2011 05:21 Ncinerate wrote:There's no point in getting fancy. Seeing an -early- roach attack coming (pretty damn easily scout-able) means drop a forge and 2 cannons and you win. It's the right response to this rush just like it's the right response to the 3 roach @ 3:33 rush. With a probe in the enemy base you will see it coming in time to stop it. The reason you don't need to worry about getting fancy is simple - these all-in's are game enders for zerg if they can't punch through your wall. Block the ramp completely with a pylon instead of a zealot and laugh as the cannons tear them up, then roll over them as your warpgates come online. They will be so far behind there is literally nothing they can do. You can theoretically stop these rushes with a sentry or two but why even risk it when you have such an easy and virtually guaranteed way to stop them? Hell, 2 cannons will stop a well performed 4:45 7RR all-in with drones AND a queen for gods sake. They are super-effective . Now, proxy roach warrens get a bit trickier, but you can usually tell what's coming simply by a lack of drones, early gas, and no expo. Also, a proxied warren slows any RR by a decent amount of seconds, giving you time to have more defenses and units in place. I'm still fiddling with the idea of proxy warren surprise attacks, but the warning signs are just too obvious to a good protoss enemy and once those cannons go up the Z may as well just quit. In any event, you'll steal some easy wins with a strategy like this - but I'd argue those games could have been just as easily won a few minutes prior using a fast 3RR. If they let 3 roaches punch a hole in their wall after 5:00+, you could have trashed him at 4:00. It's proof of the effectiveness of these sorts of rushes vs people who don't know the timings and danger they are in, but it is an absolutely roflfail strategy vs anyone who knows the proper responses.
WTF how do zergs proxy buildings...
User was warned for this post
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^ Build a hatch...then cancel and immediately build roach warren
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I hadn't done this in awhile but I was in a weird mood so I just won 5 games with it. Pretty hilarious how few people know how to prepare for it still, I throw down the roach warren right in front of their probe and it still kills them.
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I'm high Diamond/low Masters (been winning a lot so I'm playing masters players now :-) finally)
I recently beat this build, or at least something similar, in the form of a 3rr w/ speedlings. I just Forge FE and made cannons. Cannons are the counter to every Zerg cheese as Protoss. And since you will have a huge boost of minerals from the two nexus, you can easily plop down 3-4 cannons. Once 4 cannons are out and you have 4-5 units as toss, there is no way a 1 basing Zerg is gonna touch your natural or your main (Assuming you walled off so he cant ramp rush you).
It was on Typhoon Peaks. and he got into my main but i just ran my probes to my cannons at my natural and let my 4-5 zealots clean up his lings. Ya I lost a lot of probes, probably 15 or so, but I still had more than his 14. And remember, you only need 1 geyser early on, just for cyber WG research and a healthy stalker flow. If Zerg is All-in, just spam 3 gates, a cybercore, probes, zealots and cannons. And chrono the zealots, then laugh at his frustration.
The most important thing with Forge FE is knowing what Zerg is making. Watch TT1 who loves this style and he always has a probe scouting to count expos (even possible hidden ones), drone saturation, and unit composition. And once he loses the probe he just sends another one. Remember you will have a hefty supply of probes with this build so just keep scouting, its better than dying to cheese (until ling speed finishes, he cant deny probes so remember that).
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On April 09 2011 05:16 Treemonkeys wrote:
I hadn't done this in awhile but I was in a weird mood so I just won 5 games with it. Pretty hilarious how few people know how to prepare for it still, I throw down the roach warren right in front of their probe and it still kills them.
Most people who want to allin on ladder don't play zerg - the other races have better allins. That means that most protosses on ladder probably don't know about the zerg allins that do exist, since they almost never encounter it.
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Its the most OP 1 base strat out there.
Roaches at half the cost of stalkers and able to shred Zealots. . . You're basically forcing protoss to build a forge + cannons and when they do that you get to build drones for free.
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OP? no. if you scout the roach warren you need to chrono out sentries. not warpgate tech! This is a really good strat for the zerg to know, but should not be used every ZvP as it is risky
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Ruyguy you just did this to me in a custom game lol. I think you have to complete the wallin with a pylon to beat this. Just chronoing sentries alone won't be sufficient.
