EPTEdit: Btw I meant usually when you don't guard them since I'm toss and you won't get there fast enough
[D] Hidden Expansion
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bowserjratk
51 Posts
Edit: Btw I meant usually when you don't guard them since I'm toss and you won't get there fast enough | ||
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Evoshadow
United States88 Posts
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Railgan
Switzerland1507 Posts
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Mafs
Canada458 Posts
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Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
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bowserjratk
51 Posts
And one ling at each expansion is a sort of costly when it is a map like lost temple or Kuhlau's Ravine. And, unless it's late game and they don't have an expansion, why would you bother to scout it unless you have nothing better to do? | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On February 03 2011 08:08 bowserjratk wrote: I agree that at high level play it well, sucks but with protoss(which is my main race) it's really good. Most people don't realize that i have too much units, though it is mainly because i don't make that many all the time and also i focus on upgrades more. So anyways, if you focus more on upgrades/tech paths, they won't notice right? unless they scout you which you want to prevent. And one ling at each expansion is a sort of costly when it is a map like lost temple or Kuhlau's Ravine. And, unless it's late game and they don't have an expansion, why would you bother to scout it unless you have nothing better to do? He means there's 1 ling running between expansions if I interpreted it correctly. Such as if you have 2 bases, his ling would be patrolling the 3rd, 4th, and 5th. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
Sometimes I'll do a four-gate, or early gate aggression, and it gets denied, thus giving Zerg a stronger army, meaning I can't expand. So I'll probably sneak an expo kind of near by until I can stabilize and tech/turtle. | ||
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Gojira621
United States374 Posts
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Rodregeus
Australia126 Posts
Seriously though if it's on a big enough map and it's off the main attack path it might be worth it. Especially if you can intentionally hold their focus somewhere else. As for the scouting lings. Even considering having 1 ling per expo, it's not that expensive. 10 expos = 250 minerals and 5 supply worth of lings. Not to mention you would most likely only lose the 1 ling at the expo they want. Whats 25 minerals to deny an expo? | ||
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
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Arantir
United States53 Posts
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Wartortle
Australia504 Posts
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
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Vladrac
United States4 Posts
Taking the secret expansion 2nd in lower level play is indeed viable, in my experience, particularly if you build an auxiliary hatch in your main giving off the impression of 1 base zerg play. While it's true you're taking a chance, the payoff could be (and usually is) worthwhile. Scouting certainly isn't great in lower tier ladder play and, in most of my replays, I rarely ever notice my opponent scouting the map in its entirety when viewed from the opponent's cam. | ||
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VeryAverage
United States424 Posts
I actually just played a TvP on Shakuras where I felt pretty comfortable because I assumed my opponent was 1 basing. I saw 3 colossi and just a few too many stalkers. Needless to say, one drop ship found a nexus at the bottom left expo which was quickly taken care of. If you have the means and ability to defend it, go for it. | ||
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Fugue
Australia253 Posts
Though I suppose if you're spending your money on something, expansions aren't a bad idea. Just remember to build more units! Income is only worth what it's spent on! | ||
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Sablar
Sweden880 Posts
A lot of the time just taking an exp in the obvious place and letting them know you are doing it isn't such a bad thing. But I love when someone gets away with a hidden expansion. Mostly it would then be about playing a player, not ladder. | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
The thing is, in lower level play, if you have any ambitions to improve you should be focusing on doing things that work in higher level play because its much better to have a steady level of improvement rather than have to drop a tactic from your play entirely, and ultimately your core play should be about safe play, and hidden expansions are inherently a risky play. They can be a good thing to know for tournament games. When you're down a game or even sometimes when you're up a game, a risky play can be just what the doctor ordered. The opponent starts overthinking things, tournament jitters get to them and they forget to scout for hidden expansions. Happened to Hyperdub against MvP in GSL Jan. | ||
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Terminator(471)
United States243 Posts
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antz0r
Australia168 Posts
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Toxigen
United States390 Posts
Being a silver, when I see no natural being taken and I see an interestingly large amount of units, I get very suspicious. This is usually too late. This means he's already recouped his investment from the expansion (400 minerals + workers, probably built up over time without maynarding if there was a contain). Also, if he has an "interesting large amount of units," you probably can't stop the expo head-on and are now behind and need to get back in the game through harassment/drops. You should be checking expansions much more often. As a Zerg, most of how I respond depends on when I see my opponent expand. Denying expansions is the surest way to win macro games. Think about it this way -- for the cost of a zergling/marine/probe, you could set yourself up for a huge advantage. All you need to do is scout it. Conversely, not scouting it could lead to a macro loss. Small price to pay for an opportunity for such a huge advantage, in my opinion, and all it requires is ~50 minerals and a couple extra APM. | ||
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
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Kakisho
United States240 Posts
