|
On February 02 2011 20:21 Kickboxer wrote:
Whenever I see a zerg doing something suspicious off of one base with a fast warren I do a low economy 1 gate instant stargate with max 3 zealots to hold the front and saved boosts.
You can have a voidray out and a second one on the way by the time he is about done busting in. While you might lose almost all your probes the first ray should clean up his attack and the second one along with a phoenix will definitely clean up his main in this case.
Is this entirely stupid? Compared to getting a near useless immortal at a similar point in time it actually puts him in a pretty nasty spot if he is all in.
By that point I've noticed a second queen can be made as well as additional AA defense. If you lose all/most of your probes, even if you clean up the attack, you've lost.
|
Never liked 4-Gate at all...
This All-In just forces you to play the Zergs game.
Actually a huge mindgame advantage if it can be faked for Canons.
and may be can recover quickly enough, i mean even from 6-Pools Zergs can recover if they get their time.
|
Zerg is forced to lose his scouting drone if he wants to spot a 3 gate expand/4 gate without wasting an ovie. Now I'm glad Toss also has to lose their scouting probe to get some useful information!
|
On February Sbrubbles wrote:
Zerg is forced to lose his scouting drone if he wants to spot a 3 gate expand/4 gate without wasting an ovie. Now I'm glad Toss also has to lose their scouting probe to get some useful information!
A zerg can keep his drone alive against zealots which forces the protoss to either get a stalker out before we can choose strategy or it will get scouted, delaying tech alot. So it's not by near comparison.
|
Just won 5 in a row PvZ using this build.
|
If I all in as zerg vs you, and you give up keeping the ramp and go stargate, I win 100% of the time. I'll start building another queen (and a third eventually), get down evo chamber, and keep rallying units to your base. Any base race, I win with superior mobility of lings, and if you defend, I'll just get enough defense up to beat you when you have killed off the ling stream.
That's pretty much the worst response you could have.
|
Just been messing around with this with a practice partner and the only way we could find to beat it with gates was to use a gate/core/ - gap - gate wall with a gap near the side the roaches will go for, add a pylon next to the core to continue the choke, drop a second gate as soon as you scout and get 1 zealot then pure stalkers + chrono with a late second gas. The roaches can't hit anything but the gateway giving you plenty of time, if they try to rush up bring 3 or 4 probes to assit at the choke and u are totally fine. Follow up with a 3rd gate and a Stargate and u can chrono warpgate once early. Seemed to work ok with good micro. Changed what I scout for in PvZ totally this thread =].
|
Ok I know problem has been solved, but I am trying to maybe open the eyes of some Players to alternative Solutions for Problems instead of q.q imba or whatever.
Okay I am not trying to be a pro just want to voice my Opinion before every Ladder Session I play some matches against the very Hard AI because in Term of Macro execution Timing nothing beats the AI for obvious Reasons and to get APM up to speed try new builds etc etc good fun stuff,
So I watched the Replay and noted at 5.45 in close Pos. he atk you with 3 Roaches and a Bunch of Lings. now I copied the Build and after I got it down tried it against the very Hard AI and the AI has no problem Crushing this.
Hard AI opens 2 inbase Gates +Core -no Rampblock- Build straight 6 Zealots and Blocks Ramps with them and by the Time i got there at 6.00 I was far Pos by the way so I adapted the Timings some, he had 1 Stalker + another in the making. not to tell my atk got crushed I won still in the end cause the very Hard AI is fucking easy in the Long run but this supposed to be imba Atk got even crushed easily by the very Hard AI. maybe something to consider giving the BlizzAI atleast some credit in earlier day I think heard in in Sotg or somewhere else even a Pro in their free Time try against the AI to perfect their Build, Just a Opinion not trying to start anything peace and out.
|
A friend just showed me this thread and i must say, that i never laughed so hard in the last couple of months. How did you get those 3200 rating? Let me guess - 4 gate rush or cannon rush/if fail - expand and 4 gate push or fe > cannons > phoenix/Void, switch to coloss or Mothership? You can`t complain, about the single strat, that can do actually real damage to Protoss. And you can really easily counter it if you scout early. Your void is up just in time and it`s just GG. This matchup is really imbalanced, but from the other side. I really can`t belive, that there are 19 pages and noone flamed you hard already.
User was warned for this post
|
Tested out the hatch cancel proxy warren at lunchtime. Near as I can tell, it delays your roaches by 10 in-game seconds:
Same build order as original replay
rally 14th drone to proxy location
hatch cancel into roach warren.
|
On February 02 2011 23:18 Alkazar wrote:
A friend just showed me this thread and i must say, that i never laughed so hard in the last couple of months. How did you get those 3200 rating? Let me guess - 4 gate rush or cannon rush/if fail - expand and 4 gate push or fe > cannons > phoenix/Void, switch to coloss or Mothership? You can`t complain, about the single strat, that can do actually real damage to Protoss. And you can really easily counter it if you scout early. Your void is up just in time and it`s just GG. This matchup is really imbalanced, but from the other side. I really can`t belive, that there are 19 pages and noone flamed you hard already.
B/c 1 void ray is gunna kill 30 lings before all your probs are dead.
|
I can`t see nothing wrong on going forge + cannons then or whatever. His build will die to any early Roaches/lings all-in, that`s what i ment.
|
I see why this push is stronger than 7 roach rush... But I still believe that you can kill it with stalkers instead of making sentry early game.
