EPTstop being so greedy and scout properly. i guess you were probably tilting alittle bit when you posted this, but seriously. look at what he's doing. he's just capitalizing on a popular protoss mindset, that even with low unit counts zerg cannot typically push against a toss.
[H] 3 roach+speedling all-in PvZ - Page 17
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Signum
Canada99 Posts
stop being so greedy and scout properly. i guess you were probably tilting alittle bit when you posted this, but seriously. look at what he's doing. he's just capitalizing on a popular protoss mindset, that even with low unit counts zerg cannot typically push against a toss. | ||
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parn
France296 Posts
On February 02 2011 19:53 WhiteDog wrote: Sure the guy win a lot with this build, since every damn protoss think they can get to void ray + colossus with 1 freeking zealot and a bunch of sentries. Ho damn there is one zerg that rush in this damn game... imbalance! It's all in, the guy have 14 drone. When I'm getting 4gated, I just can't defend the rush without spine crawlers, even if I know it come at this time. And it's even less all in than that. Totally agree  I think we should open some threads about this Z BO, as it is done with 4 gates "strategies", and try to improve it to the max. | ||
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
If you're on one base as zerg you do not need spine crawlers insaniaK. Are you dense???? This replay is about a one base zerg. If he had been 4gating there would be no senties to delay the initial push around 4:45. This means there are 3 roaches and a few lings (eight or so) in your base one minute before warp gate finishes. At this point a 4gate has 1 zealot one stalker. At least use solid evidence with your balance trolls. | ||
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Minastir
Finland62 Posts
If roach warren after pool forces cannons, it means you can easily just drone hard and expand after protoss scouts your early warren, his tech and unit production will be severely slowed down. | ||
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InsaniaK
Sweden120 Posts
On February 02 2011 20:13 Ummbeefy wrote: Why the hell is this becoming a balance discussion? If you're on one base as zerg you do not need spine crawlers insaniaK. Are you dense???? This replay is about a one base zerg. If he had been 4gating there would be no senties to delay the initial push around 4:45. This means there are 3 roaches and a few lings (eight or so) in your base one minute before warp gate finishes. At this point a 4gate has 1 zealot one stalker. At least use solid evidence with your balance trolls. If you want to be able to still drone you need spines. I don't see why protoss's are screaming so much because a zerg didn't play the way they expected him to. he had 14 drones. it's an all-in. A marine scv all-in for example is really powerful, why shouldn't this be? | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
Also, when you DO scout his main again and you see the super fast roach warren and the very few drones, there is really nothing wrong with building a forge and maybe 2 cannons. You could also completely wall off at the top of the ramp once you see his roaches, that gives the building enough time to warpin almost completely, and as he only has few roaches (you see how many he has), he cant kill buildings super fast. lol @ the chat at the end. | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
You can have a voidray out and a second one on the way by the time he is about done busting in. While you might lose almost all your probes the first ray should clean up his attack and the second one along with a phoenix will definitely clean up his main in this case. Is this entirely stupid? Compared to getting a near useless immortal at a similar point in time it actually puts him in a pretty nasty spot if he is all in. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
For instance, if the Protoss does as some suggest and responds with a forge when he sees the roach warren, can the Zerg expect to see that happen? And if he can/does, and pumps drones instead of roaches, where does that leave everyone's economy and timings? What about the other wall-in or unit-based responses? Finally (and this is a bit more out-there and a bit less of a question), the build has enough minerals for a queen and a warren when the pool pops, right? So it has enough to drop an expo hatch somewhere and then cancel it into a roach warren, at the expense of slightly delaying the queen. I'll be able to test the timings vs the replay in an hour or so... | ||
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Signum
Canada99 Posts
