EPTThe only way I could see it working it with a burrow counterattack or a ling counterattack...but then isn't that just a baserace?
I guess what I'm asking is how do you beat large roach numbers early on without going roaches yourself?
Simple Questions Simple Answers - Page 306
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Mong00se
13 Posts
The only way I could see it working it with a burrow counterattack or a ling counterattack...but then isn't that just a baserace? I guess what I'm asking is how do you beat large roach numbers early on without going roaches yourself? | ||
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Heafmo
United Kingdom70 Posts
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ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On August 02 2011 01:15 ToastieNL wrote: I'm looking for the Blueflame Hellion build + drops the SlayerS team popularised. Could anybody help me out? Both vT as vZ please. I saw BoxeR's TvZ vs IdrA and from what I could tell from watching, it goes like this: You do a standard Reactor Hellion expo, but instead of having your rax produce pure rines after the addon swap, you have it produce a tech lab, and you keep on mining gas. Once there are 4 or 6 hellions on the field, you swap back, and begin researching blue flame and double pumping rines as your expo comes up. You're posturing aggressively with your hellions and looking for a way to get into his drone line or get free zergling kills. You lay down a starport, and when your medivac arrives you elevator ~8 hellions and your marines into the zerg main. I don't know the exact food counts since I don't have the VoDs, but this is what it looked like watching it live. Also: When blue flame finishes you swap the tech lab back to the barracks for stim research. You will be adding on more barracks, as well. In the event your elevator attack fails, you still have the ability to transition into a marine/tank play, or make a stim timing attack like BoxeR did. EDIT: + Show Spoiler [BoxeR vs IdrA MLG] + Remember that this is a map control play; you're trying to keep most of zerg's statics at the front of his nat so that you can get an easy attack on his main. This is why you didn't see BoxeR walling, because he anticipated IdrA not being able to move out. | ||
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ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
 ! Seeing as, as Zerg, I <3 Mapcontrol.Just learning some Terran to go and play random from now on :D So, to make it clear: Reactor Hellion Expand (Barracks makes Techlab Research Blueflame + 2x Marines pump Grab 2nd Gas + make Medivac Possible transitions: Near Endless It's basically a delayed 1/1/1? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On August 02 2011 01:44 ToastieNL wrote: I know how the build is designed. I'm starting to play Terran atm and I thought this 'd be a really cool build ! Seeing as, as Zerg, I <3 Mapcontrol.Just learning some Terran to go and play random from now on :D So, to make it clear: Reactor Hellion Expand (Barracks makes Techlab Research Blueflame + 2x Marines pump Grab 2nd Gas + make Medivac Possible transitions: Near Endless It's basically a delayed 1/1/1? That sounds correct to me. Hellions will give you great map control until zerg has lair tech either for Roach speed or Mutalisks (EDIT: or Infestors-- you have to be careful around them). Alternatively, he could slap down a bunch of crawlers and push out with roaches not fearing a counter-attack, but that's mineral and drone intensive and not a great move on his part. Your gas expenditures go like this: 100 for a factory, 50 for a reactor then 25 for a tech lab then 150 for blue flame At which point you've spent like 325 gas. Usually by the time you've spent this much gas, you've already started your starport; which is why it will be a little delayed relative to immediately building it after the factory. But you don't really need the medivac until you have plenty of marines and hellions, so it's okay to delay it. If you want to go into marine/tank, I think you'll want to take the two gasses at your nat pretty quickly, since you've invested into blue flame and starport tech early and don't have any tanks on the field, and only 1 factory. Also, your barracks is conveniently on a tech lab for researching stim. | ||
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nickyboy909
72 Posts
i've tried a few different openings and i usually get around 7 minutes but i start to pool resources so there's definitely room to either make it faster or add some tech, what time should i be aiming for to get 2 bases full? I'm low league (gold) but I want to know the optimal build and time it takes to saturate 2 bases. | ||
