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On February 02 2011 05:12 roymarthyup wrote:
units, for all intensive purposes, generally have a strength that is relative to their resource cost.
Just as an aside, it's intents and purposes, intensive purposes doesn't really make any sense.
Also, as a P player, my deathball never feels quite as deathly as it should be, but I'm definitely working on that. I've never really gotten the infamous void ray/colossus deathball up and running without dying to mid game pressure, so maybe the idea is to not let protoss actually get all those expensive units out and actually put pressure on them. Kind of like the typical matchup role reversal.
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On February 02 2011 06:32 TNine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 05:41 Aequos wrote:
In a unit tester (not the most valid of sources) a Protoss deathball can be cost efficiently a-move countered by ~30 banelings, 2 ultras, a couple of queens, and some speedlings. Not sure how helpful this is, but the point is adding a bunch of queens can hurt the colossi/VR composition badly.
Check out that Queens are Awesome thread, they discuss this idea. ^That^, but it also comes with a double whammy: IIRC, banelings have the highest cost: pop ratio, at 100 mins and 50 gas per population count. With 80 supply taken up by queens and drones, and with 8 ultras worth 48 supply (128 total), you can get 144 banelings. That's a lot. Each queen costs four banelings in pop, but that means that four queens and you can still have 128 banelings. Similar topic is here. That's about smashing into terran balls more than protoss balls, but the same concept applies.
Not only do they have the highest cost/supply ratio of any units, but they are arguably the most cost efficient unit en masse.
Infestor + bling + ultra might do some real damage, especially if one can land a few fungals to basically eliminate sentries before the engagement.
Never tested a baneling-heavy composition vs late game P ground. It seems like a good idea.
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On February 02 2011 11:15 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 06:32 TNine wrote:On February 02 2011 05:41 Aequos wrote:
In a unit tester (not the most valid of sources) a Protoss deathball can be cost efficiently a-move countered by ~30 banelings, 2 ultras, a couple of queens, and some speedlings. Not sure how helpful this is, but the point is adding a bunch of queens can hurt the colossi/VR composition badly.
Check out that Queens are Awesome thread, they discuss this idea. ^That^, but it also comes with a double whammy: IIRC, banelings have the highest cost: pop ratio, at 100 mins and 50 gas per population count. With 80 supply taken up by queens and drones, and with 8 ultras worth 48 supply (128 total), you can get 144 banelings. That's a lot. Each queen costs four banelings in pop, but that means that four queens and you can still have 128 banelings. Similar topic is here. That's about smashing into terran balls more than protoss balls, but the same concept applies. Not only do they have the highest cost/supply ratio of any units, but they are arguably the most cost efficient unit en masse. Infestor + bling + ultra might do some real damage, especially if one can land a few fungals to basically eliminate sentries before the engagement. Never tested a baneling-heavy composition vs late game P ground. It seems like a good idea.
If you are using ultras, you don't need to prevent sentries, the sentries are already useless. Ultras stomp forcefields and guardian sheild doesn't do anything. Hallucinations could actually be used as a shield, though...
And i think Ultrabling is going to be the Zerg response to maxed out armies. Even against a Void/Collosi/Gateway army, it could be devestating. Blings simply do too much damage too quickly. Follow up with mass Muta, and it's gg.
The obvious answer is Templar tech. Mass storm pwns blings and Archons' size and health helps them tank against blings (18 blings to kill before upgrades) while they are also pretty strong against Ultras.
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I'm going to paraphrase Incontrol here:
You need to throw whatever you've got at him. Don't expect to win the first battle. However, you should have the economy to pump up reinforcements to take him down after that. And for that, you need to expand and macro correctly.
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I dont know why people dont know about the baneling drops thread. This is an epic strategy. If the protoss goes the usual 200/200 colossus/stalker/sentry/zealot ball, baneling drops if done properly will utterly destroy it. get about ~20-30 banelings, load em up and drop em. Even when the protoss army is larger, I've still pulled out wins. If your thinking this is just some gold level strategy, its worked against WhiteRa. Sometimes you might even have loads of roachs and hydras left over.
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On February 02 2011 05:24 Adeeler wrote:
Aim to overkill with Corruptors to wipe out his collusus & voidray count.
Yes, because Corruptors fight Void Rays so efficiently right?
Right?
(Hint: Void Rays absolutely SMASH Corruptors).
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On February 03 2011 01:23 MangoTango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 05:24 Adeeler wrote:
Aim to overkill with Corruptors to wipe out his collusus & voidray count. Yes, because Corruptors fight Void Rays so efficiently right? Right? (Hint: Void Rays absolutely SMASH Corruptors).
Obviously it is inefficient, but when the entire Voidray/Colossus ball is gone then the Protoss can no longer go that route again, to rebuild his ball would take AGES, you could camp most of his production facilities with Corruptors and it also lets you go into Broodlords. Fighting broodlord/hydra/roach with just Gateway units + HT is inefficient for protoss
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On February 03 2011 01:23 MangoTango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 05:24 Adeeler wrote:
Aim to overkill with Corruptors to wipe out his collusus & voidray count. Yes, because Corruptors fight Void Rays so efficiently right? Right? (Hint: Void Rays absolutely SMASH Corruptors).