On February 02 2011 20:14 Minastir wrote: The real interesting part about this build is forcing protoss to do something they really shouldn't be doing in early game, cannons. Also you can deny your protoss opponent's scouting while scouting with your own overlord. If roach warren after pool forces cannons, it means you can easily just drone hard and expand after protoss scouts your early warren, his tech and unit production will be severely slowed down. protoss spends 300 minerals because of this. you stop droning at 14. saturate a gas. build up a larvae lock. get roach warren get z speed keep mining gas after z speed. and you do all of these things while a probe is probably alive in your base. somehow i don't think droning hard and expanding will make this economical before the 5:30 mark when toss realizes somethings up again. this build certainly beats 4gates clean, so i suggest not 4 gating when you scout it. if it comes out that 4gate style openings do not cleanly transition into defense as well as this does offense, then this build is exactly what zvp needs. | ||
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RuneZerg
Denmark90 Posts
On February 02 2011 20:13 Ummbeefy wrote: Why the hell is this becoming a balance discussion? If you're on one base as zerg you do not need spine crawlers insaniaK. Are you dense???? This replay is about a one base zerg. If he had been 4gating there would be no senties to delay the initial push around 4:45. This means there are 3 roaches and a few lings (eight or so) in your base one minute before warp gate finishes. At this point a 4gate has 1 zealot one stalker. At least use solid evidence with your balance trolls. Sorry to say so but just cant take your "if 4 gate cant hold it off its imbalanced", if your opponent is hitting your base with 3 roaches and 8 lings you cant expect to hold it off with a sentry and a zealot.. this may change the weird idea that toss doesnt need to build anything till their warpgates finish, which is kinda cool. I dont think this is in any way imbalanced, just like a zerg getting attacked will have to cut drones and a terran being attacked will have to build bunkers/pull svc's protoss will need to realise they cant hold off an all in while using all their economy on teching | ||
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JustinHit
United States196 Posts
Did you know u can get 2 gateways then a cyber too? I dont see whats the problem here except the whole notion of getting tech is a risk. | ||
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Paradice
New Zealand431 Posts
On February 02 2011 20:22 Umpteen wrote: Having read all 16 pages of this thread, it seems there are some questions left unanswered: For instance, if the Protoss does as some suggest and responds with a forge when he sees the roach warren, can the Zerg expect to see that happen? And if he can/does, and pumps drones instead of roaches, where does that leave everyone's economy and timings? What about the other wall-in or unit-based responses? The overlord is camped over the ramp the whole time, and can see exactly how prepared the Protoss is for the rush. With shortish rush distances, the Forge pretty much *must* be started before the warren completes, and with speedlings out, Protoss will be blind in the short term. If zerg cancels the warren and immediately drones hard and expands, where are they at compared to a Protoss still cannoning up in anticipation? So I tested it, and the good news is, Zerg isn't ahead here. At the 6:00 mark (probably the very latest the Protoss will realise that nothing's coming) the "cancelled roach warren into hardcore macro" build is still significantly economically behind a more typical speedling expand, and the available tech is identical. Protoss have some sunken cannon costs, but they haven't had to cut probes, they do have a Forge, and the ramp is nice and safe... it felt OK as Protoss in that position. I didn't have a cluster of sentries to start collecting mana with yet, but I definitely didn't feel behind. I didn't try the "let Roach Warren finish and just not use it" - I assume that would be worse, since Protoss can't scout the difference anyway until much later. | ||
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CrownLewis
Sweden30 Posts
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Paradice
New Zealand431 Posts
On February 02 2011 20:35 HitStarcraft wrote: You protoss need to learn that you cant just get a cyber right after ur gateway. Did you know u can get 2 gateways then a cyber too? I dont see whats the problem here except the whole notion of getting tech is a risk. What? "Us Protoss" pretty much always can get a Cyber right after our Gateway. Which is good, because we pretty much need it, given we have zero ranged units, and zero fast units, until it's done. And in this case, delaying it would mean we're relying on pure zealot and a nice delayed warpgate tech. That's not gonna work out so well against this build. