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One thing that I feel has been a real problem with games that extend beyond 20mins is that I have way too many workers and subsequently over-saturation on my bases. At no point do I ever cease worker production until I am capped for supply. If i feel a base has more than 36 workers, i just expand again.
Obviously this can create a myriad of problems, 2 main one's being:
1. I play terran, so MULEs mean i mine out very quickly and am basically forced to expand, creating windows for opponents to attack.
2. Because i habitually exceed 100 SCVs, i find that though i can re-macro a maxed ay quickly, it is smaller than my opponents.
So my question is, when do i stop worker production in the first 15mins? I thought u never do, because u can simply maynard from main to natural and from natural to 3rd base. Also, in the lategame, how do i free up supply effectively, scv's as meat-shields for bio, or repair for mech?
Thanks
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Try to expand before 20minutes. If you wait until that and only expand when you have too much workers, you're doing something wrong with your play. Expand around 10minutes or so with some bunkers, so that you can keep making workers at both bases. Cut worker production around 65-70 workers. Until that, keep making workers and depots.
100 ScV is too much, you should never have more than 70 workers ideally, or your army size will be gimped.
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Generally you make workers non-stop because your opponent will be harrassing your workers through out the game.
If you ever have a surplus of workers and you need supply then use them as meatshield/repair/build turrets around your tanks etc.
If your army is too small compared to his then try not to engage directly and just pick him apart bit by bit using drops and such
w/o a replay theres not much else i can say
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you should go back and watch your replays to figure out when you hit about 70 scvs, timing wise. I know that as I am taking my 3rd at about 100-110 food, I am well on my way to 60 probes so I start to cut it down just a little bit so that I don't get 100+ probes on 3 bases like I used to all the time
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A new idea steadily getting more popular is building multiple orbital commands and then killing off scv's and relying on mules, obviously leaving some scv's for gas.
Other than that the number of scv's you get is very dependant on the game, but i normally dont want to be exceeding 80-90, because i want to be able to utilize my good economy from those miners with a good army, having 100+ scv's meaning your army will be a lot weaker, and although you can replace it quickly it will get easily shredded.
And again i'd say that what you should use scv's for is dependant on the game, healing for mech and meatshields are both viable uses, and each is potentially better than the other in certain situations  , you be the judge.
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Canada13389 Posts
If you need to ask when to stop making workers then you aren't ready to stop making workers.
I don't remember who to attribute this quote to maybe artosis or tyler or maybe artosis quoted tyler our vice versa but I think it was one of the two
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On February 01 2011 01:30 Corvette wrote:
Generally you make workers non-stop because your opponent will be harrassing your workers through out the game.
Well that is not really correct. You constantly make workers because:
1) It gives you more income, so you can make more units
2) When you expand, you can easily transfer your workers without crippling the main mining base(s)
3) You need 24 workers for the best income on minerals, add 6 gas, that makes 30. Say you expanded, you already need 60 workers for the best scenario. 10 more workers or so is good because you can take one more expo with only gas if you need it, or just take a third and only mine 3 gas, send rest to the third for more mineral income so and so on.
In shorter words, more workers allows you room for flexibility and efficiency in organizing your economy.
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On February 01 2011 01:34 ZeromuS wrote:
If you need to ask when to stop making workers then you aren't ready to stop making workers.
I don't remember who to attribute this quote to maybe artosis or tyler or maybe artosis quoted tyler our vice versa but I think it was one of the two
don't take quotes for what they are.. figure out the reasoning behind them!
100 scvs is clearly too many. 60-70 is a good number to stop at. it's difficult to count SCVs obviously you can't press U and have a units tab pop up on the top left 
if you're expanding well you'll be able to have a feel for it, roughly 3 bases of decent saturation is where you can probably stop.
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first off 36 on one base is over saturated. late game you can always sac scvs with your push after getting 5 more orbitals and keep taking bases untill there are no more. and keep pumping upgrades units etc
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Is there a way to know or check how many workers that you have during a game?