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haha I was actually doing this build against protoss tonight for 2 reasons:
1. Lost to a nexus first on Shattered Temple when I scouted it, I 1 based roach and ling all in and still couldnt break it.
2. Lost to 2 4 gates on ladder. Not fun.
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I hope I didn`t BM you it wasn't the best ladder night.
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I'm currently a zerg player, but I used to play toss, and I have to wonder - how does a toss can differentiate between this build and a roach - expand start? It looks kinda similar from the opponents point of view....
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No zergs go for roach expands. If they do, they are either bad or very far behind.
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Yeah just scout if they go roach warren right after pool when you see the fast pool+gas. I usually just make a forge and 1 or 2 cannons which holds it off easy. By then you're so far ahead in workers it doesn't really matter what you do to finish it off.
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I've only encountered 1 protoss player who knew how to counter this. I allowed him to scout since I had defeated about 12-13 protoss players in a row with it and felt too confident.
My problem now is that whenever I do play a protoss player, I 14 hatch and transition to lings/roaches to counter early aggression while maintaining an economic advantage. If I scout my opponent going forge first and I've already put my roach warden down, what do I do?
As I see it I'll be far behind
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On April 24 2011 18:17 Drowsy wrote:
Ruyguy you just did this to me in a custom game lol. I think you have to complete the wallin with a pylon to beat this. Just chronoing sentries alone won't be sufficient.
You have to fully wall off with gates while only pumping out stalkers, take probes off 2nd gas, cut probes at 3rd pylon (22-23).
You need 3 gates total, so where you would normally put a pylon, you would put a gate there (2 gates), and another gate behind the targeted building. Eventually you'll have 3-5 stalkers and from there chrono out a sentry.
Don't chrono wg, only chrono stalkers. He'll be on 1 base, and most zergs usually KEEP on pumping out units because droning will just give a huge timing window that protoss can kill zerg.
If you lose to the next swarm of units, it doesn't matter if you have more probes.
Just slowly mass up a ball and attack right away if you see 5-12 drones in natural (with hidden scouts). Don't attack if you see a huge army.
Expand when you feel that he won't attack/if you feel safe.
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This is a good build for a Zerg to know and have in their bag of tricks. At lower leagues like mine, even with some errors in execution (in my case, most often being a bit late starting ling speed upgrade), it is pretty much an auto win against Protoss who is just doing a 4gate build on autopilot with one or two units at their ramp to hold things and using all their chrono on probes and warpgate research instead of building units.
I recommend all low league Zerg who have been demoralized by losing to a billion 4gates to give this a try, it's very good for the morale to own a lot of 4gate builds hard. You should be under no illusion that it will make you a better player for long macro games, but the wins are very enjoyable.
I agree that since Zerg all-ins and cheese are the least effective of the 3 races, people expect cheese less often and therefore often don't respond properly even when scouting the early roach warren and no expansion.
I've also used this a lot in 2v2 and it's a pretty good build there also, the roaches give some ranged punching power to get through weak wall-ins, and the speedlings do most of the killing. My partner just masses marines and the combo works well.
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I've been doing this, but right when I hit 75gas for roaches I pull the workers off gas and put them back on minerals. I also use the first zergling pair to check their ramp- if I see they've adequately prepared (chrono'd out units//dropped forge+cannons), I turn that first inject (which I would turn into zerglings otherwise) into drones and expand; usually churn out drones until the next inject then switch back to unit production to fend off an incomming 4gate (+1 or 2 spine crawlers as well for defense)
Ive felt pretty equal with my opponent and a lot of the times i've lost are due to my own screw ups.
Otherwise, I expand as my attack hits because the drones back on minerals will give me ~300 min as the attack begins. Still need to refine my macro while microing during the battle, as everytime I have my minerals start building up because I didn't drop the xpansion at the best time//put drones back on gas to tech up to lair.