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galtdunn
United States977 Posts
On August 02 2011 02:39 nickyboy909 wrote: What is the quickest way to saturate 2 bases (16 on min, 6 on gas) for my opening? what should i do, 15 hatch, 15 pool what? etc i've tried a few different openings and i usually get around 7 minutes but i start to pool resources so there's definitely room to either make it faster or add some tech, what time should i be aiming for to get 2 bases full? I'm low league (gold) but I want to know the optimal build and time it takes to saturate 2 bases. The optimal way to saturate 2 bases requires getting your second base up as fast as possible (for larvae production and obviously to have the second base). Therefore 15hatch/15pool is the bast build. something like 15 hatch 15 pool gas whenever you want after pool depending on how fast you want ling speed. queen +1-2 pairs of lings as pool finishes. then just get your second and third queens at your natural hatch and drone. Make sure you scout any incoming attack etc by your opponent though. Fully saturated bases do not help against a surprise blue flame hellion attack  | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12041 Posts
I've got a question about TvP. Before I used to be fine with TvP but now every toss seems to go zealot/templar/archon and I really can't work out how to deal with it. Is there anything that's changed for a T's point of view to give me more of a chance? I think I may need more ghosts, but I'm just at a loss of what to do. | ||
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Island
Sweden22 Posts
On August 02 2011 02:39 nickyboy909 wrote: What time should i be aiming for to get 2 bases full? 6:30 at the latest, if you do nothing but drone and hold gas for as long as possible. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On August 02 2011 03:05 Qikz wrote: I used to play all the time and was close to getting to Masters. I've had a break and since I've come back my decision making has been pretty bad where the matchups have evolved and generally just being rusty. I've got a question about TvP. Before I used to be fine with TvP but now every toss seems to go zealot/templar/archon and I really can't work out how to deal with it. Is there anything that's changed for a T's point of view to give me more of a chance? I think I may need more ghosts, but I'm just at a loss of what to do. Chargelot-Archon is a pretty common deal, now that Archons are no longer affected by concussive shells and have 3 range. A Big Change that happened to Terran to let us deal with this is Ghosts only cost 100 gas now-- so where before you would have 2 ghosts, now you can have 3. Other than that it's business as usual, with Archons acting like tankier, somewhat less DPS-ey colossi that are more susceptible to EMP. If I think protoss is going for a transition from Colossus to Templar Archon Chargelot, I build a pre-emptive ghost academy and research reactor. | ||
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nickyboy909
72 Posts
On August 02 2011 03:08 Island wrote: 6:30 at the latest, if you do nothing but drone and hold gas for as long as possible. urgh lol the best i can get is 6:50  lol do you have any replays with 2base saturation at 6:30? if not can you show me or something? thanks in advance | ||
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galtdunn
United States977 Posts
On August 02 2011 03:12 Blazinghand wrote: Chargelot-Archon is a pretty common deal, now that Archons are no longer affected by concussive shells and have 3 range. A Big Change that happened to Terran to let us deal with this is Ghosts only cost 100 gas now-- so where before you would have 2 ghosts, now you can have 3. Other than that it's business as usual, with Archons acting like tankier, somewhat less DPS-ey colossi that are more susceptible to EMP. If I think protoss is going for a transition from Colossus to Templar Archon Chargelot, I build a pre-emptive ghost academy and research reactor. Yeah i think the current answer right now is ghosts. Lots of ghosts. You could try Puma's strategy of early drops in order to get yourself time to get the ghosts out. He was great in the NASL. Also, what do people think about battlecruisers or banshees as an answer? only problem i can think of is being suceptible to feedback. But you could always EMP your own units. | ||
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-Aura-
United States209 Posts