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no, you can't get an exact number but what you can do is check the saturation at your bases. you want ~16-20 on minerals at each of your bases and more if you are looking to expand again so you can instantly saturate
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Eventually, you should be able to eyeball when an expansion is over saturated. You should only see a few SCVs darting back and forth to find an empty mineral patch. If a lot of them are doing it, you have too many.
60-70 workers is the sweet spot for most purposes.
Fortunately, Terran has the best way to make use of too many worker units. Select them all, right click on repair, and bring some with your army. Self repairing SCVs are decent meat shields early on, but you shouldn't be pushing mech without your mech medics!
SCVs are also great for building forward bases. Bunkers, missile turrets, sensor towers, and plain ol' hunks of barracks are all effective ways to control choke points and secure map control. There are plenty of ways to keep SCVs busy when they aren't fixing up mech.
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You should never stop building workers.
If you feel you have too much and need more army send some to your opponents natural and scout his army while sacrificing your spare workers.
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On February 01 2011 01:34 ZeromuS wrote:
If you need to ask when to stop making workers then you aren't ready to stop making workers.
I don't remember who to attribute this quote to maybe artosis or tyler or maybe artosis quoted tyler our vice versa but I think it was one of the two
Did you even read the friggin op?
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On February 01 2011 01:24 dbkim92 wrote:
So my question is, when do i stop worker production in the first 15mins?
there's no single rule that works for every situation, however for a standard, non-allin macro game, you generally want continually produce workers in the first 15 minutes. The first 15 minutes are the most critical to your economy.
If you're getting 100+ scvs, you're well into the late-game. Late-game, you don't necessarily want to keep producing scvs out of 4 bases.
An optimally saturated base has 16 scvs mining minerals + 6 scvs mining gas = 22 scvs. At 4 active bases, you have 88 scvs, I think this is a good end-game goal to shoot for. By the time you are ready to take your 5th, your main is usually mined out, so you can just transfer your scvs to the new base.
There's 2 ways to see how saturated a base is:
1. drag-select the scvs, see how many are mining minerals
2. play so many games of sc2 that you can tell at a glance if a mineral line is saturated or not.
I would go with #1 if you're anything less than high diamond. Once you get the right # of scvs at each base, you will know what that looks like, so you can get this info 'on-the-fly' once you get good and play a lot of games.
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Im not sure if this applies to every race but pro Zerg players say 16 workers harvesting minerals per base is as efficient as you can get. Yes 3 workers per mineral patch will bring in more income than 16 workers per expansion but if you took those 3 workers per patch and spread them across 2 bases your income would actually be better than if they were all mining the same base. So 22 workers per base (6 on gas 16 on minerals) is Ideal. If you want to expand make extra workers so you can saturate your expansion when its ready if your not expanding anymore theres no reason to make more workers like if you were going for a 2 base all in or something.
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Legit if your macro is awesome and you ever get in a 2-3 Base situation. All-In is realistically the best choice. Like you could try to outproduce your opponent, but nothing says "Fuck You im Terran" like a 70 worker push with 10 + unit producing structures rallying to their main. And i mean this mostly in TvZ, don't think it would be too effective in the other matchups, unless you are talking about an earlier all in, which you are not.
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I usually expand at around 6mins=\
Anyways, thanks for advice guys. Ive figured out the time i get abt 70 workers (almost always when i get my third) and ive stopped then.
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For Terran 2 base saturation of workers is enough, slightly more for Z and P since they like to take thirds quickly.
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As a zerg, I usually don't like to get more than 70 drones (although I know I play a more drone-light style than many in order to have a slightly bigger maxed army). Getting around 80 is fine if you want to play a style revolving around heavier aggression and frequent army trading since maxing out won't be as much of an issue and you'll need the strong econ. I think 90 is certainly overkill.