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I honestly don't get it. This build is SOO easy to stop. I stop it with 3 gate sentry expand all the time, even if I don't see it coming. The thing is though, it's also very easy to scout, so it's even easier then. All I do is chrono my warpgate all the way while making sentries. I can keep the ramp ff for long enough for my warpgate to finish and then I'm good. If you're not comfortable doing that, than just put a forge up and one cannon with a couple sentries and gg. This build is so dumb. Easily scoutable, easily stopped.
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On April 25 2011 02:46 Acridice wrote:
I honestly don't get it. This build is SOO easy to stop. I stop it with 3 gate sentry expand all the time, even if I don't see it coming. The thing is though, it's also very easy to scout, so it's even easier then. All I do is chrono my warpgate all the way while making sentries. I can keep the ramp ff for long enough for my warpgate to finish and then I'm good. If you're not comfortable doing that, than just put a forge up and one cannon with a couple sentries and gg. This build is so dumb. Easily scoutable, easily stopped.
Actually, I feel you seem to miss the point of the build. Of course, 3 roaches and a bunch of speedlings is easy to stop. Come on, who can't do that? However, I feel you haven't yet faced someone, say wzp, who can do it so perfectly and that comes so fast that you don't have the time to have more than one sentry(maybe two) to stop it. I understand you have faced it, but it probably wasn't quite as fast as this one, like 10-15 seconds later, which gives you time to get that extra sentry. Without that extra forcefield, this build kills you. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you have faced the wzp build yet.
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On April 25 2011 03:26 ZealotKiller wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 02:46 Acridice wrote:
I honestly don't get it. This build is SOO easy to stop. I stop it with 3 gate sentry expand all the time, even if I don't see it coming. The thing is though, it's also very easy to scout, so it's even easier then. All I do is chrono my warpgate all the way while making sentries. I can keep the ramp ff for long enough for my warpgate to finish and then I'm good. If you're not comfortable doing that, than just put a forge up and one cannon with a couple sentries and gg. This build is so dumb. Easily scoutable, easily stopped. Actually, I feel you seem to miss the point of the build. Of course, 3 roaches and a bunch of speedlings is easy to stop. Come on, who can't do that? However, I feel you haven't yet faced someone, say wzp, who can do it so perfectly and that comes so fast that you don't have the time to have more than one sentry(maybe two) to stop it. I understand you have faced it, but it probably wasn't quite as fast as this one, like 10-15 seconds later, which gives you time to get that extra sentry. Without that extra forcefield, this build kills you. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you have faced the wzp build yet.
How the fcuk do you know? Sure, the guy has a pretty crappy attitude, but so do you. He's not missing the point of the build, and wzp said HIMSELF that if you get scouted, you're probably dead.
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On April 25 2011 02:46 Acridice wrote:
I honestly don't get it. This build is SOO easy to stop. I stop it with 3 gate sentry expand all the time, even if I don't see it coming. The thing is though, it's also very easy to scout, so it's even easier then. All I do is chrono my warpgate all the way while making sentries. I can keep the ramp ff for long enough for my warpgate to finish and then I'm good. If you're not comfortable doing that, than just put a forge up and one cannon with a couple sentries and gg. This build is so dumb. Easily scoutable, easily stopped.
This person is incredibly right, even without scouting you will have 1 sentry out with a second 1 out or VERY close to out (I always chrono once on the second or first sentry). You caneasily chrono out the third sentry and FF the ramp forever. By the time he hits you @ 5:50 you will have warpgates almost finished, just forcefield a few times and warp in 1 sentry+2 stalkers (or 3 stalkers if you have enough energy) when warpgates finish and crush him and expand.
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Have you considered the overlord spotting for high vision?
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When I've faced this build, the OV is always there, and it is still no problem. As long as you keep your units back and don't lose any from the low ground you're good. I also assume this build hits at 5:00, and if that's the case, I can have the ramp perma FF from 5 min onward. Also, even if you don't believe me on this point, my other point still holds.
It is very easily scoutable. The 13 pool/12 gas is pretty obvious, so if I suspecxt this, I hide a probe and send it in right around 4 min. I then get to see the roach warren about 3/4 of the way through. If you don't have confidence in your ability to hold it with sentries, you can just throw up forge +1 cannon, 2 for safe measure, and then you don't even have to try to hold it off. It's a walk in the park with a forge.