They don't if you utilize corruption properly and you actually have as many resources invested into corruptors as he has on void rays. The problem is though that they are more supply efficient. Obviously if they have some time to precharge on the rest of your army, the situation somewhat changes.
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On February 02 2011 23:56 Bleak wrote:
I'm going to paraphrase Incontrol here:
You need to throw whatever you've got at him. Don't expect to win the first battle. However, you should have the economy to pump up reinforcements to take him down after that. And for that, you need to expand and macro correctly.
Quoting the great 88iNcontrol is always win. I agree completely.
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On February 03 2011 02:00 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 01:23 MangoTango wrote:On February 02 2011 05:24 Adeeler wrote:
Aim to overkill with Corruptors to wipe out his collusus & voidray count. Yes, because Corruptors fight Void Rays so efficiently right? Right? (Hint: Void Rays absolutely SMASH Corruptors). They don't if you utilize corruption properly and you actually have as many resources invested into corruptors as he has on void rays. The problem is though that they are more supply efficient. Obviously if they have some time to precharge on the rest of your army, the situation somewhat changes.
Funny thing is, en masse with equal supply of corruptors to voidrays, utilizing perfect corruption micro is WORSE than not using it. Which should sound absolutely absurd, but corruption used during battle takes accel time + move time + corruption time = -2-3 corruptor attacks. Of course this assumes that you attack at range 6, then move to range 4 to corrupt.
Then it seems smarter to corrupt while advancing, with perfect cloning. Even then it makes the corruptors lose 1-2 attacks, which still makes them die faster than simply A-moving. Corruption is thoroughly useless in most major army engagements that focus on the Corruptors doing damage. I mean seriously if corruption prevents your Corruptor from attacking twice, then mathematically to even make up for the 2 missed attacks you need to land 10 Corruptor shots on the unit that's been corrupted.
In laymen's terms, against massive units Corruptors must inflict more than 200 damage on a single target to have corruption be even marginally cost effective. Against nonmassive units more than 140 damage must be done. And against units like Void Rays, that increase in damage as time goes on, corruption is generally useless. I mean is a damage increase of 2 against non-massive really worth missing 2-3 attacks?
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Why would you move to range 4 to corrupt? It has range 6? Also does using corruption even affect the attack delay at all?
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On February 03 2011 01:23 MangoTango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 05:24 Adeeler wrote:
Aim to overkill with Corruptors to wipe out his collusus & voidray count. Yes, because Corruptors fight Void Rays so efficiently right? Right? (Hint: Void Rays absolutely SMASH Corruptors).
This is flat out wrong. Void vs corruptor is pretty even. If you have more cost in corruptors, you'll beat the voids. And collosi drain so much gas, that if you commit to air, P won't have gas to contest your air superiority.
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http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=185887
heres a replay where i just beat a protoss deathball
my opponent was clearly under my skill level, but at the end of the game he opted for a deathball of tons of collossi, stalkers, and some zealot/sentry
in many ways, a protoss deathball can be considered better with just collossi instead of collossi/voidray
for example, void rays do not benefit from ground upgrades that help collosis, but stalkers do. also 1 stalker is 50gas and can beat a 100gas mutalisk where a void ray costs 150gas and is weaker pound for pound against mutalisks. and not to mention protoss must get double upgrades to upgrade is VR's where the stalkers automatically benefit from the collossi upgrades
that shows why stalkers are arguably better than void rays for anti air.
next, collossi cost 50 more gas and 50 more minerals than a void ray and are much better at anti-ground. in fact collossi are MASSIVELY SUPERIOR than a void ray against ground units and only costs 50 more minerals and 50 more gas. This means it is not a stupid idea at all to just get a collossi deathball instead of a VR/collossi deathball
anyway, in the replay i clearly was much more skilled than my opponent but ultimate my opponent tried to attack me with a collossi/gateway army that was relatively equal to my army in cost, and i decimated him in every attack
i believe what mainly let me win was i was abusing the power of the roach. the roach is hard to kill even for collossi and roaches just roflstomp all the zealots and start working on the stalkers and roaches build in less than 30 seconds so you can reup a massive reinforcement quickly
next, i slowly made my way to brood lords and it seems a brood lord / roach / mutalisk / queen army is capable of competing with protoss lategame army
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One thing I just wanna say because I used today this. (I'm on my iPod so I can't quote correctly because I don't know the way to type it or w/e) but its not all intensive purposes lol. Its for all intents and purposes. I said it the way the OP did for many years and I find it humorous. This isn't a troll. Just letting he OP know the mistake that I made also. Anyone else find that funny? 
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Corruptor/Hydra sounds like a good mix if you micro the Corruptors. Once the Colossi are crippled just attack move the Hydras. Heck, throw in a few Fungal Growths from burrowed Infestors to hold his Stalkers/Void Rays in place while you ravage the Colossi.