When scouting, I stay in his base until his stalker is about to pop. What does 1 gas when his stalker pops mean? What does 2 gas mean? What does 2 gates mean? What conclusions can i draw if he has 50%+ chrono left? When going 2 Rax Expo, if he hasn't expanded should i even try to push up the ramp with my initial poke? Should I bring 2 scvs and set up a contain with bunkers at his natural? Or should I just retreat and expand and play defensively? At what supply, game time, or after which unit/building do i scan to decide whether to go ghosts or vikings? Should i get ghosts if I see he has 5-6 gates after his first expansion? Should I get the ghosts before or after my third command center? In the late game, at 200/200, what is the optimal number of ghosts I want in my army? 10? 20? As many as possible? How do I deal with a protoss player who stays with mass gateway units into the lategame? What do I do about a protoss who leaves 5-6 stalkers patrolling the edge of his main and is active enough to immediately snipe drops? Especially on maps like XNC where 5 stalkers can defend his whole main and he can just park his army by his natural, how can I harass? If I can't harass, it seems I automatically lose to equal macro, because of the deathball advantage. Asides for multi pronged drops, is there any other way to harass? Should I throw down an engineering bay extra fast if the protoss isn't fast expanding for fear of DTs or stargate units? If so, at what supply, game time, or after what unit/structure should I throw it down if he hasn't expanded yet? Also, what is the counter to an early robo? Meaning, if I see he has one, should i switch my BO? Also, do all these questions warrant their own thread? Here is my current Build Order: 10 Depot 12 Rax 13 Gas 15 OC 15 Marine 16 Rax 16 Reactor (first rax) 17 Depot 21 Depot 21 Tech lab (second rax) 27 Concussive Shells 27 Depot 36 Poke with marines, 2marauders and concussive shells 36 Stim 40 Expand 42 Depot 46 Factory 46 2nd Gas 46 (optional) 2 bunkers at Natural 51 OC 53 Ebay 60 Depot 60 Starport 60 Reactor (factory) 65 Depot 65 Infantry Weapons level 1 65 Turret at Natural 66 Depot 68 2nd Gas 68 Combat Shields 77 Rax x2 78 Depot x3 Expand Ghost Academy Infantry Armor level 1 armory ebay more rax etc. Thanks to anyone who bothered to read the whole thing. | ||
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nickyboy909
72 Posts
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On August 02 2011 03:31 -Aura- wrote: Questions about TvP: When scouting, I stay in his base until his stalker is about to pop. What does 1 gas when his stalker pops mean? What does 2 gas mean? What does 2 gates mean? What conclusions can i draw if he has 50%+ chrono left? If there's only 1 gas, he's either fast expanding or 4gating you. You'll need to scout him again, using a hellion, scout rax, scan or poke to determine which. If there's 2 gas, he's either teching or fast expanding. You'll need to scout him again with a hellion, scout rax, or scan to narrow it down. If he doesn't expo: If there's 2 gasses and stored chrono boost, and he's not chrono-boosting his warp gate research, he's probably making void rays. If there's 2 gasses and the chrono boost is used heavily, he's going for DTs. If you see a robo, he's all-inning with immortals or colossi. If you see an expansion, he's fast expanding, not teching. On August 02 2011 03:31 -Aura- wrote: When going 2 Rax Expo, if he hasn't expanded should i even try to push up the ramp with my initial poke? Should I bring 2 scvs and set up a contain with bunkers at his natural? Or should I just retreat and expand and play defensively? If he hasn't expanded, retreat and sit on your expo. play it safe, get a turret for detection and anti-air and medivacs. IF's he's gonna stay on 1 base, just make the most of your two. On August 02 2011 03:31 -Aura- wrote: If you see a robotics bay, get vikings. If you see a templar archives, get ghosts. If you see a twilight council but no templar archives, get a ghost academy and be ready to make ghosts.At what supply, game time, or after which unit/building do i scan to decide whether to go ghosts or vikings? Should i get ghosts if I see he has 5-6 gates after his first expansion? Should I get the ghosts before or after my third command center? On August 02 2011 03:31 -Aura- wrote: Mass gateway is beaten by MMM with ghost support for sentries and templar. 20 ghosts is overkill, 10 should be mor ethan adequate.In the late game, at 200/200, what is the optimal number of ghosts I want in my army? 10? 