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Oh, also if anyone wants to "show" me how they can beat me with this build, I am glad to "show" you wrong. I will play as if I don't know it's coming. Never throw down a forge, and hold it with ease, by going 3 gate sentries. Acridice.147, send me a PM
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so what you just goin 3 gate with gas heavy sentries every time you face a zerg just to be safe?
besides the builds ment to hit when u have 1 sentry unless ur 1st 2 units were sentries too it will hit and it will get up your ramp and then aditional sentries wont be that useful
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On April 25 2011 07:39 Acridice wrote:
Oh, also if anyone wants to "show" me how they can beat me with this build, I am glad to "show" you wrong. I will play as if I don't know it's coming. Never throw down a forge, and hold it with ease, by going 3 gate sentries. Acridice.147, send me a PM
Message wzp. I remember him playing Minigun, so I think he's near that level (I think Minigun is much better though, however, he lost to this build).
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On April 25 2011 07:42 OzkanTheFlip wrote:
so what you just goin 3 gate with gas heavy sentries every time you face a zerg just to be safe?
besides the builds ment to it when u have 1 sentry unless ur 1st 2 units were sentries too it will hit and it will get up your ramp and then aditional sentries wont be that useful
The fuck does that mean dude? Use sentences.
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i see he cant read either
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ill put it in simpler terms for you
when roaches get there you have no more than 1 sentry
when that sentry uses its forcefield the roaches and lings get into your base and then nullifying any other sentry you warp in later
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"besides the builds ment to it when u have 1 sentry unless ure 1st 2 units were sentries too it will hit and it will get up your ramp... " really dude?
And btw, if you're implying that sentry heavy builds are not good against zerg, then you are obviously clueless. The safest build you can do is a 3 gate sentry expand, and I think it's a given that you get a zealot first....
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did you even read the "for dummies" version of my statment
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when did i ever say sentries werent good? i said you wouldnt have that many by the time it attacks
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I guarantee you I have 2 sentries when he hits + a 3rd on the way and warpgate almost done. I'm looking for a decent zerg still to play against to show you that a 3 gate sentry build holds this. I used hold it at masters all the time. Also, I say used to hold it all the time because I think most competent zergs have recognized that this build does not work. And when I say I'm looking for zergs, I have already PM'd wzp.
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On April 25 2011 08:31 Acridice wrote:
I guarantee you I have 2 sentries when he hits + a 3rd on the way and warpgate almost done. I'm looking for a decent zerg still to play against to show you that a 3 gate sentry build holds this. I used hold it at masters all the time. Also, I say used to hold it all the time because I think most competent zergs have recognized that this build does not work. And when I say I'm looking for zergs, I have already PM'd wzp.
I'm not sure anyone disputes if you blindly do a cheese your opponent might blindly counter, especially if you're playing the metagame and you KNOW what he's doing without scouting. Yes, you can beat any build with another build if you prepare it ahead of time.
How do you know its this build? How soon do you scout it?
Unless your mechanics and timing are perfect (as required for this build), chances are you will be "caught off guard" and then you'll be mad that you lost to a dumb cheese.
I don't think you really need to drill into the community that you can beat it, just like nobody would drill into the community that cannon rushes are cheesy, risky and beatable too. The fact is cannon rushes will still happen and so will this, and the build is very effective against anything but a sentry or cannon-centric opening.
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On April 25 2011 08:48 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 08:31 Acridice wrote:
I guarantee you I have 2 sentries when he hits + a 3rd on the way and warpgate almost done. I'm looking for a decent zerg still to play against to show you that a 3 gate sentry build holds this. I used hold it at masters all the time. Also, I say used to hold it all the time because I think most competent zergs have recognized that this build does not work. And when I say I'm looking for zergs, I have already PM'd wzp. I'm not sure anyone disputes if you blindly do a cheese your opponent might blindly counter, especially if you're playing the metagame and you KNOW what he's doing without scouting. Yes, you can beat any build with another build if you prepare it ahead of time. How do you know its this build? How soon do you scout it? Unless your mechanics and timing are perfect (as required for this build), chances are you will be "caught off guard" and then you'll be mad that you lost to a dumb cheese. I don't think you really need to drill into the community that you can beat it, just like nobody would drill into the community that cannon rushes are cheesy, risky and beatable too. The fact is cannon rushes will still happen and so will this, and the build is very effective against anything but a sentry or cannon-centric opening.
