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I'm Terran.
Why would going Forge FE be bad against this build? The guy said if he does this against Forge FE he just goes banelings and pops it... If there's one thing I know about playing Terran, spreading things out makes banelings much less effective. Not like you're going to have 4-5 cannons powered off 1 pylon...
Either way, ignore this comment. From my perspective this build just stops Protoss players from doing their 4gate build they love so much. I'm sure this build is only strong because conventional means of dealing with it aren't in the norm.
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On February 02 2011 20:54 Paradice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 20:49 Geo.Rion wrote:
hell no, if it gets popularized it wont ever work. Even so too many ppl know about it, i want a cheese like this up on my sleeve It's in Zerg's best interests to try and min/max the build, really. Ideally (from the zerg perspective) you will be able to find an ordering which will force the Protoss behind to be safe against it, while you're not forced to actually do it. (The same thing the Terrans have done to zerg several times since beta).
i have full confidence in my abilities to optimzie an early game simple rush build, with possible followups. The protoss should not change up his build necessarily unless he sees it's coming, so i dont gain a lot from that either :D
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I think chances are just to do the great wall of HongUn to hold this off. It is ridiculously fast. I haven't laddered for a few days and the last few Zergs have been slaughtering me with this. I tried with 3 sentries. They will come out fast enough to FF just until the warp-gate upgrade completes. In between there is a 10 second gap for him to run in and kill you. 1 Option would be to wall in completely to delay the push a little longer. Another Option would be to pull probes, but I doubt that this would would because roaches deal insane DPS.
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I just tried this build. Personally I think it's strong in that it is designed around punishing protoss "standard" PvZ (ie 1 gate core) play in the current metagame. With this build becoming more popular, it will get worked out and new "standard" play that is safe from this build will emerge.
On a larger level, I think this is great for the game as a whole as it gives zergs some more additional early options and can produce a wider variety of matches.
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Okay, I'm not exactly better than you but basically you're going to need a third sentry in time to FF to hold that.
In order to get one, you just need to chrono the cybercore 4 times instead of 3(After that, had you done the build perfectly, your first gate would have finished warping in a Sentry at 5:36, and you would have had time to forcefield). After that you can get a 4th and a 5th one in time and then you're all right.
In short: Chrono 4 times instead of 3.
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On February 02 2011 20:58 Gigaudas wrote:
Travis, in the end of the replay, comments that "so I'm supposed to forge every pvz" while this would only be true if he didn't scout. He was tilting and I think he knows better. I also think a lot of people have a point when they say that Protoss players are too comfortable against cheese - they expect to play standard and still be safe against Zerg.
Yes of course he is/was on tilt - nevertheless see you protoss-players trolling around when zerg-players look for help against yet another different 4-gate (timing/composition)? Do you see us post "haha, stupid zergs have to learn that they can't get early expo and drone so hard"?
The way about 70% of the zerg-posters behave is childish, insulting and completely unnecessary.
On February 02 2011 21:09 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, I'm not exactly better than you but basically you're going to need a third sentry in time to FF to hold that.
In order to get one, you just need to chrono the cybercore 4 times instead of 3(After that, had you done the build perfectly, your first gate would have finished warping in a Sentry at 5:36, and you would have had time to forcefield). After that you can get a 4th and a 5th one in time and then you're all right.
In short: Chrono 4 times instead of 3.
Again: from the set-up of the zerg-BO it's IMPOSSIBLE to know, if there will be a roach-all-in or a ling/roach-composition. Now...yet again: you will be dead with 3 sentries against 7 roaches happily shooting at your buildings with an overlord giving vision.
Going all-out sentries without cannons is death vs a delayed roach-rush.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 02 2011 20:19 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Try to go for 12 Gate and have a Probe standing at the spot where you want to build the core when the gate is finished. This saves you a couple of seconds. Furthermore, scout his main again (dunno why you didnt do this) before speed is finished. Also, you used all your chronoboost on warpgate. Have you tried using it all on sentries?
