EPTI usually stop making drones after I have decent saturation on 3 bases. When I get more bases, I just take drones from my main and natural. Making a bunch more seems like a waste when my main and nat will be mining out pretty shortly anyway.
When do I stop building workers? - Page 2
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3clipse
Canada2555 Posts
I usually stop making drones after I have decent saturation on 3 bases. When I get more bases, I just take drones from my main and natural. Making a bunch more seems like a waste when my main and nat will be mining out pretty shortly anyway. | ||
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Archontas
United States319 Posts
-Yes, there are lots of builds that cut workers to crank out some extra units for a timing attack, -Yes, there are pro games where worker production stops to push out a stronger 200/200 army if they think they can get away with it (or if they absolutely have to, which is often the case for Zerg) -Yes, Terrans can toss away about 15-20 SCVs late game and harvest a base just using MULEs from 4+ Orbitals for some extra supply. 88 is just a ceiling, nothing more. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10321 Posts
So no you really shouldn't stop even at 70 or 80 workers; just don't ever stop building! haha Well unless since you're T, ofc later on you can transition into using Mules more (build "macro" OCs) so that you can keep your worker count at like 80 instead of 100+. Beyond that, you really don't need a max'd 200 army if you have twice the production of your opponent. It's not like all "200" food of that army can be attacking at once. | ||
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chenchen
United States1136 Posts
On February 01 2011 01:29 Bleak wrote: Try to expand before 20minutes. If you wait until that and only expand when you have too much workers, you're doing something wrong with your play. Expand around 10minutes or so with some bunkers, so that you can keep making workers at both bases. Cut worker production around 65-70 workers. Until that, keep making workers and depots. 100 ScV is too much, you should never have more than 70 workers ideally, or your army size will be gimped. Wait what?!? 10 minutes is a pretty slow expand, so you would have been one basing pretty hardcore, not the best idea, unless you're constantly pressuring your opponent. | ||
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bobdole
26 Posts
On February 01 2011 13:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Um tbh most of the time you shouldn't stop. Sure your max army will be much smaller, but your income will make up for it. Remember, even if you have 50 workers on one base, and it seems it may be a waste, you will get your expo starting that much faster and any kind of harassment trying to kill workers will still leave you at full income. So no you really shouldn't stop even at 70 or 80 workers; just don't ever stop building! haha Well unless since you're T, ofc later on you can transition into using Mules more (build "macro" OCs) so that you can keep your worker count at like 80 instead of 100+. Beyond that, you really don't need a max'd 200 army if you have twice the production of your opponent. It's not like all "200" food of that army can be attacking at once. I really hate seeing this, especially the 50 workers on one base. If for whatever reason you haven't expanded say past 50 supply, cut workers. There is no need to be making more workers after maybe 24 workers on minerals (personally I cut after 20) if you're stuck on one base (whether its to defend against an all-in or doing one yourself). You can try to argue that it allows your natural to saturate faster but if you can't expand, why are you still spending money on workers? With 25 extra workers, 8 of them could of gotten your expo up earlier instead and 17 of them could of been spent on army to make that expo safer. Also saturation of your natural isn't long when you resume worker production as your natural is going up and you have 2 buildings pumping out workers after. When to stop building workers near max army is kind of iffy to me too. Just remember a worker mines about 40-45 minerals per min before you have 2 workers per mineral field, after that it's 20 minerals per min on far patches and then its 10 for close patches (someone might want to correct these numbers and I think 3 workers never actually stay on close patches). Do you really want to spend 1 supply and 50 minerals so that a worker can mine 10 minerals per min when you're 180/200? These are numbers you want to remember when you all in too. What's the point of building workers to mine 10 per min when your all-in attacks in less than a min (if your all in doesn't include workers of course)? I know Huk counts his probes (I think he stops at 20 on minerals) and stops probe production if he hasn't expanded yet and his current bases are already saturated. Sen always makes sure he has at most 16 drones on minerals each base and only resumes drone production when he expands. I notice other top level pros don't really pay attention to this and I hope everyone, both under and in master league, eventually figures this out. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
20 drones/scv/probes on minerals gives you about 750 minerals per minute income 22 drones/scv/probes on minerals gives you 765 minerals per minute income the cutoff point for effectiveness and saturation for minerals is 20 drones/scv/probes. This means full saturation of the first base is 26 workers (6 on gas, 20 on minerals) normally people drop their first expansion at about the time they reach full saturation of their first base. At this moment you can make a decision 1) Do i keep building more workers while my expansion is building? 2) Do i wait until my expansion finishes to build more workers? Here is the answer. If you keep building more workers they have almost no effect on your income but you can transfer the extra workers to your expansion when your expansion finishes. However in high master league your opponent will normally scout you and attack right when you are trying to expand. In this scenario if you keep building workers then by the time your enemy attacks you that will be 200 minerals that is NOT IN YOUR ARMY and if your enemy is skilled not having those 200 minerals in your army could cost you the game. So it is a decision you have to make with your own game sense. You can choose to have a larger army to defend your expansion better as it builds, Or you can choose to have 5 more workers to saturate your expansion faster. Both options have their benefits, and you cannot have both. you must pick one or the other. This same scenario occurs every time you reach saturation and expand. So its up to you to use your game sense to pick the best option if you choose to keep building workers as you expand i would actually rally those new workers to your expansion minerals to long-distance-mine your expansion while your expansion is building. Because the income boost is SO SMALL when those extra workers are mining from your mainbase i think you actually get more income having that worker long-distance-mine your expansion minerals to your mainbase. this is optional however and it is just food for thought | ||