Its easily scoutable since your opponent need to throw the roach warren right away + he doesnt spawn unit. The scouting probe should still be at the natural location at that time. Doing 1-1-1 (zealot - sentry - staler) at this point is still possible... holding off with these 3 while waiting for 2 gate to warp in (since warpgate actually finish around the push)
Worst case, you have to build a pylon to get you time... 
I did that recently against that push and it work wonder trust me.
|
so far i've done it 4 times and won all 4 games - 2x vs 4 gate attempts, once vs phoenix and once vs voids (all master players besides me) - needless to say that voids killed all my units but lings are so fast that charge doesnt really work good on and the damage i could do to the economy was insane (was like 3-4 probes left); against phoenix play it was definitely the easiest time
when the protoss tried to counter with his 2 void rays it was np to have 3 queens and an evo chamber ready; its quite funny that such an easy build was possible and none did it this way - so far i think on most maps the toss have to start with forge (scrap and shakuras are fine against this build)
hopefully someone comes up with something similar for zvt because i would really like to strike back with copied all-in strats like those im facing in 90% of my games
|
On February 02 2011 23:18 Alkazar wrote:
A friend just showed me this thread and i must say, that i never laughed so hard in the last couple of months. How did you get those 3200 rating? Let me guess - 4 gate rush or cannon rush/if fail - expand and 4 gate push or fe > cannons > phoenix/Void, switch to coloss or Mothership? You can`t complain, about the single strat, that can do actually real damage to Protoss. And you can really easily counter it if you scout early. Your void is up just in time and it`s just GG. This matchup is really imbalanced, but from the other side. I really can`t belive, that there are 19 pages and noone flamed you hard already.
Go back to 4chan or whatever other Internet cesspool taught you that posting like that is acceptable.
Back to topic, if cannons are required to hold this rush then on some maps it might be possible to simcity at your natural and at least have the cannons in position to defend an eventual expo.
|
Hmmm... Seeing as this is a crazy all-in i think you really need to be more paranoid than you were. I mean you see a very early roach warren and no expo, and yet you continue with your 3gate sentry expand.
If i suspected this was coming (after watching the replay, it would kill me the first time no doubt) i think i would get a forge up along with the 3gates. When you are sure this is actually whats incoming block your ramp with a pylon and stall while getting cannon(s) + warpgate ready. With cannons at your ramp, and probes on hold position around the cannons zerglings tend to be very weak. Also, you should probably do everything you can to stuff your ramps choke with hold position probes if its even possible. Zerglings tend to be very stupid when it comes to hold position probes that blocks for an actual attacking unit, since they want to kill that before the probes..
So i guess it will cost probes, but i think its possible to hold, and you will probably be ahead after.
If you throw up the forge and he doesnt go for that attack, you can still follow up with an expansion at a reasonable time, and his own expansion would be very late.
only 2.7k masters, but thats my view.
|
On February 02 2011 23:24 Finite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 23:18 Alkazar wrote:
A friend just showed me this thread and i must say, that i never laughed so hard in the last couple of months. How did you get those 3200 rating? Let me guess - 4 gate rush or cannon rush/if fail - expand and 4 gate push or fe > cannons > phoenix/Void, switch to coloss or Mothership? You can`t complain, about the single strat, that can do actually real damage to Protoss. And you can really easily counter it if you scout early. Your void is up just in time and it`s just GG. This matchup is really imbalanced, but from the other side. I really can`t belive, that there are 19 pages and noone flamed you hard already. B/c 1 void ray is gunna kill 30 lings before all your probs are dead.
Don't feed the troll, trolls seem hungry today...
On topic: everyone with a 3 digit IQ will realize that 1 ray, 2 rays or even 3 rays will never be able to deal with mass-lings streaming inside the base killing everything.
|
Wow, this opener is amazing. Protoss players, expect to see every zerg player doing this soon.
I can only guess what might work here... a full wall off with two gateways and cybercore and make stalkers? Or maybe a full wall off and your first 3-4 units have to be sentries, and just keep FFing the ramp until you can get more units out.
Seems like a huge pain in the ass for protoss to deal with, if it's even possible. Some awkward opener like this, or maybe even a required forge-defensive cannon opening, might start to be a must-have when playing protoss against zerg.
|
My suggestion is to look at his match list and see games where he loses to protoss and see what their responses were.
Then try to formulate a response from what you see in his previous match list.
|
This is a really gay build, you have to start cutting probes very early. You were 6 workers ahead, and I really think you need to mod your build :S , cause that timing hits before almost anything. The indicator is really the roach warren going up without expanding, well that's standard for any of these gimmicky rushes. Instead of FFing the ramp completely let half the army walk up and split the army, while you buy time. Maybe block the wall another pylon, as I think the zealot was useless. You have a much better time dealing with the 3 roaches, without getting surrounded by the lings. You also used alot of gas on sentries, convert them to only stalker? I really have no idea, I haven`t seen this much effective offensive play since beta where roaches were one supply. :S
Theoretically, a toss can hold with less economy than a Zerg, I think you can really afford cutting probe production after like 20, so don`t be afraid to be behind. try getting gates up early etc. As long as you hold this off you win rite? this is an all in.
For what its worth, I'm only 2600 Masters Zerg. (I will never do this :D)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