I usually stop making drones after I have decent saturation on 3 bases. When I get more bases, I just take drones from my main and natural. Making a bunch more seems like a waste when my main and nat will be mining out pretty shortly anyway.
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88 workers lets you saturate 4 bases (2 per mineral patch, 3 per geyser) and is generally considered the most you would ever want to have. Any more than that and you are compromising the size of a maxed army for income you won't be able to spend fast enough anyway.
-Yes, there are lots of builds that cut workers to crank out some extra units for a timing attack,
-Yes, there are pro games where worker production stops to push out a stronger 200/200 army if they think they can get away with it (or if they absolutely have to, which is often the case for Zerg)
-Yes, Terrans can toss away about 15-20 SCVs late game and harvest a base just using MULEs from 4+ Orbitals for some extra supply.
88 is just a ceiling, nothing more.
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Um tbh most of the time you shouldn't stop. Sure your max army will be much smaller, but your income will make up for it. Remember, even if you have 50 workers on one base, and it seems it may be a waste, you will get your expo starting that much faster and any kind of harassment trying to kill workers will still leave you at full income.
So no you really shouldn't stop even at 70 or 80 workers; just don't ever stop building! haha
Well unless since you're T, ofc later on you can transition into using Mules more (build "macro" OCs) so that you can keep your worker count at like 80 instead of 100+. Beyond that, you really don't need a max'd 200 army if you have twice the production of your opponent. It's not like all "200" food of that army can be attacking at once.
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On February 01 2011 01:29 Bleak wrote:
Try to expand before 20minutes. If you wait until that and only expand when you have too much workers, you're doing something wrong with your play. Expand around 10minutes or so with some bunkers, so that you can keep making workers at both bases. Cut worker production around 65-70 workers. Until that, keep making workers and depots.
100 ScV is too much, you should never have more than 70 workers ideally, or your army size will be gimped.
Wait what?!?
10 minutes is a pretty slow expand, so you would have been one basing pretty hardcore, not the best idea, unless you're constantly pressuring your opponent.
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On February 01 2011 13:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Um tbh most of the time you shouldn't stop. Sure your max army will be much smaller, but your income will make up for it. Remember, even if you have 50 workers on one base, and it seems it may be a waste, you will get your expo starting that much faster and any kind of harassment trying to kill workers will still leave you at full income.
So no you really shouldn't stop even at 70 or 80 workers; just don't ever stop building! haha
Well unless since you're T, ofc later on you can transition into using Mules more (build "macro" OCs) so that you can keep your worker count at like 80 instead of 100+. Beyond that, you really don't need a max'd 200 army if you have twice the production of your opponent. It's not like all "200" food of that army can be attacking at once.
I really hate seeing this, especially the 50 workers on one base. If for whatever reason you haven't expanded say past 50 supply, cut workers. There is no need to be making more workers after maybe 24 workers on minerals (personally I cut after 20) if you're stuck on one base (whether its to defend against an all-in or doing one yourself). You can try to argue that it allows your natural to saturate faster but if you can't expand, why are you still spending money on workers? With 25 extra workers, 8 of them could of gotten your expo up earlier instead and 17 of them could of been spent on army to make that expo safer. Also saturation of your natural isn't long when you resume worker production as your natural is going up and you have 2 buildings pumping out workers after.
When to stop building workers near max army is kind of iffy to me too. Just remember a worker mines about 40-45 minerals per min before you have 2 workers per mineral field, after that it's 20 minerals per min on far patches and then its 10 for close patches (someone might want to correct these numbers and I think 3 workers never actually stay on close patches). Do you really want to spend 1 supply and 50 minerals so that a worker can mine 10 minerals per min when you're 180/200? These are numbers you want to remember when you all in too. What's the point of building workers to mine 10 per min when your all-in attacks in less than a min (if your all in doesn't include workers of course)?