Also, when you DO scout his main again and you see the super fast roach warren and the very few drones, there is really nothing wrong with building a forge and maybe 2 cannons.
You could also completely wall off at the top of the ramp once you see his roaches, that gives the building enough time to warpin almost completely, and as he only has few roaches (you see how many he has), he cant kill buildings super fast.
lol @ the chat at the end.
There really isn't anything more that needs to be said on the matter. DarKFoRcE nailed it.
I don't know how you hold off 7RR with your build Travis  I'm sure if you played the same as you did in that game you would die to that as well.
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Master 2500 Protoss (for what it is worth).
You could have easily scouted one of the two :
-early roach warren (if you leave the probe in his base)
-one base-ing zerg (if you leave the probe outside and come back to poke once in a while)
In both cases, if would think it is rather standard play for protoss to answer to that by forge + cannons and still be miles ahead of zerg...
If you think you can defend this by doing some unorthodox gateway units defense, you're the one that should come up with the solution. Or else you might as well ask us "How do i stop mutalisk rush without cannons or stalkers ???"
TLDR : 1base zerg = forge + cannon
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great replay, thanks for sharing! =)
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Well you wanted to 3gate FE.
Teh thing about that is, you do not try to build units asap out of ur one gate, you just trust that one zealot and one sentry is enough to keep zerg away.
Obviously it is not.
if oyu would add your first gate earlier and chronoboost a stalker out, you defenitely could harras his overlord before it is in position.
From there you have to handle it like a strong Terran Bio push, try to cut off a few units at the front and kill them etc.
It's an all-in, it will take a little time for toss to adjust, I would not call it imbalanced quite yet.
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On February 02 2011 21:10 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 20:58 Gigaudas wrote:
Travis, in the end of the replay, comments that "so I'm supposed to forge every pvz" while this would only be true if he didn't scout. He was tilting and I think he knows better. I also think a lot of people have a point when they say that Protoss players are too comfortable against cheese - they expect to play standard and still be safe against Zerg. Yes of course he is/was on tilt - nevertheless see you protoss-players trolling around when zerg-players look for help against yet another different 4-gate (timing/composition)? Do you see us post "haha, stupid zergs have to learn that they can't get early expo and drone so hard"? The way about 70% of the zerg-posters behave is childish, insulting and completely unnecessary. Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 21:09 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, I'm not exactly better than you but basically you're going to need a third sentry in time to FF to hold that.
In order to get one, you just need to chrono the cybercore 4 times instead of 3(After that, had you done the build perfectly, your first gate would have finished warping in a Sentry at 5:36, and you would have had time to forcefield). After that you can get a 4th and a 5th one in time and then you're all right.
In short: Chrono 4 times instead of 3. Again: from the set-up of the zerg-BO it's IMPOSSIBLE to know, if there will be a roach-all-in or a ling/roach-composition. Now...yet again: you will be dead with 3 sentries against 7 roaches happily shooting at your buildings with an overlord giving vision. Going all-out sentries without cannons is death vs a delayed roach-rush.
He said he even knew it was coming. =P That's true though, but you can warp in a few Stalkers after you have enough FF to perma-hold. Forge would be the safest option, of course.
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i think there was a little lack of scouting..
if i am right he attacks when u have 1 zealot and 2 sentry, wp not rdy
after scouting the roachwarren, did u ever trieged to go forge?
i mean u have a little timingwindow with the 2ff, but not sure if cannons are up in time
anyways, it seem prety strong
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On February 02 2011 21:23 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 21:10 sleepingdog wrote:On February 02 2011 20:58 Gigaudas wrote:
Travis, in the end of the replay, comments that "so I'm supposed to forge every pvz" while this would only be true if he didn't scout. He was tilting and I think he knows better. I also think a lot of people have a point when they say that Protoss players are too comfortable against cheese - they expect to play standard and still be safe against Zerg. Yes of course he is/was on tilt - nevertheless see you protoss-players trolling around when zerg-players look for help against yet another different 4-gate (timing/composition)? Do you see us post "haha, stupid zergs have to learn that they can't get early expo and drone so hard"? The way about 70% of the zerg-posters behave is childish, insulting and completely unnecessary. On February 02 2011 21:09 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, I'm not exactly better than you but basically you're going to need a third sentry in time to FF to hold that.