A lot of protoss play a very safe 3 sentry FE, that build holds it(because the toss has 2 sentries already with a third on the way). Also you can scout the roach warren going down sometimes by hiding your probe a little because the default few lings will be out later because of the roach warren going down so early. If you scout the warren and dont have 2 gas yet, you might have to use a forge + 1 or 2 cannons to hold it. But with the 3gate sentry FE build, you cannot lose to this unless you miss a forcefield or something.
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You must have missed my other posts. I have also stated how easy this build is to scout as well. The 13pool/12gas is actually pretty easy to scout. zerg 13 food = protoss 13 food, and then if you suspect it, you hid your probe until 4 min, then run it in and see the roach warren. you should always be able to see the roach warren also, because he won't have speed at 4min. If by some chance you don't get in to see it, just play it safe and make sentries.
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So this build is down to a second, your post is saying stuff like "if you get speed 2 seconds late he'll have 3 sentries and you're dead" without mentioning rush distances even once.
So my question is, is this a guide for close pos Metalopolis, Xel'Naga or maybe Tal'darim?
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On April 25 2011 09:17 haylmfao wrote:
So this build is down to a second, your post is saying stuff like "if you get speed 2 seconds late he'll have 3 sentries and you're dead" without mentioning rush distances even once.
So my question is, is this a guide for close pos Metalopolis, Xel'Naga or maybe Tal'darim?
The mentioning of map distances is only partially relevant to this build. Speedlings travel incredibly fast and are able to close the distance very well on long rush distances. The build execution, on the other hand, is core. Your timing is before the third sentry gets out; any delays in your build order will set you behind considerably. Get speed to late and you've lost
I personally have died to this on Xel'Naga caverns, definately works there. Metalopolis far spawn you need that overlord on its way there very early, its rather difficult. Tal'Darim has the advantage of wide "ramp" with no high ground to deny vision, so even crossmap the rush does well. Distance isn't much of a concern.
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I just barely beat this strat as a toss twenty minutes ago.
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in my modest 500+ ladder games as a high diamond player, I find this build works against:
4gate
3gate expo
2gate stargate
3gate DT cheese
3gate robo
Forge FE is the best build for PvZ anyway, on most maps at least.
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I am no master but I use a similar build for 2v2s since I don't play 1's much. If you go 10 pool, drone, gas (delay mining til the OL pops), drone, lord, drone, warren to a total of 12 drones, the roaches are out the door at 4 min. Then you make a lord, 2 pairs of lings and a queen. You won't have speed done but it hits much earlier than 15 drone build, at which time the opponent would only have 1 unit. I have no seen anyone mentioning about it so I wonder if it works in 1's.
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I have updated the text with some transitions and tips for 4 player maps, better check it out
WZP WZP WZP WZP :O
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So yea this strat is going to be nulified if blizzard implements the decreased gateway unit times.
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On April 26 2011 07:24 wzp wrote:I have updated the text with some transitions and tips for 4 player maps, better check it out WZP WZP WZP WZP :O
Can you update the OP with some replays?
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I honestly don't think that WZP can upload recent replays because this build doesn't work anymore now that people know what it is.
Edit: This is meant to be a friendly challenge more than anything, and I'm still waiting on a reply to my PM WZP. : )
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I know this is slightly early to ask, but with the whole 1.3.3 patch hysteria going on right now, do you think the new patch will completely deny this build? Maybe only at around masters?(where execution is really supposed to be down to the last second)
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I am high diamond and open with this build almost exclusively in ZvP, simply because I really hate the matchup and just want to get it over with, one way or another. I have been using this build since it was originally posted.