I know Huk counts his probes (I think he stops at 20 on minerals) and stops probe production if he hasn't expanded yet and his current bases are already saturated. Sen always makes sure he has at most 16 drones on minerals each base and only resumes drone production when he expands. I notice other top level pros don't really pay attention to this and I hope everyone, both under and in master league, eventually figures this out.
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16 drones/scv/probes on minerals gives you about 550 minerals per minute income
20 drones/scv/probes on minerals gives you about 750 minerals per minute income
22 drones/scv/probes on minerals gives you 765 minerals per minute income
the cutoff point for effectiveness and saturation for minerals is 20 drones/scv/probes. This means full saturation of the first base is 26 workers (6 on gas, 20 on minerals)
normally people drop their first expansion at about the time they reach full saturation of their first base.
At this moment you can make a decision
1) Do i keep building more workers while my expansion is building?
2) Do i wait until my expansion finishes to build more workers?
Here is the answer. If you keep building more workers they have almost no effect on your income but you can transfer the extra workers to your expansion when your expansion finishes.
However in high master league your opponent will normally scout you and attack right when you are trying to expand. In this scenario if you keep building workers then by the time your enemy attacks you that will be 200 minerals that is NOT IN YOUR ARMY and if your enemy is skilled not having those 200 minerals in your army could cost you the game.
So it is a decision you have to make with your own game sense. You can choose to have a larger army to defend your expansion better as it builds, Or you can choose to have 5 more workers to saturate your expansion faster.
Both options have their benefits, and you cannot have both. you must pick one or the other.
This same scenario occurs every time you reach saturation and expand. So its up to you to use your game sense to pick the best option
if you choose to keep building workers as you expand i would actually rally those new workers to your expansion minerals to long-distance-mine your expansion while your expansion is building. Because the income boost is SO SMALL when those extra workers are mining from your mainbase i think you actually get more income having that worker long-distance-mine your expansion minerals to your mainbase. this is optional however and it is just food for thought
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You cut workers when your base is saturated, or when you are trying to mass an army.
At least in my experience, 30 is saturation point for a base (6 on two gasses, 24 on minerals), and as terran I tend not to saturate my 3rd and 4th since mules are going to be more valuable at that stage than SCVs which take supply.
Edit: just read post above me
Do what that guy says. If you are suspecting early pressure on your expo as you're making it don't continue to make workers just to reach 24 if you're already at like 20 on minerals. That's 200 minerals you need to have in marines to fend off that expo denial.
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On February 01 2011 15:52 roymarthyup wrote:
16 drones/scv/probes on minerals gives you about 550 minerals per minute income
20 drones/scv/probes on minerals gives you about 750 minerals per minute income
22 drones/scv/probes on minerals gives you 765 minerals per minute income
....
These numbers don't add up btw.
16 workers at 550minerals/min gives 34.375 minerals per worker per minute
20 workers at 750minerals/min gives 37.5 minerals per worker per minute.
So, adding four workers from 16 to 20 increases the general productivety of a worker? That sounds very strange....
Found another post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=4863122
I just tested it for Terran, just mining minerals on 8 patches, no MULEs.
16 SCVs: 610-667, avg 639, ~39.9 per SCV
20 SCVs: 705-800, avg 753, ~37.6 per SCV, 4 more SCVs yield 29 each
24 SCVs: 781-876, avg 829, ~34.5 per SCV, 4 more SCVs yield 19 each
28 SCVs: 781-876 ==> 24 = saturated
So if you have 20 SCVs mining, and you add another SCV, it will only be half as effective.
so, 16 workers give about 640, not 550.
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for terran I would assume less because of mules (depends how many Orbitals you have as well). For zerg you should generally have like 65-75 workers. Any more and your army is gonna start being too puny. Ultras eat a lot of supply, and queens at each hatch take up 2 supply as well. So for every extra base you have to support more than 75-80 workers , its either going to have no queen or take up 2 supply + the workers supply cost to run it.