In order to get one, you just need to chrono the cybercore 4 times instead of 3(After that, had you done the build perfectly, your first gate would have finished warping in a Sentry at 5:36, and you would have had time to forcefield). After that you can get a 4th and a 5th one in time and then you're all right.
In short: Chrono 4 times instead of 3. Again: from the set-up of the zerg-BO it's IMPOSSIBLE to know, if there will be a roach-all-in or a ling/roach-composition. Now...yet again: you will be dead with 3 sentries against 7 roaches happily shooting at your buildings with an overlord giving vision. Going all-out sentries without cannons is death vs a delayed roach-rush. He said he even knew it was coming. =P That's true though, but you can warp in a few Stalkers after you have enough FF to perma-hold. Forge would be the safest option, of course.
The problem is, that you'll lose your cybernetics core vs the roaches quite quickly. You can't repair and when they go all-in on your core you are done 
Doesn't matter if they lose stuff in the process, sentries and 2-3 warped stalkers don't kill 7 roaches fast enough.
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On February 02 2011 18:47 Gooey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 18:28 Ingruz wrote:On February 02 2011 18:10 Gooey wrote:
Change the way you wall in. I change the way I walled in because of stuff like this. Line up your core and gateway at the ramp vertically with a max distance pylon (this leaves a gap for a building that is 3x3). If your scout probe sees the roach warren going down immediately after the pool, then save that gap for your next gateway. If it looks like a normal opening, you would normally have the 100 minerals for a pylon when the zealot is about to pop out. The zealot normally comes out right before lings from a standard gas/pool build gets to your base, so your ramp will still be guarded by a zealot from a normal opener (and the pylon won't be an issue with baneling busts, because you are getting sentries. This gives your wall way more HP, and 3 roaches cannot snipe a core or gateway down fast enough (especially since your core is centered as far from the ramp as possible), and it provides enough HP to get you some extra time for warpgate. Your gates warped in right as he finally got through the forcefields, and you faltered due to a risky wall. Poster a few above me is correct that this is 100% scoutable and fully telling of what is coming.
Can you post a screenshot of this kind of wall-in? Thanks Here ya go http://img64.imageshack.us/i/tosswallin.png/This gives you the room to block with an additional forge/gateway against any cheese and still provides the zealot blocking gap. You will be able to afford the pylon before the zealot pops out with a normal sentry expand build. It is the safest wall imo.
Thanks mate, seems interesting!
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You might as well get a forge and some cannons. When he does this and you try go for a 3warp gate expand you are not going to be able to spend that money (your expo isn't going down until you break that strangehold they have on the ramp), I was holding it off without cannons (albiet to a poorly played rush, he sent all his lings to their deaths first then the roaches) and my money really sky rocketed, I think I was at around 800minerals when I managed to get out, really at that stage if you want to be really safe just drop a forge and some cannons then expand after.
Also if you follow this up with 3stargates after you expand and boost out 9 Pheonixes TLO style, you instantly win :D There is almost nothing they can do to stop your Pheonixes raping everything unless they go something like 1base hydra with 3 spore crawlers, but then you just transition into Voidray Colossus.
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Ok, watched that - I seriously dont know what you can do to stop it. Even if you had your 4 gate up you would have lost.
Edit: After reading some more posts. I think having a solid block wall with a cannon would be good. Then once you get enough sentries, you would be safe. Its a tough build to counter - I luckily haven't faced it yet, however I expect that to change soon.
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On February 02 2011 21:11 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 20:19 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Try to go for 12 Gate and have a Probe standing at the spot where you want to build the core when the gate is finished. This saves you a couple of seconds. Furthermore, scout his main again (dunno why you didnt do this) before speed is finished. Also, you used all your chronoboost on warpgate. Have you tried using it all on sentries?
