Hidden Expansions are usually not used in League/Ladder Games, but why? In lower level play(I'm a silver league) they usually don't scout it until it's A) either almost mined out and already gave you an advantage that losing it doesn't really matter, or B)They don't find it at all, or if they're lucky C) They found it, you lost minerals. But in lower level play, whats wrong with a hidden expo? When I get mine I usually leave it unprotected and just mine it with workers i made there. I won't Transfer any so it leaves the risk of them seeing "Oh wonder why a bunch of workers are going toward the other side of the Map" THis is of course in lower level play and if you keep units on the watchtowers, you will be fine. The benefits seem to outweigh the risks. Discuss this below

Edit: Btw I meant usually when you don't guard them since I'm toss and you won't get there fast enough

Evoshadow

United States88 Posts

February 02 2011 22:59 GMT

Hidden expos are fine, even the pros use them, the thing you see lower level players do which is foolish is making a hidden expansion instead of constructing at an easy to defend natural. It is almost never a better idea to take a hidden second instead of your natural

Railgan

Switzerland1507 Posts

February 02 2011 22:59 GMT

i as zerg always have one ling patroling each expanson

Mafs

Canada458 Posts

February 02 2011 23:02 GMT

lower level play they are very good. But even in diamond league, if you do some 1 base all in and the opponent notices that you have more units then you should, they will scout all the expansions and probably kill yours. As zerg its easier to sneak in a third without the enemy noticing, but its so risky because they can just attack your main and you lose right there. With terran/protoss you will still be creating units.

Kyadytim

United States886 Posts

February 02 2011 23:03 GMT

Taking a "hidden" expo is basically hoping that your opponent doesn't scout it, because if you can't defend it. If you can defend it, it's not "hidden," just a normal expansion. It may work, but a game plan that relies on your opponent making a mistake isn't really sound strategy.

infinity21

Canada6683 Posts

February 02 2011 23:06 GMT

If you think you're better than your opponent, there's no reason to try risky plays like hidden expos, especially in ladder games where you don't know your opponent's style.

bowserjratk

51 Posts

February 02 2011 23:08 GMT

I agree that at high level play it well, sucks but with protoss(which is my main race) it's really good. Most people don't realize that i have too much units, though it is mainly because i don't make that many all the time and also i focus on upgrades more. So anyways, if you focus more on upgrades/tech paths, they won't notice right? unless they scout you which you want to prevent.

And one ling at each expansion is a sort of costly when it is a map like lost temple or Kuhlau's Ravine.

And, unless it's late game and they don't have an expansion, why would you bother to scout it unless you have nothing better to do?

iChau

United States1210 Posts

February 02 2011 23:44 GMT

On February 03 2011 08:08 bowserjratk wrote:
I agree that at high level play it well, sucks but with protoss(which is my main race) it's really good. Most people don't realize that i have too much units, though it is mainly because i don't make that many all the time and also i focus on upgrades more. So anyways, if you focus more on upgrades/tech paths, they won't notice right? unless they scout you which you want to prevent.

And one ling at each expansion is a sort of costly when it is a map like lost temple or Kuhlau's Ravine.

And, unless it's late game and they don't have an expansion, why would you bother to scout it unless you have nothing better to do?

He means there's 1 ling running between expansions if I interpreted it correctly. Such as if you have 2 bases, his ling would be patrolling the 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

mizU

United States12125 Posts

February 03 2011 00:01 GMT

It depends.
Sometimes I'll do a four-gate, or early gate aggression, and it gets denied, thus giving Zerg a stronger army, meaning I can't expand. So I'll probably sneak an expo kind of near by until I can stabilize and tech/turtle.

Gojira621

United States374 Posts

February 03 2011 00:10 GMT

#10

Hmm I'm in the lower leagues, and this is actually kind of true. There's plenty of times where I could have thrown up a random expansion and the opponent may have never found it. As terran after seizing the natural i usually make other expos PF to give them some defense if help isn't nearby. Then again if you're playing against like zerg then yeah all they need to do is have a zergling patrol expos to find out if something's up

Rodregeus

Australia126 Posts

February 03 2011 00:58 GMT

#11

Since I play terran I don't need to expand! >.>

Seriously though if it's on a big enough map and it's off the main attack path it might be worth it. Especially if you can intentionally hold their focus somewhere else. As for the scouting lings. Even considering having 1 ling per expo, it's not that expensive. 10 expos = 250 minerals and 5 supply worth of lings.