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Well, I watched the replay, and the first glaring error to me is that you were behind on upgrades. When you're beneath the 200 vs 200 mark, having more units is an arguably reasonable trade-off for upgrades, though how much bigger you army must be to equate for a lack of upgrades, I'm not sure. However, at the 200/200 mark, upgrades really shine, since you cannot simply make more units to compensate. Thus, that's the first error. Be sure to note that if you see a cannon, assume +1 atk is en route, and, asap, start +1 carapace, and perhaps more. Furthermore, you had the ability to have +2+2 for quite a while, since this utilizes lair tech as a prereq(you had it up by the 9:41 mark), but his twilight council, his +2/+2 prereq, wasn't on the scene until 18:13... So, upgrades are super important, especially once it appears you're heading to an end-game scenario.
Also, your creep spread should have been further out, perhaps to the middle of the map in order to engage further from your hatches, such that he can't so easily cut off your reinforcements.
As for his deathball, he had voids, collosi and stalkers, you had almost mono-roach, with a minimum of queens and mutas. And, the only upgrades you had, air upgrades, had hardly any units to make use of them. Also, as you approch the 200/200 mark, hedge towards more gas heavy, supply efficeint units. Mono-roach is a bad idea for a 200/200 army. At least 50 supply needs to be devoted to something like corrupters, broodlords, hydras, infestors. mutas and roaches are more important up until about the 125-150 mark, beyond that go for those higher tech units. Also, you need to scout more, the stargate tech wasn't visible to you until you were caught with your pants down with just roaches that can't shoot up.
I'm not trying to be rude to you, but simply point out the changes which may have swung in your favor. Your econ seemed just fine, in fact I'd say the opponent almost made too many probes, which ate up his supply. Just try to avoid tier 1 200/200 armies, as easy to make as they may be...
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In Mid/late game, when there are 200 food armies on the board, the Protoss deathball should wipe the Zerg army as long as Protoss unit composition isn't hard countered by Zerg. The problem is that he will lose some of his units that as you pointed out, cost a lot of resources. Also, Protoss can't match Zerg at replenishing their armies. So as long as Protoss doesn't damage economy or vital tech, Zerg can refill their supply so easily with hatches and inject.
That's how a Zerg would have to take out the deathball. The other way zerg wins is by harassing P into the ground. You asked about countering the deathball though. So since your army is cheaper than his, you win by throwing money at it. I feel as if Terran has a better counter to it via EMP.
New Protoss thing is Colossi and Void Rays. Corruptors, but blink will make this harder. Idk about the suicide idea that people above are posting about. Takes 20 stalkers to oneshot a corruptor (this includes armor and all that). 17 stalkers isn't that much at this point in the game. In addition to the voids, suicide might not be as effective as you think.
1v1 Void Ray (250 life total) vs. Corruptor (200 life)
First 3.6 seconds void deals 70 damage to Corruptor (first attack and 6 proceeding until damage is upgraded)
Corruptor has dealt 41 damage. From there, it'll get worse, especially with stalkers focusing a corruptor down every 1.44 seconds. Not to mention any other AA in there (sentries), Gshield and extra damage.
And I'd just move my colossi back. All this was done at 0-0 for both sides :/ as I'm lazy, anyone who feels to add, go ahead.
And since I'm P, I gotta give some advice to P :D Get 3 voids to focus down a corruptor, since the beam will upgrade as it dies. This balances lowering the number of Corruptors while getting your void rays' damage upgraded .
This isn't to say that corruptors aren't part of Z army comp that is needed to take down this new "deathball," but that suiciding Corruptors might not end up so nicely for Z.
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On February 03 2011 05:15 roymarthyup wrote:http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=185887heres a replay where i just beat a protoss deathball my opponent was clearly under my skill level, but at the end of the game he opted for a deathball of tons of collossi, stalkers, and some zealot/sentry in many ways, a protoss deathball can be considered better with just collossi instead of collossi/voidray for example, void rays do not benefit from ground upgrades that help collosis, but stalkers do. also 1 stalker is 50gas and can beat a 100gas mutalisk where a void ray costs 150gas and is weaker pound for pound against mutalisks. and not to mention protoss must get double upgrades to upgrade is VR's where the stalkers automatically benefit from the collossi upgrades that shows why stalkers are arguably better than void rays for anti air. next, collossi cost 50 more gas and 50 more minerals than a void ray and are much better at anti-ground. in fact collossi are MASSIVELY SUPERIOR than a void ray against ground units and only costs 50 more minerals and 50 more gas. This means it is not a stupid idea at all to just get a collossi deathball instead of a VR/collossi deathball anyway, in the replay i clearly was much more skilled than my opponent but ultimate my opponent tried to attack me with a collossi/gateway army that was relatively equal to my army in cost, and i decimated him in every attack i believe what mainly let me win was i was abusing the power of the roach. the roach is hard to kill even for collossi and roaches just roflstomp all the zealots and start working on the stalkers and roaches build in less than 30 seconds so you can reup a massive reinforcement quickly next, i slowly made my way to brood lords and it seems a brood lord / roach / mutalisk / queen army is capable of competing with protoss lategame army
Void Rays are really strong against Roaches, which is really the entire reason they are in the protoss deathball. Roaches are also really supply ineffecient, so not too good for 200/200 armies.
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EPT