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han_han
United States205 Posts
At least in my experience, 30 is saturation point for a base (6 on two gasses, 24 on minerals), and as terran I tend not to saturate my 3rd and 4th since mules are going to be more valuable at that stage than SCVs which take supply. Edit: just read post above me Do what that guy says. If you are suspecting early pressure on your expo as you're making it don't continue to make workers just to reach 24 if you're already at like 20 on minerals. That's 200 minerals you need to have in marines to fend off that expo denial. | ||
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blackbrrd
Norway477 Posts
On February 01 2011 15:52 roymarthyup wrote: 16 drones/scv/probes on minerals gives you about 550 minerals per minute income 20 drones/scv/probes on minerals gives you about 750 minerals per minute income 22 drones/scv/probes on minerals gives you 765 minerals per minute income .... These numbers don't add up btw. 16 workers at 550minerals/min gives 34.375 minerals per worker per minute 20 workers at 750minerals/min gives 37.5 minerals per worker per minute. So, adding four workers from 16 to 20 increases the general productivety of a worker? That sounds very strange.... Found another post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=4863122 I just tested it for Terran, just mining minerals on 8 patches, no MULEs. 16 SCVs: 610-667, avg 639, ~39.9 per SCV 20 SCVs: 705-800, avg 753, ~37.6 per SCV, 4 more SCVs yield 29 each 24 SCVs: 781-876, avg 829, ~34.5 per SCV, 4 more SCVs yield 19 each 28 SCVs: 781-876 ==> 24 = saturated So if you have 20 SCVs mining, and you add another SCV, it will only be half as effective. so, 16 workers give about 640, not 550. | ||
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SpoR
United States1542 Posts
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Otherwise I'll keep producing SCVs till I hit 200/200 and then just focus on army. Usually nets me around 60-70 SCVs. | ||
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threehundred
Canada911 Posts
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
On February 01 2011 13:43 chenchen wrote: Wait what?!? 10 minutes is a pretty slow expand, so you would have been one basing pretty hardcore, not the best idea, unless you're constantly pressuring your opponent. I just pulled the number out of my ass, 10 can also be late...Make it 6-7 or so then. Anyway my point stands. Waiting 20min to expand isn't a good thing. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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Omni17
United States141 Posts
On February 01 2011 01:30 Corvette wrote: Generally you make workers non-stop because your opponent will be harrassing your workers through out the game. If you ever have a surplus of workers and you need supply then use them as meatshield/repair/build turrets around your tanks etc. y Very true, but usually during a late game you want a ton of workers so that you can win the macro battle. If you're the type to have tons of workers and smaller armies, then make lots of unit producing structures, and just bombard your enemy with your epic economy. You might lose the initial first battle just because of the food differential, but you will be able to pump out reinforcements at an incredible rate. | ||
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DustyShelf
United Kingdom111 Posts
There is this really bizarre attitude that more bases == WAHAY ECON. Which is kinda right but slightly wrong at the same time. There is no need to have 50 bases if you only have 22 workers. The number of workers limit the amount of optimal bases (unless you're trying to just harvest a ton of gas). As most people want to eventually be three base the correct number of workers for three base is approximately ((8 * 2) (3*2) * 3) or 66. That's mineral patches * 2 and gas geysers * 3. Additional workers on gas do nothing and extra workers on minerals will not be as efficient as the first 22 (they will bounce around). It's personal preference whether you want bouncing to happen but remember that if you see it it means those workers would be more efficient on a less populated base. I'd guess once you hit 8*3 workers on minerals adding more SCVs wont help at all (could someone clarify?) So basically when creating workers you'll want to be considering what your next step is. If you're setting up for an expansion and you're presently on one base, then oversaturate and keep making the workers in preparation for the transfer. If you're planning to one base all-in then consider only making 22 workers + builders. Don't use a rule of thumb, I hear people say "get 80" that's bollocks, no-one is going to add up all their SCVs to see if they have 80. Nor is 80 really an optimal amount for anything. What you can do though is count the workers at each expansion and decide whether you have enough or not at that expansion. Obviously its worth bearing in mind that Terran need a few spare workers for scouting, repairing and building stuffs. | ||
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Mystogun
United States392 Posts
On February 01 2011 01:34 ZeromuS wrote: If you need to ask when to stop making workers then you aren't ready to stop making workers. I don't remember who to attribute this quote to maybe artosis or tyler or maybe artosis quoted tyler our vice versa but I think it was one of the two It's Tyler (: But you should generally stop around 80-85 probes if you're on three bases. | ||
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KillerPlague
United States1386 Posts
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
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LarJarsE
United States1378 Posts
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Sv1
United States204 Posts
Terran and protoss are a little more consistent in their saturation times. Terran saturates around the 9 minute mark while toss is just a little earlier. Zerg comes in waves so it needs to be done by eye/dragging. Of course you can keep building to transfer later on, however you don't want to build them all game. Because then you've reinforced a bad habit that may cost you a game later on. | ||
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