This build continues to work for me probably 80-90% of the time. I see that this build is being questioned for some reason right now, but I assume that is more directed toward high level gameplay. I cannot speak to that, but up to and including high diamond play it is solid. I hope that lower league players do not question this build's strength in their leagues because of Aricide or others' posts.
I don't even send the overlord anymore. I usually run up the ramp with just the three roaches, snipe the zealot and then pour in the lings. When it fails, it is due to two sentries being out and good FF micro while awaiting the finish of warp gate tech. This build is very easy to scout (roach warren goes down before lings are on the map).- but I am finding that most players don't respond properly (up to high diamond).
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38 Posts
I'm curious how this build will work on 1.3.3 with the gateway unit build time decreases. Anyone tested on the PTR yet?
The reduced zealot time will definetely encourage 2gate. They increased it from 33 to 38 to discourage them, and now that its back to 33 it seems safe to assume that 2gate will increase in popularity. A super fast 2gate would seem to destroy this build. Even if it doesn't, the extra speed might get that critical extra sentry in, and with such razor fine timings i don't know if the build would be vaible. :\ Just theorycraft, but I can't get on to the PTR to test it.
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Because the roach warren goes up so early, I was able to hold proxy 2gate pretty easily the couple of times I faced it when using this build. I don't think that will change a lot under the new patch.
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38 Posts
Ok, that makes sense. It's the earlier sentries that I'm really worried about though. The 5 seconds isn't just a flat time decrease, it compounds. The first sentry is 5 secs earlier, the second 10, the third fifteen, and the supposedly undefeatable fourth is a full 20 seconds faster. That seems like trouble :\
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I propose a counter, by walling in so that the zealot is not adjacent to the cliff (should be possible), and forcefielding at the BOTTOM of the ramp. That way your zealot which is pinned, isn't going to be under roach fire. TAKE THAT you ruthless cheeser.
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It's always possible to lure the sentry out of position with an OL or something.
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I'm pretty sure 3gate Sentry expand hard counters this build. Good FFs can split off a Roach and kill it and delay until you hit critical Sentry mass, at which point no amount of Zerglings and Roaches can break that choke. The counterattack from Protoss is also very crippling. The Zerg should still be on T1 tech, and good Sentry micro can just crush that and destroy any expansion the Zerg is hoping to make, or at the very least secure an expansion for the Protoss.
I could be wrong, though. This is just as a Protoss player.
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The attack is designed to hit before you have enough sentries to hold them off. By the time they hit your base you have 1-2 sentries, and after the FF wears off, they can charge in.
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I was trying this build on ladder and i met protoss, which countered it on metalopolis ... by 2 gate (not proxy) zealot push. Roaches were not fast enough out to deal with them and when they pop, damage was already done.
Problem is, that there is no scout ... is there a way to hold it off? (Sorry no replay attached, my computer ate them all)
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i think it will still be able to work on 1.3.3, due to the highly gas cost of the sentry, spaming it too early in the game might just mess up the new timing that will come up, ill test it on the 1.3.3 and see what it happens, im actually more worried about the zerg FE beign imposible cuz of the 2 gate rush will work again , but this rush will still kick, it never misses .
any1 want replays? pm me to wzp.554 and ill send some.
WZP WZP WZP WZP : O!
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do you have EU account? i'd like to see some replays but i dont have US account so i cant PM you
- edit - i guess i just did one of the dumbest post ever xd can u pm me those reps on TL here?
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You know I've been playing with this build, I really like it because you don't have to adjust your build to do it, you can use it after reacting to what you scout (ie as opposed to 6 pool).
If you send a 9 or 10 scout, you can get to close spawns on Metal/Shattered soon enough that you can respond in time to do this , instead of say, 14 gas or 15 hatch or whatever builds. This is the reaason I really really love this build! Whenever I spawn close spawns on ZvP, I just do this build because its total BS as it is, but this build is awesome.
I've been playing around a bit, and I noticed you can really throw gas and pool at 14g/13p too - you just drone up to 15 and everything 'falls in place' - you can get queen, all that, you may just be off a few seconds as opposed to 'optimal' BO.