20? As many as possible? How do I deal with a protoss player who stays with mass gateway units into the lategame? On August 02 2011 03:31 -Aura- wrote: What do I do about a protoss who leaves 5-6 stalkers patrolling the edge of his main and is active enough to immediately snipe drops? Especially on maps like XNC where 5 stalkers can defend his whole main and he can just park his army by his natural, how can I harass? IF his army is down by 10 food, you might want to engage it head-on. If he's not seizeing map control, take your 3rd. On August 02 2011 03:31 -Aura- wrote: If I can't harass, it seems I automatically lose to equal macro, because of the deathball advantage. Asides for multi pronged drops, is there any other way to harass? If you can't harass because he's playing it safe, don't let it get to equal macro; if he's cowering in his base take your third and crush him. On August 02 2011 03:31 -Aura- wrote: If you thinnk he's rushing DTs, throw down an engi bay immediately. Wall with whatever buildings you can to buy time.Should I throw down an engineering bay extra fast if the protoss isn't fast expanding for fear of DTs or stargate units? If so, at what supply, game time, or after what unit/structure should I throw it down if he hasn't expanded yet? On August 02 2011 03:31 -Aura- wrote: Also, what is the counter to an early robo? Meaning, if I see he has one, should i switch my BO? Also, do all these questions warrant their own thread? Here is my current Build Order: + Show Spoiler + 10 Depot 12 Rax 13 Gas 15 OC 15 Marine 16 Rax 16 Reactor (first rax) 17 Depot 21 Depot 21 Tech lab (second rax) 27 Concussive Shells 27 Depot 36 Poke with marines, 2marauders and concussive shells 36 Stim 40 Expand 42 Depot 46 Factory 46 2nd Gas 46 (optional) 2 bunkers at Natural 51 OC 53 Ebay 60 Depot 60 Starport 60 Reactor (factory) 65 Depot 65 Infantry Weapons level 1 65 Turret at Natural 66 Depot 68 2nd Gas 68 Combat Shields 77 Rax x2 78 Depot x3 Expand Ghost Academy Infantry Armor level 1 armory ebay more rax etc. Thanks to anyone who bothered to read the whole thing. You shouldn't have a build order past like 25-30 ish food because food counts start to break down as fights happen. Have a build order in terms of "after I see X" or "once Y happens" since games tend not to go so smoothly. | ||
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galtdunn
United States977 Posts
On August 02 2011 03:31 -Aura- wrote: When going 2 Rax Expo, if he hasn't expanded should i even try to push up the ramp with my initial poke? Should I bring 2 scvs and set up a contain with bunkers at his natural? Or should I just retreat and expand and play defensively? I think the best play here is, if you can't gain any info, to poke the front ramp. If that doesn't reveal anything (i.e. you only see marines), then drop a scan. What do I do about a protoss who leaves 5-6 stalkers patrolling the edge of his main and is active enough to immediately snipe drops? Especially on maps like XNC where 5 stalkers can defend his whole main and he can just park his army by his natural, how can I harass? Double pronged harass if you can manage it. Drop in the shrubs outside his natural and stim in, then drop your second into his main wherever you can. Have both hotkeyed. The key to this is knowing where his army is though, you don't want to send in 8 marines to die. If I can't harass, it seems I automatically lose to equal macro, because of the deathball advantage. Asides for multi pronged drops, is there any other way to harass? I've seen late game reapers before from QXC have some effectiveness. Also, If he has some defenses at one base (say xel naga on one of the side bases - generally 4th or 5th base), send a chunk of your army and MAKE him respond to you. Should I throw down an engineering bay extra fast if the protoss isn't fast expanding for fear of DTs or stargate units? If so, at what supply, game time, or after what unit/structure should I throw it down if he hasn't expanded yet? Yes, after you see no expansion after about 6:30. Also, do all these questions warrant their own thread? not really. but no worries, you asked in the right place Thanks to anyone who bothered to read the whole thing. you're welcome. Sorry i couldn't answer all of them, but I didn't want to give you and bad answers. | ||
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galtdunn
United States977 Posts
On August 02 2011 03:45 KimJongChill wrote: What's better against archons, ultralisks or roaches? This would be in a late-game scenario where both tech options are viable. Archons are very good against ultras, especially when you have them in about equal numbers, say he has 5-6 archons and you have 6-8 ultras. Roaches are a better choice. Also, consider neural parasiting them. | ||
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
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