Also, when you DO scout his main again and you see the super fast roach warren and the very few drones, there is really nothing wrong with building a forge and maybe 2 cannons.
You could also completely wall off at the top of the ramp once you see his roaches, that gives the building enough time to warpin almost completely, and as he only has few roaches (you see how many he has), he cant kill buildings super fast.
lol @ the chat at the end. There really isn't anything more that needs to be said on the matter. DarKFoRcE nailed it. I don't know how you hold off 7RR with your build Travis I'm sure if you played the same as you did in that game you would die to that as well.
Exactly what I was going to say. How exactly do you defend against a 7RR if you can't defend against this?
Also, I'm increasingly starting to think chronoing WG is a build-specific move, and that it's almost always better to chrono your 1 or 2 gates instead; the only time chronoing WG really helps is if you've got a super refined build and with X number of predetermined chronos on WG your gates finish right at the same time and bam you can warp in 3-4 units simultaneously.
Lastly, a forge + 2 cannons is 450 minerals; the forge isn't wasted, and the cannons mean you can tech instead of making more units. So you come out with a +1 timing attack and crush the zerg who had 14 drones when you had 20. How is that a problem?
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On February 02 2011 21:44 spacenegroes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 21:11 Plexa wrote:On February 02 2011 20:19 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Try to go for 12 Gate and have a Probe standing at the spot where you want to build the core when the gate is finished. This saves you a couple of seconds. Furthermore, scout his main again (dunno why you didnt do this) before speed is finished. Also, you used all your chronoboost on warpgate. Have you tried using it all on sentries?
Also, when you DO scout his main again and you see the super fast roach warren and the very few drones, there is really nothing wrong with building a forge and maybe 2 cannons.
You could also completely wall off at the top of the ramp once you see his roaches, that gives the building enough time to warpin almost completely, and as he only has few roaches (you see how many he has), he cant kill buildings super fast.
lol @ the chat at the end. There really isn't anything more that needs to be said on the matter. DarKFoRcE nailed it. I don't know how you hold off 7RR with your build Travis I'm sure if you played the same as you did in that game you would die to that as well. Exactly what I was going to say. How exactly do you defend against a 7RR if you can't defend against this? Also, I'm increasingly starting to think chronoing WG is a build-specific move, and that it's almost always better to chrono your 1 or 2 gates instead; the only time chronoing WG really helps is if you've got a super refined build and with X number of predetermined chronos on WG your gates finish right at the same time and bam you can warp in 3-4 units simultaneously.
This is indeed something I've been noticing a lot in even pro-gamer replays. Everyone seems to just "randomly" chrono-boost the warpgate, even without any specific timing in mind. Personally, I chrono-boost my nexus almost exclusively and always end up with 2-4 probes more when I compare my games with the games of the pros (don't worry, I screw up my macro afterwards often enough to not feel too proud about this).
Chrono-boosting warpgate-tech is almost always inferior to chrono-boosting the nexus or the gateway. If you just use 1-2 chronos on warpgate-tech, you will get only 3 instead of 4 units out of your gateway and have some idle time. If you start your 4th unit, the warpgate-tech will finish ahead of time....nothing you could want either, then it would've been better to just not have chrono-boosted it at all.
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Thanks for the BO Travis  . Won 9 In a row ZvZ / ZvP with this build and I am finally experiencing what P feel like when they 4 warp gate rush and win. Thanks for the free wins.
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You need to wall off with a Pylon or two. At very worst you need to pull probes. And Chrono Boosting your gateway is a MUST against a Roach rush, especially one that is coming faster than usual like that. You shouldn't be wasting it on warp gate. Keep in mind you were ahead 10 probes at that point in the game as well, throwing down a forge and 2 cannons wouldn't have cost you all that much in the long run if you feel you must go that route against the rush.
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EPT