Not to mention you would most likely only lose the 1 ling at the expo they want. Whats 25 minerals to deny an expo?

Indrium

United States2236 Posts

February 03 2011 01:01 GMT

#12

It can be. MarineKing pulled this off really well against Jinro by taking a hidden gold expansion when Jinro was being aggressive on one base. It's just usually really difficult if you're getting one-based to afford that 400 if the opponent is good enough to contain you.

Arantir

United States53 Posts

February 03 2011 01:02 GMT

#13

When Kulas was still in the map pool my strategy there revolved around taking distant gold expos in ZvP. Especially against toss, you can really abuse the limited mobility of their army. If you played stalker/coll against muta/ling, you could wipe out their economy if they ever went for your expo on the other side of the map, then still get back to your base in time to defend. And if they didn't scout your expo, or didn't attack it, well you won anyway because you had a gold expo they didn't attack. The only real danger would come if the P responded with something like a few DTs.

Wartortle

Australia504 Posts

February 03 2011 01:05 GMT

#14

a lot of people aren't thinking about the fact that putting up an extra base leaves u vulnerable simply just because of the investment in that base. If you double expand in early game, or expand to a place that you cannot maynard probes too, you will be behind in units if your opponent plays a 1 or even 2 base strong push. Stealing a hidden expo in mid-late game is more fee sable imo.

Indrium

United States2236 Posts

February 03 2011 01:07 GMT

#15

Whoops, how did I post that twice?

Vladrac

United States4 Posts

February 03 2011 01:28 GMT

#16

A pretty solid way to take my 3rd (if I have the resources available to me) is to simultaneously take the obvious third expo and another expo in a land far, far away. In lower level play, I almost always get away with it and it helps give me a significant lead over my opponent, mining that "secret" 3rd solely for gas and to stockpile larvae. Combine this with Nydus play and it becomes quite defendable if discovered.

Taking the secret expansion 2nd in lower level play is indeed viable, in my experience, particularly if you build an auxiliary hatch in your main giving off the impression of 1 base zerg play. While it's true you're taking a chance, the payoff could be (and usually is) worthwhile. Scouting certainly isn't great in lower tier ladder play and, in most of my replays, I rarely ever notice my opponent scouting the map in its entirety when viewed from the opponent's cam.

VeryAverage

United States424 Posts

February 03 2011 01:33 GMT

#17

Being a silver, when I see no natural being taken and I see an interestingly large amount of units, I get very suspicious.

I actually just played a TvP on Shakuras where I felt pretty comfortable because I assumed my opponent was 1 basing. I saw 3 colossi and just a few too many stalkers. Needless to say, one drop ship found a nexus at the bottom left expo which was quickly taken care of.

If you have the means and ability to defend it, go for it.

Fugue

Australia253 Posts

February 03 2011 01:42 GMT

#18

Scouting generally isn't great in lower level play, but neither is macro. Just being solid with your opening can get you a strong enough position to take a third and onwards comfortably. Taking sneaky expansions when you're floating 1.5k minerals and gas into the hundreds regularly just isn't helping unless there's a really scrappy base trade and you get to spend it all because your income is shot.
Though I suppose if you're spending your money on something, expansions aren't a bad idea. Just remember to build more units! Income is only worth what it's spent on!

Sablar

Sweden880 Posts

February 03 2011 01:58 GMT

#19

Hidden expansions are just risky. Especially in ladder play and you have no idea who you are facing. People get suspicious early, even if they don't scout it.

A lot of the time just taking an exp in the obvious place and letting them know you are doing it isn't such a bad thing.

But I love when someone gets away with a hidden expansion. Mostly it would then be about playing a player, not ladder.

Dhalphir

Australia1305 Posts

February 03 2011 02:16 GMT

#20

Its not so much that people say that hidden expansions are bad overall. They can help you win games in the lower levels for sure.
The thing is, in lower level play, if you have any ambitions to improve you should be focusing on doing things that work in higher level play because its much better to have a steady level of improvement rather than have to drop a tactic from your play entirely, and ultimately your core play should be about safe play, and hidden expansions are inherently a risky play.

They can be a good thing to know for tournament games. When you're down a game or even sometimes when you're up a game, a risky play can be just what the doctor ordered. The opponent starts overthinking things, tournament jitters get to them and they forget to scout for hidden expansions. Happened to Hyperdub against MvP in GSL Jan.