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Generally I don't stop SCV production unless I'm contained in my main.
Otherwise I'll keep producing SCVs till I hit 200/200 and then just focus on army.
Usually nets me around 60-70 SCVs.
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i have a habit of building 100's of workers too as terran. depending on the game really, just take a handful with you as you grab a 4th base and use them with your main attack force. you're usually 200/200 by then and slowly banking up money
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On February 01 2011 13:43 chenchen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 01:29 Bleak wrote:
Try to expand before 20minutes. If you wait until that and only expand when you have too much workers, you're doing something wrong with your play. Expand around 10minutes or so with some bunkers, so that you can keep making workers at both bases. Cut worker production around 65-70 workers. Until that, keep making workers and depots.
100 ScV is too much, you should never have more than 70 workers ideally, or your army size will be gimped. Wait what?!? 10 minutes is a pretty slow expand, so you would have been one basing pretty hardcore, not the best idea, unless you're constantly pressuring your opponent.
I just pulled the number out of my ass, 10 can also be late...Make it 6-7 or so then.
Anyway my point stands. Waiting 20min to expand isn't a good thing.
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best minute for fist exp is 6-7 for second is 10-12, for third is 15. i do not build more than 50 worker,because i have mule :D
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On February 01 2011 01:30 Corvette wrote:
Generally you make workers non-stop because your opponent will be harrassing your workers through out the game.
If you ever have a surplus of workers and you need supply then use them as meatshield/repair/build turrets around your tanks etc.
y
Very true, but usually during a late game you want a ton of workers so that you can win the macro battle. If you're the type to have tons of workers and smaller armies, then make lots of unit producing structures, and just bombard your enemy with your epic economy. You might lose the initial first battle just because of the food differential, but you will be able to pump out reinforcements at an incredible rate.
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Count your workers at each base.
There is this really bizarre attitude that more bases == WAHAY ECON. Which is kinda right but slightly wrong at the same time. There is no need to have 50 bases if you only have 22 workers.
The number of workers limit the amount of optimal bases (unless you're trying to just harvest a ton of gas). As most people want to eventually be three base the correct number of workers for three base is approximately ((8 * 2) (3*2) * 3) or 66. That's mineral patches * 2 and gas geysers * 3.
Additional workers on gas do nothing and extra workers on minerals will not be as efficient as the first 22 (they will bounce around). It's personal preference whether you want bouncing to happen but remember that if you see it it means those workers would be more efficient on a less populated base.
I'd guess once you hit 8*3 workers on minerals adding more SCVs wont help at all (could someone clarify?)
So basically when creating workers you'll want to be considering what your next step is. If you're setting up for an expansion and you're presently on one base, then oversaturate and keep making the workers in preparation for the transfer.
If you're planning to one base all-in then consider only making 22 workers + builders.
Don't use a rule of thumb, I hear people say "get 80" that's bollocks, no-one is going to add up all their SCVs to see if they have 80. Nor is 80 really an optimal amount for anything.
What you can do though is count the workers at each expansion and decide whether you have enough or not at that expansion.
Obviously its worth bearing in mind that Terran need a few spare workers for scouting, repairing and building stuffs.
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On February 01 2011 01:34 ZeromuS wrote:
If you need to ask when to stop making workers then you aren't ready to stop making workers.
I don't remember who to attribute this quote to maybe artosis or tyler or maybe artosis quoted tyler our vice versa but I think it was one of the two
It's Tyler (:
But you should generally stop around 80-85 probes if you're on three bases.
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stop at about 70-80 workers mining from as many bases and you can hold safely.
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I would go with what Nony/Tyler said. If you have to ask that question you're not ready to stop making them.
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The golden rule is: If you dont know when to stop, you should never stop!