In similar situations, I often use "hidden expansions" not to hopefully get an advantage before he kills it, but to force him to go kill it, allowing you to move in. It would equivalent to putting a nydus worm in one end of his base and attacking at his front. The worm doesn't neccesarily have to have guys in it (like a command center without workers mining) but if the opponent sees it capable of giving you the advantage (guys could come out of a nydus at any time, workers can be sent to the minerals at anytime) then he has to kill it before it gives you the advantage. Especially as Zerg, if you're putting a lot of agro on a 4 person map (with plenty or resources) I slowly keep adding on expansions. After my third, i put one on the other end of the map, on his side, that's somewhat far from the main area of fighting. If he goes to take it out, then I pressure him further, at the front. In a way, by putting a expo far away, it puts a contain on him, since it causes him to have to travel a longer distance to take it out, and that distance is in the opposite direction of you main and natural. | ||
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Mimic
Russian Federation76 Posts
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
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Ender79
United States8 Posts
On February 03 2011 10:33 VeryAverage wrote: Being a silver, when I see no natural being taken and I see an interestingly large amount of units, I get very suspicious. I actually just played a TvP on Shakuras where I felt pretty comfortable because I assumed my opponent was 1 basing. I saw 3 colossi and just a few too many stalkers. Needless to say, one drop ship found a nexus at the bottom left expo which was quickly taken care of. If you have the means and ability to defend it, go for it. And did you win? If you felt comfortable one-basing because you thought he was as well, and he had the base long enough that you got suspicious just seeing his unit count was bigger than expected for a single base, it could have been the case in the OP where even though you killed the hidden expansion, it had already paid for itself... | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
Relying on hidden expos too often can be pretty dangerous. If you're denying your opponent the ability to scout, you're safe to expand anywhere. Hidden or not, they still have to scout to know what's happening. Denying the scouting is easier when the base is in an easier to defend location. To me, it's a form of gambling on this shittiness of your opponent. Basically, if they're bad, you win, they complain your race is imba, and nobody improves. If they're good, they scout it, kill it and you're left wishing you'd have expanded to an easier to defend location. Anything your opponent doesn't see is hidden. Inconveniencing yourself on a gamble which only works on people who don't scout is a recipe for long-term fail as you get to higher leagues. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
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Tekst
United States14 Posts
On February 04 2011 02:55 Piledriver wrote: I cant believe, no one has said this yet, but its almost impossible to do a probe transfer to hidden expansions (if you do the probe transfer, most likely you will get caught), causing them to be horribly saturated, and so they take much longer than normal expansions to reach even a decent amount of saturation, and so generally you are left with an oversaturated main and an anemic expansion, which pays for itself much later than normal. I feel like it can work out pretty well with Terran though. Mules are wonderful friends. [: Of course, still later than usual, but with the power of mules, it isn't too bad. Especially with hidden golds. | ||
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flyingbangus
United States121 Posts
You can get away with it in bronze, silver, and gold.....but consistent scouting and decent macro is enough to get you out of those leagues anyway. I do remember, though, my good 'ol silver league days when Scrap Station is almost an auto-win for me. 14 hatching onto the gold base was so much fun! Z opponents were rare back then and easily dealt with ling-bling. Protoss was easily dealt with mass speedling into muta-ling into ultra-ling. Terrans didn't even know what an expansion was LOL. It was all a matter of crushing their first wave of MM, then you can pretty easily contain them on that one base, and even use THEIR nat as your 3rd! | ||
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TrinitySC
101 Posts
It's an unnecessary risk. The only occasions that I can think of where they would be a good idea is: 1. You're really far behind and you need whatever chance you can get of coming back 2. You're doing some early-game super-aggressive contain and throw up an expo close to his base if you're zerg Even still, they sound like losing strategies. What flyingbangus said a post above is pretty much all true. Hidden expos are hard to defend and won't hidden stay for very long if your opponent isn't terrible; you're better off just taking your nat. | ||
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Tantaburs
Canada1825 Posts
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bramapanzer
83 Posts
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Shado.
United States187 Posts
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Proto_Protoss
United States495 Posts
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
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P0ckets
United States430 Posts
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santoki
United States107 Posts
usually ladder = standard play for me. and really should be | ||
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bowserjratk
51 Posts
And many other pro/tournament games. It's not as risky as most people think it is. But of course, it shouldn't be the norm | ||
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Chance55
United States55 Posts
But even then, I imagine the theme of "works well at low levels, not so well at higher levels" still applies. | ||
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bowserjratk
51 Posts
But even then, I imagine the theme of "works well at low levels, not so well at higher levels" still applies Well, it is works well at low levels, your opponent has to make a mistake forit to work at high levels | ||
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HighC
United States12 Posts
In a nutshell, if you CAN hide it and you know how to defend a standard FE build, you should win. If your hidden is scouted, we've got a whole nother game on our hands. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
At my level, if the opponent hasn't expanded to their natural after a certain amount of time, it is actually a dead giveaway that they have ninja'ed an expansion so it is up to a few probes to go find it, but usually there is like 1 really good hidden expo candidate that I go search right away. The benefit of a hidden is only if the opponent doesn't know about it, but after the opponent knows, it becomes too hard to defend and will most likely lose you the game. I believe this is something that is viable at lower levels but not so much the higher you get because the players know more "situational tells." | ||
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