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On February 02 2011 20:13 parn wrote: Totally agree I think we should open some threads about this Z BO, as it is done with 4 gates "strategies", and try to improve it to the max. hell no, if it gets popularized it wont ever work. Even so too many ppl know about it, i want a cheese like this up on my sleeve | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On February 02 2011 20:35 HitStarcraft wrote: You protoss need to learn that you cant just get a cyber right after ur gateway. And you zergs need to learn that you cant just get an expansion right after your pool. Oh wait... WTF is it with the redonculous stupidity around here the last couple of pages? Just because there's a new zerg all-in around, this doesn't mean every zerg-troll has to get out of his hole to screw around here? People are trying to find the most efficient way to beat it, how about either you participate or please go away? | ||
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TehForce
1072 Posts
so no wonder this thread derails into balance whine when op as a master player (which again prooves that you can get to masters without understanding the game a bit) shouts out imbalance all over the place. You could have easily scoutet the roach warren / no expo with your probe and had enough time to build forge and cannons. thats really all that there is to say. If z fakes the roach warren, cancel all but one cannon and forge expand. gratulation, you have more workers than him and can immidiatly start researching +1 weapons. where is the problem? | ||
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Paradice
New Zealand431 Posts
On February 02 2011 20:49 Geo.Rion wrote: hell no, if it gets popularized it wont ever work. Even so too many ppl know about it, i want a cheese like this up on my sleeve It's in Zerg's best interests to try and min/max the build, really. Ideally (from the zerg perspective) you will be able to find an ordering which will force the Protoss behind to be safe against it, while you're not forced to actually do it. (The same thing the Terrans have done to zerg several times since beta). | ||
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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
On February 02 2011 20:50 sleepingdog wrote: And you zergs need to learn that you cant just get an expansion right after your pool. Oh wait... WTF is it with the redonculous stupidity around here the last couple of pages? Just because there's a new zerg all-in around, this doesn't mean every zerg-troll has to get out of his hole to screw around here? People are trying to find the most efficient way to beat it, how about either you participate or please go away? Zerg trolls? Given his reply wasn't very good as 2 gate is terrible against roach openings but it seems pretty clear that he was not trolling, he was just being clueless. Several posters have established that throwing down a forge will make the Protoss come out ahead. In the replay, Travis scouts 13 pool 12 gas early Roach Warren and plays as normal. This is a HUGE investment for Zerg early on. I'd say that most proxy gates would leave you with a better economy than this would. Zerg cuts drones and spends three very early drones on buildings. A Zerg won't play as usual after scouting a two rax or a two gate. He will invest heavily in defense that he usually doesn't get. Travis, in the end of the replay, comments that "so I'm supposed to forge every pvz" while this would only be true if he didn't scout. He was tilting and I think he knows better. I also think a lot of people have a point when they say that Protoss players are too comfortable against cheese - they expect to play standard and still be safe against Zerg. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On the off chance this doesn't work for you, A really good technique for finding a solution to your problems in A race vs B race is to play some ladder games as B race using X strategy and see how people respond. You might find one guy who faced this a ton and just smashes your face, then take that build and if you scout your opponent doing that, respond with what that guy who just smashed you did. This is something SAviOr did a ton in his reign as bonjwa which gave him a supreme edge vs his opponents. Granted the ladder system now isn't as conducive as you can't say, "I'm playing ONLY ZvP on ONLY this map (and perhaps using a smurf to do it)", which helped with consistency, and in the extremely high leagues, which you are in, vying for top of your division, or trying to make top 200 list, etc makes it scary to play a different race (which I think they need to change, but cest la vie, we have to work with what we have), if this thing really has the win rate he says it does, you're going to get a bunch of free wins until you get that one key loss you're waiting for, then you have a solution. I didn't read the other posts to see if there was a similar post to this, b/c there are 17 pages, but if you stumble across this post, I'm thinking that you'd find a solution there. Good Luck. | ||
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