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I have to throw my hat in and say "don't stop" is bad advice. But I Say that as endearing as possible. At lower levels, getting the habit of constantly building workers is good because it's a foundation ability and generally the lower level games may not last beyond the first push. However, in higher levels, stopping workers at the correct time could be the difference in a few units which can lead to a number of outcomes based on the game. e.g. units for a drop, an extra production building, supply that stops a supply block etc.
Terran and protoss are a little more consistent in their saturation times. Terran saturates around the 9 minute mark while toss is just a little earlier. Zerg comes in waves so it needs to be done by eye/dragging.
Of course you can keep building to transfer later on, however you don't want to build them all game. Because then you've reinforced a bad habit that may cost you a game later on.
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The most efficient use of your workers would to be have 2 workers per mineral patch and 3 per gas. Since most bases have 8 mineral patches you want ideally 16 mining minerals and 6 mining gas. Just do 22 times the number of mining bases you have and you should have your ideal amount. If you see workers are just moving back and forth it means you are oversaturated so transfer some to a different base.
Mineral patches can support up to 3 workers, but the increase in income most of the time does not warrant the extra workers you made. Since you are terran, if you find yourself having too many workers just use them in a push for mass repair or something of the like. Also, when you are muling, always try to cycle through your mineral patches and always use them on your newest expansions so they run out more evenly.
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Double click a mining peon. This selects all peons on your screen (which should be the mineral patch you're checking). Subtract 2x from the total number of units selected where X is the number of gas geysers being fully mined. This tells you the total number of workers mining the minerals.
Assuming 3 peons per geyser, one peon will always be inside the refinery with two peons carrying vespene to the town hall. So when you subtract 2x from selected worker count, you're subtracting the gas miners.
There are 8 units per row of selected units. So long as you keep the worker count at 3 rows of scvs, you're saturated.
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Once I max my army, I stop making workers. Assuming normal macro, this works out for me to be at about 3 base saturation.
It's a good timing to remember. If you have 100 workers when you max, either your army got slaughtered or you're not macro'ing very well in terms of production.
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Depends on your base count.
You should have 22 workers per base for full saturation (2 per each of the 8 mineral patches + 3 on each of the 2 geysers).
I usually stop at 66 because if i expand twice (so im on 3 bases) im generally mined out of my main and can move the workers there to my fourth.
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Keep two mineral lines saturated and 4-6 geysers in operation by the late game; preferrably 6.
You want to get your third when your main runs out, you want to get your 4rth when your natural runs out.
You also want to start grabbing expansions as your working geysers start shutting down.
So a general rule of thumb would be 16x + 6y workers where x is the number of mineral lines and y is the number of geysers. This is true until your 4rth Orbital Command.
Mules, when used every 50 energy, is akin to having 3-4 scvs mining minerals. Meaning 4-5 Orbital Commands mine as well as 12-20 scvs. By your 4rth base it's more efficient to build a 5th OC and only keep one mineral line saturated (16-24 scvs) and having the second mineral line be saturated by mules. You still want 4-6 gas geysers running which take up 12-18 scvs.
That means by lategame you want a maximum of 42 (24 on minerals 18 on gas) scvs mining gas/minerals and the rest of it be mules.
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This is why I always lose. I usually have 120 probes in end-game, and when I attack, I don't know why my army just gets massacred. It's because he has so many resources, sacrificed all his scv's for his supply, and is just gonna all-in me.
However, there are way more moments where I just overrun the opponent with warp prism + pylon + main army multi-prong attack. However, I don't focus on the warp prism and the pylon getting out alive, I just use it to distract the main army to the main base while attacking the more important sections (income bases).
Having a lot of workers allow you to just re-max over and over, but if you can't somehow destroy his economy you'll lose by a final all-in.
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when you have 3+ bases 70-100 is ok but if you're on 2 base and starving cut at 50ish 40ish then when you get expos keep up, but I think the Max worker count should not be over 85-90, and that in big macro maps like Kulas Ravine or GSL maps, apart from those I recomend stay low on the workers :D
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EPT