Really strong build. I like to make an evo chamber when the money starts to rack up at the end. I think maybe leaving a few guys in gas for more roaches or something may be a better idea, as there seems to be just a drone or two too many.
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On July 01 2011 06:13 Belial88 wrote:
You know I've been playing with this build, I really like it because you don't have to adjust your build to do it, you can use it after reacting to what you scout (ie as opposed to 6 pool).
If you send a 9 or 10 scout, you can get to close spawns on Metal/Shattered soon enough that you can respond in time to do this , instead of say, 14 gas or 15 hatch or whatever builds. This is the reaason I really really love this build! Whenever I spawn close spawns on ZvP, I just do this build because its total BS as it is, but this build is awesome.
I've been playing around a bit, and I noticed you can really throw gas and pool at 14g/13p too - you just drone up to 15 and everything 'falls in place' - you can get queen, all that, you may just be off a few seconds as opposed to 'optimal' BO.
Really strong build. I like to make an evo chamber when the money starts to rack up at the end. I think maybe leaving a few guys in gas for more roaches or something may be a better idea, as there seems to be just a drone or two too many.
This stops working once you get out of diamond, by the way. Sentry build time is shorter and the timing was close enough before. Maybe you should make a thread about it.
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Title of the post included the phrase "all-in".
Part of the post included "Transition", immediately stopped reading.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 01 2011 08:23 CCalms wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 06:13 Belial88 wrote:
You know I've been playing with this build, I really like it because you don't have to adjust your build to do it, you can use it after reacting to what you scout (ie as opposed to 6 pool).
If you send a 9 or 10 scout, you can get to close spawns on Metal/Shattered soon enough that you can respond in time to do this , instead of say, 14 gas or 15 hatch or whatever builds. This is the reaason I really really love this build! Whenever I spawn close spawns on ZvP, I just do this build because its total BS as it is, but this build is awesome.
I've been playing around a bit, and I noticed you can really throw gas and pool at 14g/13p too - you just drone up to 15 and everything 'falls in place' - you can get queen, all that, you may just be off a few seconds as opposed to 'optimal' BO.
Really strong build. I like to make an evo chamber when the money starts to rack up at the end. I think maybe leaving a few guys in gas for more roaches or something may be a better idea, as there seems to be just a drone or two too many. This stops working once you get out of diamond, by the way. Sentry build time is shorter and the timing was close enough before. Maybe you should make a thread about it.
1500 masters and I still have a very, very high win-rate with this build (in the written form) in close positions. Hell, I've even won with it the couple times I tried it in cross positions or on XNC. It's actually incredibly powerful at all levels short of (I would imagine) the very top of the ladder. P just don't know how to deal with it, and respond in all the wrong ways.
The patch that buffed sentry build time actually buffed this build by delaying warpgate by 20 seconds, imo. In my experience, usually, a P would win by stalling until warpgate finished, then warping in 3 units to break the push. Now, he can't do that--you have 20 more seconds before warpgate finishes to break him before he gets that big warp-in. And once you're in his base, the warp-in can't save him from the stream of lings.
On July 01 2011 11:13 Blimp wrote:
Title of the post included the phrase "all-in".
Part of the post included "Transition", immediately stopped reading.
Be a bit more open-minded. An all-in is a build that needs to do tons of damage. The "transition" section says that if he held without sacrificing economy, you transition to losing the game. The other transitions assume you did varying but significant amounts of damage (e.g. forced cannons, killed probes) and want to know how to win from there.
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my build chronoboosts sentries. if you come up against a player who is doing that, you're probably fucked, they can forcefield the ramp permanently as they establish 4-gate and then you're dead.
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How to Deal with them if there are cannons? should we for sure change the build and stop the rush?
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On August 09 2011 01:16 Ryuk_J wrote:
How to Deal with them if there are cannons? should we for sure change the build and stop the rush?
depends on positioning of said cannon, more often than not you will be able to pick off a building. he's gonna have one hell of a time defending this if he forge FE'd (map dependent).
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EPT
